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DUST TARGETING POCOS
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Captain Africa
GRIM MARCH
#21 - 2013-06-04 10:37:35 UTC
Thugnificent Gangstalicio wrote:
The planet shield emitter should only harden the poco shields, not make it indestructible.

Also, if you want to bash the poco, and you hire dusties. Who's supposed to defend it, and how long do you have to respond with your own dust defense team?



works exactly with current reinforcement system .....like i said if it was brought into reinforcement by a dust corp only a dust corp can defend it or when it was a air attack only a Eve corp can defend it....
Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
#22 - 2013-06-04 10:38:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Burl en Daire
Anything that connects the games together more would be great. Pilots need to feel more involved with infantry and almost dependent on ground forces or there will forever be a gap between the two games. I would like to see pilots put up ISK on contracts that mercs can complete on the ground and merc contracts to pilots for support from space.

Pilots could add ISK to a pool that the DUST mercs would win if they complete the task and mercs could put up a pool of ISK for pilots to win. We desperately need something to make DUST bunnies feel useful.

I am The Robot Devil.

Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. Hunter S. Thompson
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2013-06-04 10:45:16 UTC
Just a quick idea that came to mind.... Since there are ice planets, tying the ice required for fuel blocks into those planets wouldn't neccessarily be a bad thing either. Perhaps a percentage of the ice that's available in all areas of space, would be through these. Similarily other planet types could have something unique in them, with the catch that you need control of the said planet through Dust and that normal PI alone wouldn't cut it.
Sichil Amalomyn
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2013-06-04 11:03:09 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Captain Africa wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
I think it's a good idea, as long as I am allowed to park at the district satellite and indiscriminately fire upon DUST bunnies.



The idea is that you as a player would be able to hire a Dust corp to defend your POCO or to take over POCO's and enforce a new tax rate , without starving your renters.

The other side of the coin is at the same token Eve players can take over a POCO held by a Dust Corp and there is nothing much they can do except to hire some Eve pilots do defend their structure. I think this would really mix up interaction between Dust and Eve on a ground level ...space level what ever level.


That's cool and all, but I still want to be able to link up with the satellite and rain indiscriminate death down on the immortal ants that play on the ground. Perhaps it will dissuade them from trying to bite the hands that feed them.


There are no ISK transfers yet between Dust and Eve, so this is false.
Captain Africa
GRIM MARCH
#25 - 2013-06-04 11:05:43 UTC
Sichil Amalomyn wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
Captain Africa wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
I think it's a good idea, as long as I am allowed to park at the district satellite and indiscriminately fire upon DUST bunnies.



The idea is that you as a player would be able to hire a Dust corp to defend your POCO or to take over POCO's and enforce a new tax rate , without starving your renters.

The other side of the coin is at the same token Eve players can take over a POCO held by a Dust Corp and there is nothing much they can do except to hire some Eve pilots do defend their structure. I think this would really mix up interaction between Dust and Eve on a ground level ...space level what ever level.


That's cool and all, but I still want to be able to link up with the satellite and rain indiscriminate death down on the immortal ants that play on the ground. Perhaps it will dissuade them from trying to bite the hands that feed them.


There are no ISK transfers yet between Dust and Eve, so this is false.


HUH ? Yea I know ...
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-06-04 11:27:44 UTC
Captain Africa wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
I think it's a good idea, as long as I am allowed to park at the district satellite and indiscriminately fire upon DUST bunnies.



The idea is that you as a player would be able to hire a Dust corp to defend your POCO or to take over POCO's and enforce a new tax rate , without starving your renters.

The other side of the coin is at the same token Eve players can take over a POCO held by a Dust Corp and there is nothing much they can do except to hire some Eve pilots do defend their structure. I think this would really mix up interaction between Dust and Eve on a ground level ...space level what ever level.


How does a dust corporation get a POCO setup under their banner?

How would a dust corporation take a POCO? Destroy it or capture it?

If capture, is anything implemented to allow a ground type assault on a space station like that?

If they do have the ability to fire on space targets, can they hit moons and such? (i.e. put POS's at risk too)

It seems a tad one sided if they can pot-shot POCO's but can't be stopped nor risk anything on their end (owning a POCO).

This sounds more like a lulz excuse to allow ground pounders to blow up POCO's at will and not like any type of interaction gig. I don't know... I don't understand enough about how they work together to make a clean decision on such a topic so please do explain a bit more.
Adunh Slavy
#27 - 2013-06-04 11:37:14 UTC

Not sure how it should be implemented but yeah, Dust/Eve poco link, why not. Game wide too, not just low and null.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Captain Africa
GRIM MARCH
#28 - 2013-06-04 12:04:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Africa
Mocam wrote:
Captain Africa wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
I think it's a good idea, as long as I am allowed to park at the district satellite and indiscriminately fire upon DUST bunnies.



The idea is that you as a player would be able to hire a Dust corp to defend your POCO or to take over POCO's and enforce a new tax rate , without starving your renters.

The other side of the coin is at the same token Eve players can take over a POCO held by a Dust Corp and there is nothing much they can do except to hire some Eve pilots do defend their structure. I think this would really mix up interaction between Dust and Eve on a ground level ...space level what ever level.


How does a dust corporation get a POCO setup under their banner?

How would a dust corporation take a POCO? Destroy it or capture it?

If capture, is anything implemented to allow a ground type assault on a space station like that?

If they do have the ability to fire on space targets, can they hit moons and such? (i.e. put POS's at risk too)

It seems a tad one sided if they can pot-shot POCO's but can't be stopped nor risk anything on their end (owning a POCO).

This sounds more like a lulz excuse to allow ground pounders to blow up POCO's at will and not like any type of interaction gig. I don't know... I don't understand enough about how they work together to make a clean decision on such a topic so please do explain a bit more.



Just posted a whole damn sop ....and didnt copy it . Il try again ....
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2013-06-04 12:22:37 UTC
Captain Africa wrote:
[quote=Mocam][quote=Captain Africa] ...


Just posted a whole damn sop ....and didnt copy it . Il try again ....


Thanks. I am interested in it - a link works if you have one. Big smile
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#30 - 2013-06-04 12:27:06 UTC
No...but I wouldn't mind paying some guys to wipe out other people's PI factories on the planet. Maybe even let them steal the goods?
Captain Africa
GRIM MARCH
#31 - 2013-06-04 12:56:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Africa
Mocam wrote:
Captain Africa wrote:
[quote=Mocam][quote=Captain Africa] ...


Just posted a whole damn sop ....and didnt copy it . Il try again ....


Thanks. I am interested in it - a link works if you have one. Big smile


Poco Mechanics

X Dust Corporations decides to get into POCO ownership as a business. So their leadership views their star map and identify potential POCOS to take over.

They identify your POCO and as a squad spawn to the MMC covering the planet where your POCO is anchored.
They then wait for the timer in the MMC and spawn into your POCO station. They hack a few mechanics and interact with the POCO that brings the POCO into reinforcement mode. The owner (You ) gets notified via mail that your POKO has been put into reinforcement mode. The POCO belongs to no one now. X Dust Corp goes back to MMC and wait for timer to run out. The timer can be anything from a few hours to less than two days. You as the owner sets the timer before the time.

Because it was hacked from the inside you as the owner can only defend it from the inside , that means you have to hire another Dust corp via contract. So you initiate a contract to defend your POCO for a fee.

Some Y Dust Corp accepts your contract , Both Corps spawn to the MMC when the timer runs out and from the MMC to the station where they would initiate the match.
During the match no Eve OBM is possible cause its a station not a planet and Eve pilots also cant shoot the station /POCO into structure ( Cause its a DustGrab)..
a. If Y Dust Corp (Defending) wins the POCO, it gets transferred back to Eve owner and the contract ISK fee gets transferred to the Dust defending corporation.
b.If X Dust Corp wins they receive ownership of the POCO and now can set the new tax rate.
c.They can also **** off the farmers and raid the minerals inside the POCO. However that might make the farmers leave so there will be no long term benefit.
d.Obviously who ever farms on the planet can still farm there , they will have to adjust to the new tax rate. The owner of the POCO obviously does not want to alienate his renters so he keeps the tax rate at an acceptable leve and have a long term passive income.

Ok so lets say you as an Eve player lost your POCO and your really peed off now. So you rally your Corpies a few days later and attack the POCO now owned by X Dust Corp. You shoot it into structure and wait for the timer to run out as per current game mechanics. Now X Dust Corp scrambles around to find Eve pilots to defend their POCO against you , why ? Because they cant do **** against an air attack.

See the interaction......?

Few side notes
-Only POCOS can be attacked not POSSES
-Would be cool in future to have Eve pilots transport Mercs from MMC to POCO ( So there is a chance that your ship with mercs can be blown up.
-The same way PI is a nice passive income for Eve Pilots it now can be a nice passive income for Dust corps or they can just raid them.

Reg
Cap
W0wbagger
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#32 - 2013-06-04 17:46:12 UTC  |  Edited by: W0wbagger
As someone who has spent billions of isk as well as a lot of time and effort taking pocos - I have no interest in them being taken away from me through a method with which I have no desire to interact.

Yes I can "hire dust mercs" or take back the poco with an "air" attack with your post but instigating a mechanic where I can lose assets without any direct means of defense is ill advised. I don't care if this happens with PI outposts, or space elevators but pocos are in the eve domain and should remain there - they are only used in eve.

Perhaps down the line when eve and dust are properly integrated this may be more viable - if the troop transports are visible in space etc but this is a long way off.

Also lol at them being able to raid minerals inside the pocos
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2013-06-04 18:02:41 UTC
It's an interesting idea and I can see the potential but I think it needs a bit of work. My opinion on this of course.

There is no defense by the assaulted party against their fixed asset - until after they have lost control of it. This needs addressing.

I frowned at the idea of planetary bombardment without dusties having the ability to defend themselves against it. I also frown at the idea of a reversal of this situation which seems to be what is proposed here. You gain no notification nor ability to defend your property until after you have lost control of it...

Someone who is attacked (their property at least) should gain notification and/or the ability to defend against such an attack as soon as possible and they should have the ability to defend themselves - hiring as an option works but not as the only means to hold onto your property. Having to hire after a loss to recover assets works. Hiring as the only option to regain a valuable asset is not so good.

That said the idea of this "intermediary" (between space and the planet) asset potentially being threatened from either/both sides does have potential. It just needs some way for both sides to be able to defend the property and not turn an EVE construct and asset into a Dust play-thing -- nor vice verse with dust based assets by EVE players.

See if a balance point can be reached - it's a good spot to pick for a "closer to EVE" side of interaction but, again, both sides should be more balanced on their ability to defend their property so if they did manage to take it, blowing it up would need a type of defense.

Yes I can see them hiring EVE players to handle that side if they don't have the ability to build it on their own (they stole it but can't defend it... that can work) but it would be best if they could defend it from EVE players if they managed to take it.

Again, just my thoughts on the topic.
Xonus Calimar
CaeIum Incognitum
#34 - 2013-06-04 18:17:12 UTC
I'd rather they just introduce those ground-to-orbit deathbeams they have in the trailers. Then the DUST mercs can just, y'know, shoot the POCO's like we do. No need for different mechanics.

Just take the whole orbital bombardment mechanic and turn it on its head, with an EVE player target painting the in-space target. (Using existing target painter, or maybe new module.)
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2013-06-04 18:21:37 UTC
Xonus Calimar wrote:
I'd rather they just introduce those ground-to-orbit deathbeams they have in the trailers. Then the DUST mercs can just, y'know, shoot the POCO's like we do. No need for different mechanics.

Just take the whole orbital bombardment mechanic and turn it on its head, with an EVE player target painting the in-space target. (Using existing target painter, or maybe new module.)


meh... give 'em some earnings potential as a carrot and the ability to flip-flop a POCO sounds lot more interesting than just pop a box floating in space. If it's cheaper to hire a batch of mercs if you lose a POCO this way - vs putting another up... It could prove more "interactive".

It's an interesting idea he put forward - just the defense sides seem a tad lacking.

I just wonder at the lore in Dust that says CONCORD is sacrosanct. EVE? They have "world killer" firepower to mess with space ships but Dust? ... What does stop dusties from being able to mess with CONCORD POCO's in some fashion?
Xonus Calimar
CaeIum Incognitum
#36 - 2013-06-04 18:43:30 UTC
Mocam wrote:

meh... give 'em some earnings potential as a carrot and the ability to flip-flop a POCO sounds lot more interesting than just pop a box floating in space. If it's cheaper to hire a batch of mercs if you lose a POCO this way - vs putting another up... It could prove more "interactive".


True, plus I have no idea how they would put up their own POCO after blowing one up. I guess it would come down to how cheap hiring mercs would actually be vs. replacing the POCO.

Mocam wrote:

It's an interesting idea he put forward - just the defense sides seem a tad lacking.


It is interesting, this and the ship boarding ideas show that there are many interesting ways that DUST could interact with EVE.

Mocam wrote:

I just wonder at the lore in Dust that says CONCORD is sacrosanct. EVE? They have "world killer" firepower to mess with space ships but Dust? ... What does stop dusties from being able to mess with CONCORD POCO's in some fashion?


I'm sure CCP will come up with some lore reason once DUSTies can actually do things that might upset CONCORD. It will definitely take some thought.
Captain Africa
GRIM MARCH
#37 - 2013-06-05 06:07:16 UTC
Mocam wrote:
It's an interesting idea and I can see the potential but I think it needs a bit of work. My opinion on this of course.

There is no defense by the assaulted party against their fixed asset - until after they have lost control of it. This needs addressing.

I frowned at the idea of planetary bombardment without dusties having the ability to defend themselves against it. I also frown at the idea of a reversal of this situation which seems to be what is proposed here. You gain no notification nor ability to defend your property until after you have lost control of it...

Someone who is attacked (their property at least) should gain notification and/or the ability to defend against such an attack as soon as possible and they should have the ability to defend themselves - hiring as an option works but not as the only means to hold onto your property. Having to hire after a loss to recover assets works. Hiring as the only option to regain a valuable asset is not so good.

That said the idea of this "intermediary" (between space and the planet) asset potentially being threatened from either/both sides does have potential. It just needs some way for both sides to be able to defend the property and not turn an EVE construct and asset into a Dust play-thing -- nor vice verse with dust based assets by EVE players.

See if a balance point can be reached - it's a good spot to pick for a "closer to EVE" side of interaction but, again, both sides should be more balanced on their ability to defend their property so if they did manage to take it, blowing it up would need a type of defense.

Yes I can see them hiring EVE players to handle that side if they don't have the ability to build it on their own (they stole it but can't defend it... that can work) but it would be best if they could defend it from EVE players if they managed to take it.

Again, just my thoughts on the topic.



Some solid feedback there , thanks. I agree there is a whole lot that needs to be clarified however I cant think of a short term better idea to get the two interactions and bang for buck....
Thugnificent Gangstalicio
Doomheim
#38 - 2013-06-05 10:10:34 UTC
And when the Dust corporation takes over our poco, we shoot it with dreads and online a new one. I seriously doubt Dusties would be able to obtain a proper POCO business.
It'll be somewhat hard for dust players to hire EVE players. The isk-difference is way too high.
Captain Africa
GRIM MARCH
#39 - 2013-06-05 10:12:00 UTC
POCO Mechanics Ver 2

X Dust Corporation decides to get into POCO ownership as a business venture. So their leadership views their star map and identify potential POCOS to take over.
They identify your POCO and as a squad spawn to the MMC covering the planet where your POCO is anchored.

Reinforcing The POCO:

The X Dust Corporation then wait for the timer in the MMC and spawn into a transport ship. The transport ship piloted by an Eve player undocs from the MMC and transports the Mercs to the POCO. A few things regarding this :

a.Since it is in a player owned POCO it will be in shoot able space. During this stage of the operation the Mercs in the transport ship are pretty vulnerable. They could have more Eve pilots protecting them against hostile enemy ships while doing the trip.
b. The Transport Ship docks onto the POCO , the Mercs hack the front gate and enter the installation.

The Mercs need to kill off the M-Tac Mecs and dismantle explosives and mines defending the installation, then hack a few mechanics which brings the POCO into reinforcement mode. The elimination of these Mecs and booby traps should be a challenge in itself.
The Mercs also deploys a specialized drop up link in order to spawn to the POCO when the reinforcement timer runs out before the match begins. Obviously this would be a specialized drop up link tool .

X Dust Corp goes back to MMC and wait for timer to run out. The timer can be anything from a few hours to less than two days. You as the owner sets the timer before the time.

Initially Defending The POCO From Reinforcement:

The owner of the POCO has a limited amount of specialized M- TAC Mecs with Drone AI available to guard your installation:
They come in three sizes divided in 4 races

Example: Minmatar M-Tac Mecs
Small – Scouts = Light Auto cannon , Sniper Gun
Medium – Attack = Medium Auto Cannon with Mass Driver
Heavy – Guard = Heavy Auto Cannon with Blaster

The owner may also make use of explosive booby traps and mines placing them at strategic points within the POCO station.
These M-Tac Mecs and booby traps are available on the Eve market and get deployed by the owner by means of a map ingame mechanic where he can deploy them in strategic areas. Remember were talking one map here so Devs relax.

POCO Now In Reinforcement Mode:

The owner (You ) gets notified via mail that your POKO has been put into reinforcement mode.
The POCO still belongs to the owner but now accessible to the attacking Mercs . Because it was hacked from the inside you as the owner can only defend it from the inside, that means you have to hire another Dust corp via contract. So you initiate a contract to defend your POCO for a fee.

The Final Battle For Ownership and Results

Some Y Dust Corp accepts your contract , Both Corps spawn to the MMC when the timer runs out and then from the MMC to the POCO station where they would initiate the match. At this stage there are no more AI Defences left and none can be deployed by the owner of the POCO.
During the match no Eve OBM is possible cause its a station not a planet and Eve pilots also cant shoot the station /POCO into structure ( Cause its a DustGrab)..
- If Y Dust Corp (Defending) wins the POCO, full ownership gets transferred back to Eve owner and the contract ISK fee gets transferred to the Dust defending corporation.
- If X Dust Corp wins they receive ownership of the POCO and now can set the new tax rate.
- They can also **** off the farmers and raid the minerals inside the POCO. However that might make the farmers leave so there will be no long term benefit in doing that.
- Obviously who ever farms on the planet can still farm there, however they will have to adjust to the new tax rate. The owner of the POCO obviously does not want to alienate his renters so he keeps the tax rate at an acceptable level in order to have a long term passive income.

Taking Your POCO Back

Ok so lets say you as an Eve player lost your POCO and your really peed off now. So you rally your Corpies a few days later and attack the POCO now owned by X Dust Corp.

A. You shoot it into structure and wait for the timer to run out as per current game mechanics. Now X Dust Corp scrambles around to find Eve pilots to defend their POCO against you , why ? Because they cant do **** against an air attack.
Or
B. X Dust Corp deployed station turrets and shoots back at You . To simplify things each turret will be a mini game shooting at Eve ships around the POCO station.
Or X Dust Corp releases drones that attacks the Eve pilots from the station (These would be specialized Dust drones made to attack ships in space).

See the interaction......?

Few Side Notes

– Only POCOS can be attacked not POSSES
- Would be cool in future to have Eve pilots transport Mercs from MMC to POCO ( So there is a chance that your ship with mercs can be blown up.
- The same way PI is a nice passive income for Eve Pilots it now can be a nice passive income for Dust corps or they can just raid them.
Kinis Deren
Mosquito Squadron
D0GS OF WAR
#40 - 2013-06-05 10:23:54 UTC
+1 and bump.

I believe the basic idea has a lot of merit. So long as balance issues are taken into consideration (for instance, EVE players could bombard the POCO attacking Dust players) then I think it would create additional conflict drivers, as well further intergrating both games.