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400M isk for a PLEX?... really?

Author
Tivookz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#41 - 2011-11-04 10:22:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Tivookz
Well.. honestly; what's really stopping CCP from spawning isk and buying lets say 50%+ of all plexes that reach the market?

Before they created the plex market all GTC transactions happened privately on the forum and it would be a full time job to bid on them there.

Now that the plexes are ingame they could just spawn isk and buy all plexes.

They would never admit to it but.. what's really stopping them? It's not like it's in the EULA or anything that CCP aren't allowed to spawn isk.

CCP has been involved in shady business several times before, being greedy and all.

Would be surprised for one nano second if it really was like that.

Could also be a good reason why they suddenly care so much about removing isk farming bots, now that they effectively are the isk farmers.
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#42 - 2011-11-05 23:48:11 UTC
Tivookz wrote:
Well.. honestly; what's really stopping CCP from spawning isk and buying lets say 50%+ of all plexes that reach the market?

Only two things: whatever semblance of honesty they still might have on one hand and on the other hand, whatever semblance of foresight they might also still have.

By foresight, I mean the fact that in a sandbox game the USERS are the content, therefore artificially increasing prices by creating fake demand will lead to a decrease in "content", which would lead to a decrease in customer satisfaction, which will lead to a further decrease in "content", ending up in a situation where they make less money in the long run. A.K.A. "shooting yourself in the foot".

Then again, on the gripping hand, public perception (not to be confused with actual reality) is (still) that CCP lacks both those qualities something fierce.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#43 - 2011-11-06 00:30:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Hans Jagerblitzen
Xintri Ra'Virr wrote:
Sator Nyatt wrote:
rogueclone2 wrote:
at what point will ccp step in ?

CCP have no interest in letting plex get too high, because it will mean they will lose subscriptions since a certain percentage of people will refuse/can't pay real money for their accounts.


No you are wrong, If you doesn't pay for subscription with RL money you are worthless for CCP. Sorry about that.

CCP is a company that exist to make money ( just like every other in the world ) if they let you play for free by buying PLEX with ISK
that's because they are not very greedy. Every subscription payed with ISK is waste of profit for CCP.
I expect to be payed for my work, CCP either.
This is sad for many of us but it's the way that RL economy works.

I always wondered why CCP is so generous and keeps PLEX prices so low compared to ISK/h ratios in the game.
It's very easy to make 150-200m with little effort per day thease days.



I cannot believe how much confusion/ignorance there is in this thread, and in market discussions of all places!

Let me break this down - CCP profits, whether you pay for your account with isk/PLEX, or pay with your credit card.

Thats right, if you take your isk, buy a PLEX, and use it to pay for your account, CCP wins.

THERE IS NO PLAYING EVE FOR FREE. It doesnt exist. Those of you who buy PLEX with isk, are not playing for free. You're just trading your grind time for another persons RL cash, in a legal fashion.

CCP makes MORE money when you pay for your account in PLEX's. They WANT you to pay with isk, to buy a PLEX. The reason being, that it is much less efficient to pay for your account using PLEX than just using your credit card. You could pay $15 for a month of EvE, but someone has to pay $36 for a 60 day GTC to convert into two PLEX.

And I think this whole inflation thing is overblown. There is one real big reason why PLEX prices are skyrocketing - people ignorantly think they are "playing for free" when they buy a PLEX with isk. This false notion, along with the massive protests that surrounded Incarna, converted a bunch of credit-card paying customers (where CCP makes the least money) into PLEX paying customers (where CCP makes the MOST profit).

The players all pissed off about Incarna who refused to buy a year with their credit cards, are now spending isk to buy PLEX's instead, thinking they are somehow "sticking it to the man" by not using their hard earned cash. Instead, what they're doing is whoring their isk grind time out to someone willing to pay even MORE for a subscription than the protester would have to begin with.

To summarize, there is NOTHING wrong with the PLEX market, this is absolutely market supply and demand. CCP has not, and will not, intervene and lower prices. The only thing you all can do to lower the PLEX price, is to stop buying PLEX's.

The more you try to buy PLEX to pay for your account, the higher the price. If enough of you used your credit cards again, those profiting off those who use PLEX will have to lower their prices to find buyers.

This is nothing more than an "emorage" bubble in the economy, which will subside once the expansion is released. Everyone can relax. This expansion will appease the angry mobs, and people will start paying with their credit cards for a year at a time out of pure joy. PLEX demand will fall, and so will the price.

If you're looking for the cheapest way to pay for EvE, just pay with your credit card. Otherwise, you're at the mercy of those that will profit off your desire to "play for free", and you'll have to deal with their prices.

Even if you have a crappy job and are poor, you really can make more RL cash in an hour than you could grind an equivalent amount if isk when you do the math. You'll just have to decide what is more worth it - an hour or so of working IRL for cash, or several hours grinding isk to pay for an account. There is no cause for alarm, and CCP won't intervene other than to dangle freebie ships to entice people to pay for PLEX with cash, because everything is functioning as it should and they're making more money than ever.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#44 - 2011-11-06 00:44:05 UTC
Tivookz wrote:
Well.. honestly; what's really stopping CCP from spawning isk and buying lets say 50%+ of all plexes that reach the market?

Before they created the plex market all GTC transactions happened privately on the forum and it would be a full time job to bid on them there.

Now that the plexes are ingame they could just spawn isk and buy all plexes.

They would never admit to it but.. what's really stopping them? It's not like it's in the EULA or anything that CCP aren't allowed to spawn isk.

CCP has been involved in shady business several times before, being greedy and all.

Would be surprised for one nano second if it really was like that.

Could also be a good reason why they suddenly care so much about removing isk farming bots, now that they effectively are the isk farmers.


This is some total hogwash conspiracy bullshit.

CCP has zero inventive to jack up PLEX prices. They also have zero reason to lower them. The idea that they're involved with sketchy meddling is ridiculous.

If CCP raised PLEX prices like you are suggesting, it either drives customers away, or drives them to paying with their credit cards. As I explained already, credit card purchases make CCP the least profit per subscription.

If PLEX prices fall too low, than the advantage goes to real money traders. Right now, the PLEX system is doing what it was designed - providing a strong incentive to buy PLEX if you have RL cash and want more ingame money, instead of running to ebay.

If CCP meddled to lower the PLEX price, than they encourage more players to run to chinese isk farmers and botter isk sellers.

Really, there is no reason for CCP to meddle either way. They have wisely chosen to let the players decide the price - both because this is a game that is about the free market, and because they profit more when you use PLEX to pay for your account instead of a credit card. So don't be surprised if you see them stay hands off whether the PLEX price is 100mil, or 1 billion isk.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#45 - 2011-11-06 02:01:40 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:


This is some total hogwash conspiracy bullshit.

CCP has zero inventive to jack up PLEX prices. They also have zero reason to lower them. The idea that they're involved with sketchy meddling is ridiculous.

If CCP raised PLEX prices like you are suggesting, it either drives customers away, or drives them to paying with their credit cards. As I explained already, credit card purchases make CCP the least profit per subscription.

If PLEX prices fall too low, than the advantage goes to real money traders. Right now, the PLEX system is doing what it was designed - providing a strong incentive to buy PLEX if you have RL cash and want more ingame money, instead of running to ebay.

If CCP meddled to lower the PLEX price, than they encourage more players to run to chinese isk farmers and botter isk sellers.

Really, there is no reason for CCP to meddle either way. They have wisely chosen to let the players decide the price - both because this is a game that is about the free market, and because they profit more when you use PLEX to pay for your account instead of a credit card. So don't be surprised if you see them stay hands off whether the PLEX price is 100mil, or 1 billion isk.


I agree. If you look closely at the traded volumes for PLEX in the major hubs, the volume has been picking up in the past months. Since the price is moving up as well, this increase in volume means that people are chasing PLEX and paying the ask price - for whatever reason, there is increased demand for PLEX. Of course this is compounded by human greed since I am sure more than one trader with deep pockets has seen the upward move in PLEX prices and decided to add to the demand buy buying them up now while they are still "cheap".

At some point (probably after the expansion) I expect the speculators who are holding PLEX to dump it on the market which should halt the price increase. At that point anyone who plans on buying PLEX from CCP for cash will rush and do so while they can still get lots of ISK for their dollar/euro/whatever, further adding to supply. And we'll see a move back towards traditional prices.
Salah Loveless
Deep Space Exploration and Settlement INC
#46 - 2011-11-06 07:36:56 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
[quote=Hans Jagerblitzen]

This is some total hogwash conspiracy bullshit.

CCP has zero inventive to jack up PLEX prices. They also have zero reason to lower them. The idea that they're involved with sketchy meddling is ridiculous.


Not that I think that CCP is doing this but it would be profitable.

If you had 1000 players 200 pay for their account with plex they would profit the cost of 1000 accounts for the cycle

Now say CCP bought 100 of those plexes back thus destroying them without turning them into game time.

The 1000 accounts stay active but CCP makes an additinal 100 plex worth of $$ as they have taken said plex from the game without it being redemed for game time.

These are small numbers but even if CCP only removed 100plex over all that is $1500 extra income a month $54000 a year so by no means an unbelivable event.

Once again not claiming this IS HAPPENING just that there is far from zero reason to do so.
Companion Qube
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2011-11-06 07:53:43 UTC
IceFyre S18 wrote:
Well see, but I think 1B plex is not much of a problem for average player.
Having 10 alts is different thing tho.

Get out of my account management page.
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
#48 - 2011-11-07 23:34:44 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
[quote=Xintri Ra'Virr]

I cannot believe how much confusion/ignorance there is in this thread, and in market discussions of all places!

Let me break this down - CCP profits, whether you pay for your account with isk/PLEX, or pay with your credit card.

Thats right, if you take your isk, buy a PLEX, and use it to pay for your account, CCP wins.

THERE IS NO PLAYING EVE FOR FREE. It doesnt exist. Those of you who buy PLEX with isk, are not playing for free. You're just trading your grind time for another persons RL cash, in a legal fashion.

CCP makes MORE money when you pay for your account in PLEX's. They WANT you to pay with isk, to buy a PLEX. The reason being, that it is much less efficient to pay for your account using PLEX than just using your credit card. You could pay $15 for a month of EvE, but someone has to pay $36 for a 60 day GTC to convert into two PLEX.

.......


Even if you have a crappy job and are poor, you really can make more RL cash in an hour than you could grind an equivalent amount if isk when you do the math. You'll just have to decide what is more worth it - an hour or so of working IRL for cash, or several hours grinding isk to pay for an account. There is no cause for alarm, and CCP won't intervene other than to dangle freebie ships to entice people to pay for PLEX with cash, because everything is functioning as it should and they're making more money than ever.


I make over the median US family income.

I would gladly sell my isk /plex to CCP for 5$ per plex IF they wanted to buy _their_ intellectual property from me.

I will not sell Their in game property, to a third party. And I am not one that really supports the blanket enforcablity of Eulas (to the extent that eulas side step traditional consumer agreements property sales... but thats a debate for another thread)

The point is that I do believe that until courts tell us otherwise or until they on their own accord permit it, I would be breaking the law and the conditions they sold me sercices if I were to sell the isk via RMT

So, I can say definitevely that some plex that one player creates at a cost that cost them $17 become worth far less once they are created.

I can gurantee you that plex are worth substantially less than $17 dollars a piece if there were a legal open market to sell them for $ instead of using them for game time.

I can't tell you where that price would eventually settle but it would be less..

Like I said.. I'd sell about 250 of them for 5$ each. I'd rather have $1,250 than 120 billion isk at this point but only only only if I could do it with their blessing. I am 100% sure that there are at least a few hundred people who would sell more than that to ccp at that rate.

ISk is game money, plex are game assets that let me be an internet spaceman for a nother month.... if I want to and are not worth any more than a specualation that one day their might be a legal way to get someting of real $ out of them.

.

Krono Black
Inferior By Design
#49 - 2011-11-08 22:06:48 UTC
really.... asking CCP to step in and set a cap? name one item on the market that ccp can force me to sell at a certain price? if i want to sell a ship for 1 isk i can. if i want to sell a plex for 10 billion isk i can do that too. grow up. its a market ccp cant step in and force people on the market to sell stuff at prices they want just because some people are whining too hard. they will just find other ways to get you to buy the plex.
Salah Loveless
Deep Space Exploration and Settlement INC
#50 - 2011-11-09 09:43:56 UTC
Krono Black wrote:
really.... asking CCP to step in and set a cap? name one item on the market that ccp can force me to sell at a certain price? if i want to sell a ship for 1 isk i can. if i want to sell a plex for 10 billion isk i can do that too. grow up. its a market ccp cant step in and force people on the market to sell stuff at prices they want just because some people are whining too hard. they will just find other ways to get you to buy the plex.



LOL They most certainly can. Heck they COULD make it so a percent of all items manufactured are placed on the market at a set price without players even getting to see them. However just because they CAN do something doesn't mean they should and would.

The higher the price the better for CCP because the more ISK one can bring in the more likely someone is to buy plex for that easy cash for isk trade. If they got to 50Bil I might actully buy some plex to sell. CCP would be more worried over PLEX becomeing worthless than highly valued and high priced. Seeing that the buy orders are only a mil or 2 below the sell orders their are far more buyers willing to pay for the isk than their are sellers trying to buy isk and as long as isk buyers out number isk sellers CCP is in a good place
Pinaculus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2011-11-10 14:05:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinaculus
I don't understand what's so complicated.

ISK is easier to earn in-game than it used to be (Incursions + Wormholes + PI)
Cash is harder to earn IRL than it used to be (High unemployment + Flat wage growth)
The new "exchange rate" of Cash/ISK has changed because of these things.
Slightly shrinking player population means there are fewer new players looking for a leg up and creating new PLEX.

I'm also guessing that speculators are expecting the price to go even higher, and increasing demand/restricting supply that way as well.

If the Vinter Expansion is awesome, expect PLEX prices to drop like a stone and slowly go back up as people find their footing. If it sucks, PLEX will skyrocket as people burn up their spare ISK on subscription fees while they wait to see what CCP does next. Then they'll quit, and PLEX won't be worth diddly.

That's my take on it, anyway.

I know sometimes it's difficult to realize just how much you spend on incidental things each month or year, but seriously, EVE is very cheap entertainment compared to most things... If you are a smoker, smoke one less pack a week and pay for EVE, with money left over to pick up a cheap bundle of flowers for the EVE widow upstairs.

Tomak dalTomaki
Doomheim
#52 - 2011-11-11 02:47:07 UTC
Paying with PLEX is only "easier" if you have more time than money (or the ability to generate a lot of ISK without inordinate amounts of grind). You incur a huge real-life "opportunity cost" when you grind in EVE -- even if you only make minimum wage in the US ($7.25/hr), you make far more for your time in real life than you do in EVE. Even an unemployed person isn't getting EVE for "free" by using PLEX -- they're simply spending time rather than money.

PLEX was a pretty smart move by CCP as a way to sanctify RMT without ruining the EVE economy. It convinced a whole lot of people that they could play for "free", without these people recognizing that a) every PLEX was bought and paid for with real money, and b) more demand for more PLEX means more real-life money for CCP. It doesn't matter who pays real money for the PLEX, or who buys PLEX for ISK; to CCP, more PLEX means more real-life money.

This is why the conspiracy-theorists aren't thinking it through. CCP actually benefits when PLEX gets cheaper, because it reinforces the PLEX-paying player's perception that they are getting a steal of a deal. When PLEX rises, fewer PLEXes move on the market and thus less money flows into CCP's coffers.

Also: price-caps or other controls on PLEX won't work because price-controls *never* work, either in EVE or in real life. Instead of making a good or service cheaper, price-controls drive the good off the market (because producers won't continue to manufacture a good or provide a service at a loss).

Pinaculus wrote:
I don't understand what's so complicated.

ISK is easier to earn in-game than it used to be (Incursions + Wormholes + PI)
Cash is harder to earn IRL than it used to be (High unemployment + Flat wage growth)
The new "exchange rate" of Cash/ISK has changed because of these things.
Slightly shrinking player population means there are fewer new players looking for a leg up and creating new PLEX.

I'm also guessing that speculators are expecting the price to go even higher, and increasing demand/restricting supply that way as well.

If the Vinter Expansion is awesome, expect PLEX prices to drop like a stone and slowly go back up as people find their footing. If it sucks, PLEX will skyrocket as people burn up their spare ISK on subscription fees while they wait to see what CCP does next. Then they'll quit, and PLEX won't be worth diddly.

That's my take on it, anyway.

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#53 - 2011-11-11 09:43:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Hans Jagerblitzen
Pinaculus wrote:
I don't understand what's so complicated.

ISK is easier to earn in-game than it used to be (Incursions + Wormholes + PI)
Cash is harder to earn IRL than it used to be (High unemployment + Flat wage growth)
The new "exchange rate" of Cash/ISK has changed because of these things.
Slightly shrinking player population means there are fewer new players looking for a leg up and creating new PLEX.

I'm also guessing that speculators are expecting the price to go even higher, and increasing demand/restricting supply that way as well.

If the Vinter Expansion is awesome, expect PLEX prices to drop like a stone and slowly go back up as people find their footing. If it sucks, PLEX will skyrocket as people burn up their spare ISK on subscription fees while they wait to see what CCP does next. Then they'll quit, and PLEX won't be worth diddly.

That's my take on it, anyway.


QFT.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#54 - 2011-11-11 10:08:40 UTC
i have made a pretty penny so far which i used to buy about 50 plexes with the isk I made. back then I paid 320mil for all of them.

When I read threads like this from people who do not understand how supply and demand work, or that they believe they are playing for free.

I just have one thing to say.

Educate yourself on how economies work. After readin your gibbrish I will hold on to the 50 plexes I have and hope that the little it is in the broader scheme of PLEXES makes that extra little difference to force you to pay 550mil for every single PLEX I have.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk

flakeys
Doomheim
#55 - 2011-11-11 10:11:32 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:
i or that they believe they are playing for free.





But i AM playing for free Roll

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.

Via Shivon
#56 - 2011-11-11 10:39:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Via Shivon
Cannibal Kane wrote:
i have made a pretty penny so far which i used to buy about 50 plexes with the isk I made. back then I paid 320mil for all of them.

When I read threads like this from people who do not understand how supply and demand work, or that they believe they are playing for free.

I just have one thing to say.

Educate yourself on how economies work. After readin your gibbrish I will hold on to the 50 plexes I have and hope that the little it is in the broader scheme of PLEXES makes that extra little difference to force you to pay 550mil for every single PLEX I have.


and then you will be soo happy pro trader?
parking 16 bil for 6 month is waste of profit - you could have earned ALLOT more with other items in that time Lol


edit: if you didnt sell them you made exactly 0 pennys! tomorrow plex crashes (wont happen) and you loose money
Aethis Rex
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#57 - 2011-11-11 21:33:40 UTC
As Tegh from ISK would say; The bowl that is eve is over flowing with igame isk, because the faucet is too large for the sink. Just like RL econ, when there is too much currency, inflation takes place. Plex's time cards are the best evaluator of ingame inflation, because it does not take any ingame resources to create. What Eve needs is a bigger sink, a massive war or more loss in incursions or missions to lower the isk bowl.
Aethis Rex
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#58 - 2011-11-11 21:35:20 UTC
Tivookz wrote:
Well.. honestly; what's really stopping CCP from spawning isk and buying lets say 50%+ of all plexes that reach the market?

Before they created the plex market all GTC transactions happened privately on the forum and it would be a full time job to bid on them there.

Now that the plexes are ingame they could just spawn isk and buy all plexes.

They would never admit to it but.. what's really stopping them? It's not like it's in the EULA or anything that CCP aren't allowed to spawn isk.

CCP has been involved in shady business several times before, being greedy and all.

Would be surprised for one nano second if it really was like that.

Could also be a good reason why they suddenly care so much about removing isk farming bots, now that they effectively are the isk farmers.

STFU...
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
#59 - 2011-11-11 21:35:28 UTC
flakeys wrote:
Cannibal Kane wrote:
i or that they believe they are playing for free.





But i AM playing for free Roll



Me too,

And while my isk might have taken 1000 hours of game time to earn they still have no cost in real life to me (well unles you want to say that anytime I spent having fun had an oppotunity cost becaue i could have been working more of my waking hours).

I had FUN earning my isk.

Not everyone likes to earn isk, but hose that do can sell them for a rate that would equate to 25 cents an hour and still rationally find that an excellent value.. maybe call it more of a financial windfall.

Plex might be worth real $ to people who consider buying them,, but they can be worth very little real money to many other players.

Plex cost players real money to create yet using those earned playing the game is nothing like me spending 17$ each.

What ccp gets from playiers buying and turnin around and selling the plex for isk is real $

What they get from me in exchange for giving me game time is a way for them to transfer money to people who want to buy it with cash and by not flooding the virtual market with more Isk than has been earned via game play fountains they create and regulate the flow of.

.

Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
#60 - 2011-11-11 21:59:29 UTC
Diomedes Calypso wrote:
flakeys wrote:
Cannibal Kane wrote:
i or that they believe they are playing for free.





But i AM playing for free Roll



Me too,

And while my isk might have taken 1000 hours of game time to earn they still have no cost in real life to me (well unles you want to say that anytime I spent having fun had an oppotunity cost becaue i could have been working more of my waking hours).


So you weren't actually playing for free, by your own words. Work is not the only other thing you can be doing with your waking (or sleeping) hours.