These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Assembly Hall

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Proposal] Remove Datacore requirements for invention in Null Security Space

Author
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#1 - 2013-05-30 01:52:13 UTC
Background: Currently the nullsec industry situation suffers from sub-par outpost services and the results of a complex T2 material supply chain. This results in a large amount of materials and items being built in high-security space then shipped to Nullsec. This situation creates dependency on high-sec materials and markets for a region of space that CCP intends to be self-sufficient.

Proposal Intent: T2 production involves four general bottlenecks to complete; BPC copying, Invention using Datacores and Data Interfaces (not consumed), PI materials; and Moon materials. This proposal only seeks to correct the availability of invention in nullsec thus reducing the complexity of T2 production in nullsec to only obtaining advanced moon materials. This change would move towards CCPs stated goal of nullsec self-sufficiency in a unique way and leave high-sec largely unaffected.

Facts:

  • CCP's stated intent is to create conditions for Nullsec to be 99% self-sufficient.
  • Invention requires a racial data interface and typically two types of datacores to complete.
  • Datacores are primarily provided by R&D Agents and the Faction Warfare LP store.
  • Datacores can be obtained through hacking randomly.

Assumptions:

  • CCP wants to find ways to remove "passive" income from datacore "farming".
  • Null security space will continue to have a high demand for T2 items.
  • Inventors do not typically sell T2 BPCs for profit but will more likely use them for their own production.
  • Datacores obtained via hacking sites will not sufficiently supply T2 invention demands.
  • High-sec invention will not be adversely affected by improving other ways to invent T2 items.

Possible Courses of Action:

  1. Allow datacore free invention only in Caldari Research stations.
  2. Pros: Caldari outposts are typically the least built outposts as they offer bonuses that are largely redundant to Mobile Laboratories. This change would provide an incentive to construct this outpost. Additionally, this change would likely be easier to complete. Finally, limited access to these outposts would not adversely affect T2 invention in high-sec.
    Cons: Outposts are not built quickly and incentives may not translate into more Caldari outposts constructed. Additionally, pilots without access to these outposts would not obtain this bonus.
  3. Adjust all outposts to allow invention and allow datacore free invention in all nullsec Outposts
  4. Pros: Access to datacore free invention more easily available to most nullsec residents - implementation would be equal.
    Cons: Removes incentive to this new feature.
  5. Allow existing Mobile Laboratories
  6. Pros: All existing pilots would have access to new feature through existing POS modules - implementation would be equal. Additionally, POSs are subject to attack and destruction. Finally, outposts would be unchanged and not require new construction for feature access.
    Cons: Blanket type implementation that would apply to everyone without much of a tradeoff. High-sec and Low-sec POSs would need special coding to prohibit this feature.
  7. Add an Industry Upgrade to allow datacore free invention
  8. Pros: Industry upgrades fit into the current sov system and would require risk to ship upgrades to the system. Additionally, it would add more variety to the sovereignty upgrade system.
    Cons: Would limit access to feature by only those who have sovereignty. This may be also difficult to implement.
  9. Add a new POS Mobile Laboratory such as "Efficient Mobile Invention Laboratory"
  10. This new module would have no more than 5 production lines for invention only, require only a data interface and blueprint copies to complete invention jobs. The power grid and CPU requirements would be on par with current laboratories. This module could only be anchored in null security space.
    Pros: The additional module would require trade-offs in module placement in the POS due to CPU and power grid requirements. Additionally, the new module is in-line with existing modules and coding structures that restrict anchoring by security status.
    Cons: Wormholes would have this feature as well and may negatively impact high-sec invention due to their access to empire systems.

Recommended Course of Action: Recommend adding a new mobile laboratory as it fits within the existing anchoring limited POS modules and supports the most access to this option within current risk mechanics. However, possibly combing the lab with a sovereignty upgrade to anchor the new laboratory would be required to limit the effect of WH space datacore free invention.

The overall end-state would further remove the influence of datacore income (stated CCP goal) and improve the ability for null security industry to become more self-sufficient (stated CCP goal).

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder

Strom Crendraven
The H8teful Eight
#2 - 2013-05-30 06:03:39 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
Background: Currently the nullsec industry situation suffers from sub-par outpost services and the results of a complex T2 material supply chain. This results in a large amount of materials and items being built in high-security space then shipped to Nullsec. This situation creates dependency on high-sec materials and markets for a region of space that CCP intends to be self-sufficient.

Proposal Intent: T2 production involves four general bottlenecks to complete; BPC copying, Invention using Datacores and Data Interfaces (not consumed), PI materials; and Moon materials. This proposal only seeks to correct the availability of invention in nullsec thus reducing the complexity of T2 production in nullsec to only obtaining advanced moon materials. This change would move towards CCPs stated goal of nullsec self-sufficiency in a unique way and leave high-sec largely unaffected.

Facts:

  • CCP's stated intent is to create conditions for Nullsec to be 99% self-sufficient.
  • Invention requires a racial data interface and typically two types of datacores to complete.
  • Datacores are primarily provided by R&D Agents and the Faction Warfare LP store.
  • Datacores can be obtained through hacking randomly.

Assumptions:

  • CCP wants to find ways to remove "passive" income from datacore "farming".
  • Null security space will continue to have a high demand for T2 items.
  • Inventors do not typically sell T2 BPCs for profit but will more likely use them for their own production.
  • Datacores obtained via hacking sites will not sufficiently supply T2 invention demands.
  • High-sec invention will not be adversely affected by improving other ways to invent T2 items.

Possible Courses of Action:

  1. Allow datacore free invention only in Caldari Research stations.
  2. Pros: Caldari outposts are typically the least built outposts as they offer bonuses that are largely redundant to Mobile Laboratories. This change would provide an incentive to construct this outpost. Additionally, this change would likely be easier to complete. Finally, limited access to these outposts would not adversely affect T2 invention in high-sec.
    Cons: Outposts are not built quickly and incentives may not translate into more Caldari outposts constructed. Additionally, pilots without access to these outposts would not obtain this bonus.
  3. Adjust all outposts to allow invention and allow datacore free invention in all nullsec Outposts
  4. Pros: Access to datacore free invention more easily available to most nullsec residents - implementation would be equal.
    Cons: Removes incentive to this new feature.
  5. Allow existing Mobile Laboratories
  6. Pros: All existing pilots would have access to new feature through existing POS modules - implementation would be equal. Additionally, POSs are subject to attack and destruction. Finally, outposts would be unchanged and not require new construction for feature access.
    Cons: Blanket type implementation that would apply to everyone without much of a tradeoff. High-sec and Low-sec POSs would need special coding to prohibit this feature.
  7. Add an Industry Upgrade to allow datacore free invention
  8. Pros: Industry upgrades fit into the current sov system and would require risk to ship upgrades to the system. Additionally, it would add more variety to the sovereignty upgrade system.
    Cons: Would limit access to feature by only those who have sovereignty. This may be also difficult to implement.
  9. Add a new POS Mobile Laboratory such as "Efficient Mobile Invention Laboratory"
  10. This new module would have no more than 5 production lines for invention only, require only a data interface and blueprint copies to complete invention jobs. The power grid and CPU requirements would be on par with current laboratories. This module could only be anchored in null security space.
    Pros: The additional module would require trade-offs in module placement in the POS due to CPU and power grid requirements. Additionally, the new module is in-line with existing modules and coding structures that restrict anchoring by security status.
    Cons: Wormholes would have this feature as well and may negatively impact high-sec invention due to their access to empire systems.

Recommended Course of Action: Recommend adding a new mobile laboratory as it fits within the existing anchoring limited POS modules and supports the most access to this option within current risk mechanics. However, possibly combing the lab with a sovereignty upgrade to anchor the new laboratory would be required to limit the effect of WH space datacore free invention.

The overall end-state would further remove the influence of datacore income (stated CCP goal) and improve the ability for null security industry to become more self-sufficient (stated CCP goal).


Well since Hi-sec can only be 80% self sufficient after the ice belt changes coming in this ridiculous expansion i'd say you are already ahead of most of the rest of the universe or OMG forbid you have to leave null to pick up something you need for invention. Got a deal for you, I will farm datacores and trade you for ice product. I'll even deliver.
Laura Dexx
Now Look What You've Made Me Do
#3 - 2013-05-30 08:44:59 UTC
As the previous poster said, come the patch you will already have more than enough advantages over any other sec level. You really don't need any more.
Rex Driller
Legion of Niflheim
#4 - 2013-05-30 08:49:59 UTC
Strom Crendraven wrote:


Well since Hi-sec can only be 80% self sufficient after the ice belt changes coming in this ridiculous expansion i'd say you are already ahead of most of the rest of the universe or OMG forbid you have to leave null to pick up something you need for invention. Got a deal for you, I will farm datacores and trade you for ice product. I'll even deliver.


The 80% is galaxy wide, high sec ice amount is five times the needs of hig sec POSs.
Strom Crendraven
The H8teful Eight
#5 - 2013-05-30 10:58:47 UTC
Rex Driller wrote:
Strom Crendraven wrote:


Well since Hi-sec can only be 80% self sufficient after the ice belt changes coming in this ridiculous expansion i'd say you are already ahead of most of the rest of the universe or OMG forbid you have to leave null to pick up something you need for invention. Got a deal for you, I will farm datacores and trade you for ice product. I'll even deliver.


The 80% is galaxy wide, high sec ice amount is five times the needs of hig sec POSs.


Facepalm, why do I waste good sarcasm here. Nevermind Rex you wouldn't get it. The point I was trying to make is a big part of the changes in the upcoming expansion are targeted toward improving null sec mining while heavily d**k stomping hi-sec miners. Now as usual CCP's supremely flawed execution of intent will most likely end up screwing both null and hi-sec miners the fact remains that null sec is getting the best of this expansion and asking for more favoritism is unlikely to garner any sympathy from the other sectors where some feel they are getting shafted during this expansion. Also asking that an item needed for invention be exempted in one particular area of space only is just ridiculous and comparable to saying I think I should be able to make POS fuel in my WH without ice products because I don't want to go out and procure them. So once again my opinion on this subject would be hell no.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#6 - 2013-05-30 15:26:08 UTC
Strom Crendraven wrote:
Rex Driller wrote:
Strom Crendraven wrote:


Well since Hi-sec can only be 80% self sufficient after the ice belt changes coming in this ridiculous expansion i'd say you are already ahead of most of the rest of the universe or OMG forbid you have to leave null to pick up something you need for invention. Got a deal for you, I will farm datacores and trade you for ice product. I'll even deliver.


The 80% is galaxy wide, high sec ice amount is five times the needs of hig sec POSs.


Facepalm, why do I waste good sarcasm here. Nevermind Rex you wouldn't get it. The point I was trying to make is a big part of the changes in the upcoming expansion are targeted toward improving null sec mining while heavily d**k stomping hi-sec miners. Now as usual CCP's supremely flawed execution of intent will most likely end up screwing both null and hi-sec miners the fact remains that null sec is getting the best of this expansion and asking for more favoritism is unlikely to garner any sympathy from the other sectors where some feel they are getting shafted during this expansion. Also asking that an item needed for invention be exempted in one particular area of space only is just ridiculous and comparable to saying I think I should be able to make POS fuel in my WH without ice products because I don't want to go out and procure them. So once again my opinion on this subject would be hell no.


lol...

I'm sorry, but if you're complaining that highsec miners are getting it "hard" from CCP, we could simply point to the mining barge buffs. Crimewatch 2.0 also helps out too! We could point out the mission loot & drone poo changes. Just because ice mining is moving to anomalies doesn't undermine the strong boons CCP has given miners these last few expansions, and frankly, the ice mining changes are probably a boon to ice miners that actually play (rather than park an alt in a belt and come back an hour later to empty the cargo!). Why? Because ice prices will go up, and ice mining is no longer the pathetically easy-mode form of mining that enables any schlep at work to run an EvE client in the background accruing ice!

/derail... my next post will attack the Op's suggestions!

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#7 - 2013-05-30 15:59:17 UTC
CCP doesn't want nullsec to be 100% efficient. They want highsec dependent on nullsec, and nullsec dependent on highsec. Now, there vision has not reached full fruition because it's generally easier to import everything from nullsec to highsec! There are many reasons for this, but one of the larger reasons were the lack of low end minerals in nullsec. Importing minerals to build stuff was inefficient compared to simply building stuff in highsec and importing the pre-built ships/modules. The point of this paragraph is that CCP doesn't want nullsec to be "completely" self-sufficient. In general, the 99% self-sufficient remark was when viewing materials in terms of volume. The last visage I read up on suggested "bulky" materials should be avaiable locally , but small materials should be imported.

Trit: Size (0.01). Average used in a week, 25m. Average needed for a month 100m. Amount brought in by a JF: 30m. <-- Bottleneck!
Datacore: Size (1 m3). Average used in a week, 10k. Average needed for a Month 40k. Amount brought in by a JF: 300k+. <-- Not a bottleneck!.

Next: Passive datacore farming is no longer a major source of income. Datacores are now primarily supplied by Faction Warfare LP (hence why they are cheaper too!) If we make parts of invention completely independent of datacores, you harm faction warfare lowsec (not highsec), and frankly, I see no reason to nerf this FW income!

Finally, while I fully support a boon to nullsec production, I certainly don't support it at an indestructible, safe Outposts... If anyone wants a boon to production, it should happen at a POS!!!!! POS modules already have a sec-status limitation feature built into it, which makes this easier to implement! Simply create "invention labs", "copy labs", and/or "advanced assembly arrays" that can only be anchored in 0.3 sec status or lower. Have the invention labs give a 5-10% improved invention probability or maybe a straight +2 ME to all invented BPCs (check for balance). Give similar potent boons to manufacturing and copying labs, but for the love of god make sure people have to put crap in the labs so it's at risk!!!! There is very little at risk in an Outpost!
yodayblack
AirHogs
Hogs Collective
#8 - 2013-05-30 22:01:43 UTC
Dear god this has to be a troll.

No you can no have more things given to you. Deal with it. Buy your datacores like everyone else. Null sec has way to many free things you dont need free datacores as well.
Uronksur Suth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2013-05-31 00:05:28 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
Background: Currently the nullsec industry situation suffers from sub-par outpost services and the results of a complex T2 material supply chain. This results in a large amount of materials and items being built in high-security space then shipped to Nullsec. This situation creates dependency on high-sec materials and markets for a region of space that CCP intends to be self-sufficient.

Proposal Intent: T2 production involves four general bottlenecks to complete; BPC copying, Invention using Datacores and Data Interfaces (not consumed), PI materials; and Moon materials. This proposal only seeks to correct the availability of invention in nullsec thus reducing the complexity of T2 production in nullsec to only obtaining advanced moon materials. This change would move towards CCPs stated goal of nullsec self-sufficiency in a unique way and leave high-sec largely unaffected.

Facts:

  • CCP's stated intent is to create conditions for Nullsec to be 99% self-sufficient.
  • Invention requires a racial data interface and typically two types of datacores to complete.
  • Datacores are primarily provided by R&D Agents and the Faction Warfare LP store.
  • Datacores can be obtained through hacking randomly.

Assumptions:

  • CCP wants to find ways to remove "passive" income from datacore "farming".
  • Null security space will continue to have a high demand for T2 items.
  • Inventors do not typically sell T2 BPCs for profit but will more likely use them for their own production.
  • Datacores obtained via hacking sites will not sufficiently supply T2 invention demands.
  • High-sec invention will not be adversely affected by improving other ways to invent T2 items.

Possible Courses of Action:

  1. Allow datacore free invention only in Caldari Research stations.
  2. Pros: Caldari outposts are typically the least built outposts as they offer bonuses that are largely redundant to Mobile Laboratories. This change would provide an incentive to construct this outpost. Additionally, this change would likely be easier to complete. Finally, limited access to these outposts would not adversely affect T2 invention in high-sec.
    Cons: Outposts are not built quickly and incentives may not translate into more Caldari outposts constructed. Additionally, pilots without access to these outposts would not obtain this bonus.
  3. Adjust all outposts to allow invention and allow datacore free invention in all nullsec Outposts
  4. Pros: Access to datacore free invention more easily available to most nullsec residents - implementation would be equal.
    Cons: Removes incentive to this new feature.
  5. Allow existing Mobile Laboratories
  6. Pros: All existing pilots would have access to new feature through existing POS modules - implementation would be equal. Additionally, POSs are subject to attack and destruction. Finally, outposts would be unchanged and not require new construction for feature access.
    Cons: Blanket type implementation that would apply to everyone without much of a tradeoff. High-sec and Low-sec POSs would need special coding to prohibit this feature.
  7. Add an Industry Upgrade to allow datacore free invention
  8. Pros: Industry upgrades fit into the current sov system and would require risk to ship upgrades to the system. Additionally, it would add more variety to the sovereignty upgrade system.
    Cons: Would limit access to feature by only those who have sovereignty. This may be also difficult to implement.
  9. Add a new POS Mobile Laboratory such as "Efficient Mobile Invention Laboratory"
  10. This new module would have no more than 5 production lines for invention only, require only a data interface and blueprint copies to complete invention jobs. The power grid and CPU requirements would be on par with current laboratories. This module could only be anchored in null security space.
    Pros: The additional module would require trade-offs in module placement in the POS due to CPU and power grid requirements. Additionally, the new module is in-line with existing modules and coding structures that restrict anchoring by security status.
    Cons: Wormholes would have this feature as well and may negatively impact high-sec invention due to their access to empire systems.

Recommended Course of Action: Recommend adding a new mobile laboratory as it fits within the existing anchoring limited POS modules and supports the most access to this option within current risk mechanics. However, possibly combing the lab with a sovereignty upgrade to anchor the new laboratory would be required to limit the effect of WH space datacore free invention.

The overall end-state would further remove the influence of datacore income (stated CCP goal) and improve the ability for null security industry to become more self-sufficient (stated CCP goal).


No, for all the reasons given previously.
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#10 - 2013-06-04 14:47:22 UTC
yodayblack wrote:
Dear god this has to be a troll.

No you can no have more things given to you. Deal with it. Buy your datacores like everyone else. Null sec has way to many free things you dont need free datacores as well.

Well said

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude