Ships & Modules

Hey man, good to see you back again as well. And well said.

This whole thread is based on some very strange ideas about what PvP is. Every time you see Canes in armour fleets you know which ships are going to be primaried. They then can't keep up with Drakes and Harbies outrange them. Canes make excellent arty gangs and they're excellent for small gangs when shield fit, but even then they have a pitiful tank compared to Drakes.

As soon as the numbers start to climb it becomes almost irrelevant what you fly so long at it's well tanked and you have enough of them.

Big fleet action was almost always armour based, due to the excellent Amarr BS ships. The only shield based big gangs were the Drake blobs and the Mael alpha fleets.

You do see Gallente ships in big armour gangs, mostly Megas, and they're about as evenly represented there, currently, as Pests are. With the fitting changes, Megas will probably be even more strongly present in armour fleets.

This leaves the Gallente BCs. The Myrm is currently competitive in small gangs, but is almost useless in big gangs. It would be A LOT better if it had 100mb drone bandwidth as 4 sentries or heavies in ranged or close combat would be pretty epic.

It would make the Myrm somewhat OP in solo or small gangs, though, but that would be ok, because Gallente have been bad for very long.

The Brutix shares the active tanking bonus of the Myrm without the low slots to use it well or the range or speed to be competitive apart from the shield gank fit, which is actually better than the Cane at close range.

A faster more agile Brutix (which is happening) with lower cap consumption and blaster fitting requirements (which are also happening) will make gank Brutixes with a full neutron stack and 5 x ec600 medium ecm drones very competitive in small gangs

The Gallente will still not have a good big gang BC, however, although a resistance fit rail Brutix might be much better after the changes. I don't know. I think it would probably still require an extra low slot to be useful.

I am NOT talking about cruisers, hacs or frigates (or the soon to be utterly OP dessies) here. The Gallente have two usable cruisers (Thorax and Vexor), which will soon be even better with the improved speed, agility and reduced fitting requirements and any complaints about that can GTFO. The same goes for frigates. Any moaning and whining there is childish and needs to go back to mommy.

One thing that gets ignored every single time the Gallente discussion comes up, is the big drone bays of Gallente Blaster boats (not talking about Myrm or Vexor here). The only cruiser with a 50m3 drone bay is the Thorax. The fit I used with great succes used the 5 x medium ecm drones, which effectively give a Thorax its own small falcon built in. The same goes for the Brutix and the Mega can do 125mb or 5 heavies, which adds to its dps considerably.

Sadly, after all is said and done, the people baying for buffing Gallente even more than they currently are will leave Caldari railboats still as useless as they are today. Slow, small drone bays, outranged and out dps'ed by the Drake at ranges where it matters. Cruise missiles will still not be used in combat and Torps will still be only used by Phoons for lack of anything better or by SBs which don't really figure into this conversation.

But all one reads is poor, poor Gallente.

Um. . . I did in the post. With all the justification and reasoning. Mini ships should do the lowest dps even with max skills, and in exchange they get ships that skirmish very well. And if you are not going to respond, then don't bother. The choice is pretty clear to me - either give every race the same degree of flexibility and fitting variations or balance them accordingly (i.e. remove the flavor and balance through standarization). Btw, arti is not the problem - art is difficult to fit and fills the high alpha/low dps niche well. Its ACs that are broken when married to the ships.

lazers should be the best turret platform because Amarr are the gank and tank race. They trade midslots for lowslots, and those lowslots are used to either fit tank or gank or a combination of both. The suffer the most for fitting mwds due to the cap penalty, so mobility is not their strong suit (there are exceptions, but they remain exceptions), and basically thei entire ships is tungsten and lazer. Mini weapon systems are not equal, they overcome that gank and tank with flexibility, a myriad of weapon systems. Anyway, refer to my previous posts for the reasons.

I have posted two relatively long posts arguing my point.

TEs don't work the same for everyone. . . they just don't. When you push falloff out on mini ships and raise the base optimal - you are doing a lot more to improve dps for ACs then any other weapon system. Again, when coupled with the wide range of falloff bonused ships (that are also high speed) the benefits of TEs on minmatar ships is evidently greater. Which is why you see them fitted on mini ships more then any other. Also, you don't fit TEs on Amarr ships because it does not fit with the gank and tank, you may fit them on gallente, but with marginal success since falloff on Gallente is an afterthought. Falloff for Minmatar is damage and options. But you have not argued against this.

A little disappointing Lang - I don't think you are really interested in the debate at all.

winter expansion in short: ccp can make matar even more op... awesome...

Because removing a falloff penalty from a terrible ammunition type which nobody is going to use even after the change is making minmatar more op... how, exactly?

Nerf scorch, nerf projectiles, suddenly hybrids look good again.

This is a complete myth. The most SP-intensive race is easily Caldari. Minmatar compete with Amarr for being least SP-intensive.

So a twat like wilkus can feel accomplished.

Oh! You mean the Tornado which isn't going to be released for another month, is still subject to modification, and which uses large projectiles with no tracking bonus? That tornado?

Please, oh please, try shooting my gallente cruiser/myrm with Hail L. I beg you.

(To give you an idea: With dual webs and a tracking computer loaded with tracking speed, you will still be missing a battleship if you're orbiting it at 2000m, and that's using fusion L. Hail is -30% tracking, for barely any more DPS than republic fleet fusion. And you have the idiocy to call it "overpowered" when they remove a falloff penalty from it?)

There are many reasons why people have accused Minmatar of being OP. This is the stupidest one I've heard yet.

Assertions:
- Mini ships should do lowest damage
- Mini ships should skirmish well
- Lasers should be the best
- Amarr is the tank and spank race
- Amarr is hurt most of all races by fitting a MWD
- Amarr have no flexibility
- Mini weapons should not be equal
- Mini ships are flexible

Justications:
(null)

Your entire line of thinking is based around the idea that nobody should approach Amarr in tank and spank. The reality of the situation is that Gallente is more tank and spank than Amarr is. Gallente hurts more from MWDs than Amarr ever has. This is pretty easy to reason out as well, given that Gallente have to actually use the damn thing just to get into range to fire. So do Minmatar - ACs and missiles have a pretty low effective range (despite your whining about TEs).

And even more amusing is the fact that DPS is the primary determiner of who wins a skirmish. It is absolutely critical to get the DPS in, get the kill, and get the **** out before the blob lands.



Three things:
- Optimal is rather significantly stronger than falloff.
- The optimal on ACs is pretty damn low... while it does affect the numbers (of course), it also isn't worth talking about most of the time.
- Nerfing TEs heavily nerfs blaster boats and mildly nerfs shield laser ships, which makes me very much against it.



Two things:
- You see them fitted on Minnie ships because they have extra lows and can be fit with a passable shield tank. Putting a pinch more CPU on the Harby would make it a no brainer to do the same thing to it.
- Blasters and Gallente are very much falloff centered. I'm a bit shocked that you're claiming its an "afterthought", and IMO this shows great ignorance of the game on your part.
- Maybe you don't fit TEs on Amarr ships, but I know a lot of people do. In fact, for a long time I remember the standard Zealot, Harby, NOmen, and Omen fits all had TEs.



I find it hilarious that you are constantly complaining about Minmatar falloff being equal to "options" and ignoring the fact that Amarr optimal is the same thing -- except many times better. You keep talking about how Minnies can not use weapon slots and fill them up with neuts or RRs or something - which is notably something that you too can do as Amarr.



Dude, ******* sorry. I guess I'll take a break from my 110+ hour work week more often just to poast more on the forumz and debate with you.

-Liang

Huh, that sounds pretty wild. I kinda hope that doesn't come to TQ. Though I admit I'm taking what Naomi says at face value, which is typically something only a brain dead person would do. It seems kinda corroborated by the other posters though.....

Well anyway, this wouldn't be an example of Projectiles being OP but an example of a specific ship hull being OP.

-Liang