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Is this an exploit: 'Magic' bubbles?
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Gizznitt Malikite

Agony Unleashed

Agony Empire

Likes received: 4,267

#41 - 2013-05-31 21:29:51 UTC

Substantia Nigra wrote:

responses to my post

What a pleasant response.... Perhaps you could elaborate:

Gizznitt wrote:

1.) No grid fu expands a grid to 1 au...

I was pointing out you cannot flying a ship that length, so please let us know how such a grid may happen! Or give testament of such an enormous grid!

Gizznitt wrote:

2.) I was under the impression you had to be "on grid" with a bubble in order to be effected by it, but this is untested on my part. For example, if I have a bubble on the edge of a grid, so it's warp disrupt sphere extends to the next grid, will a ship on the next-door grid be influenced by that bubble (like pulled out of warp, or can't warp until it leaves the edge of the bubble?)

My impression is wrong because an offgrid bubble can pull you out of warp? or prevent you from warping? or ... Please elaborate and inform us!

Substantia Nigra wrote:

Gizznitt wrote:

3.) My gut feeling, if the 1 au bubble is actually true: When warping, your ship bounces from grid to grid to grid each tick.

You do not usually pass through consecutive grids during warp. You may, if a grid has already been 'spawned' at a location on your warp path, but generally the warp itself does not generate a series of consecutive grids. Read my wiki on that subject ... ofc you may have to join an unwholesome and evil coalition to do that :-)

There are some special circumstances where that 'usually' is not the case.

I'll review your wiki on the subject, assuming I can access it. I don't know the exact details on when a grid is spawned, but we're talking about a bubble anchored at an already spawned grid. Anyone warping along a vector passing through that grid will occasionally load that grid while "in warp", which is ultimately the premise I was requiring for my complete speculation on how a bubble might catch someone mid-warp.

Since you are named as a perpetrator, you could shed light on this for us....
I would be thankful, and fully plan to test out some of the possibilities.

ShortTime ForumAlt

Doomheim

Likes received: 0

#42 - 2013-06-01 09:59:27 UTC | Edited by: ShortTime ForumAlt

I'm sorry it has taken me so long, but I have finally built a video clip and uploaded it to youtube.

I don't know yet why it's such a huge file and yet the images are such poor quality. The raw files were huge and their image quality was great. Hopefully this is good enough quality to see what I am describing.

p.s. No, it's awful. I am going to have to try that again and somehow make it come out better quality pictures.

Othran

Route One

Likes received: 787

#43 - 2013-06-01 15:39:07 UTC

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

2.) I was under the impression you had to be "on grid" with a bubble in order to be effected by it, but this is untested on my part. For example, if I have a bubble on the edge of a grid, so it's warp disrupt sphere extends to the next grid, will a ship on the next-door grid be influenced by that bubble (like pulled out of warp, or can't warp until it leaves the edge of the bubble?)

I have (on sisi some months ago) pulled people out of warp off-grid by placing a bubble within 1km of the grid boundary. Of course as soon as they land they are on-grid but until that point the bubble is not on-grid.

eg : POS->off-grid bubble->station becomes POS->on-grid bubble->station as soon as someone warps from station to POS.

You can do it with drag bubbles as well :

off-grid bubble->POS->off-grid bubble-> station will become :

on-grid bubble->POS->on-grid bubble->station as soon as someone warps from station to POS. That means you can grab the first lot in a stop bubble while the next lot land in the drag bubble.

Its something you have to spend some time setting up, is very likely to go pear-shaped if there's a cloaky around and for all I know it doesn't work now, but it did when you lads had RZR/FA in GW bridging onto classes, whenever that was (Feb?).

Interesting thread anyway :)


Othran Route One Likes received: 787	#44 - 2013-06-01 16:11:02 UTC Cameron Freerunner wrote: I think the specific issue that was labeled an exploit was using grid fu to squash the grid on a POS That was one, a somewhat related one was manipulating the grid when titans had AoE DDDs rather than targeted DDDs. I only say "somewhat related" as I only ever saw it being done in conjunction with sov POS bashing.

Othran

Route One

Likes received: 787

#45 - 2013-06-01 16:15:47 UTC

ShortTime ForumAlt wrote:

p.s. No, it's awful. I am going to have to try that again and somehow make it come out better quality pictures.

Yes I'm sorry but it is awful :) You can't see anything on overview/dscan/local.

What's with the long text intro? You know people can pause the video if they can't read quick enough mmm? No need for 2 minutes (or whatever, was well over 1 minute) of text.......

ShortTime ForumAlt

Doomheim

Likes received: 0

#46 - 2013-06-01 18:13:15 UTC | Edited by: ShortTime ForumAlt

Othran wrote:

Yes I'm sorry but it is awful :) You can't see anything on overview/dscan/local.
What's with the long text intro? You know people can pause the video if they can't read quick enough mmm? No need for 2 minutes (or whatever, was well over 1 minute) of text.......

Better version posted now. Still disappointing after the video quality of the original captures.
I have not done a video thing before so, never thought about viewers being able to pause, and no idea of the right settings to make the output best quality, and it takes fekking ages to do anything with those huge files.
Will change that stuff in next version.


ShortTime ForumAlt Doomheim Likes received: 0	#47 - 2013-06-03 18:42:24 UTC I have finally made a decent quality video and uploaded. Thanks to DDOS enforced downtime. http://youtu.be/TfAMw0dmsAA

Substantia Nigra

Polaris Rising

Goonswarm Federation

Likes received: 1,523

#48 - 2013-06-04 04:04:58 UTC

Dracvlad wrote:

That is easy to say as you are not allowed to post replies to petitions on the forums, but of course you know that!

Yeah, but I'm just saying that's how it is.

I've done a lot of work with grid and have petitioned many of the resultant constructs to confirm that they are not exploits. As a result I am satisfied that (most of) my methods are the entirely legitimate use of normal, if poorly understood, game dynamics.

Gridfu is such an everyday phenomenon it'd simply be unimplementable to try ban it. Even the business of compressing grid around aPOS occurs naturally if you use nearby offgrid bookmarks to obtain safe warp lines into the POS ... as I do, because I surround my POSes with bubbles to irritate unwary scouts.

Whether you do it deliberately or not it is easy enough to compress a grid, in a particular direction, so that the wall is around 120km from the object (e.g. POS tower) you're working with. It is not possible to compress it thus in every direction though.

gridfu is legit, we all hafta live with it.

... and I'd better go have a look at that video.

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.

Garresh

Mackies Raiders

Wild Geese.

Likes received: 346

#49 - 2013-06-04 06:11:28 UTC | Edited by: Garresh

Lol I like Nigras reply. "It was posted on my wiki, but you have to join corp to see it"

...when gsf only recruits from their forums and scams anyone else who applies.

Not exactly helping your case.

Anyways, that vid is interesting. I dont care what the CCP definition is, that's clearly an exploit. The question is if its a *legal* exploit, which I believe it is. Honestly, my only thoughts on this are why, if this was posted to their internal wiki, was this never used in warfare? This has only been used in backwood systems for camping. Either there are some very real limitations(likely), or nigras claim of transparency with CCP and disclosure to the greater gsf and gents is false(also likely). Either way this is clearly a whole nother can of worms, and that vid needs a CCP reply.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank

Substantia Nigra

Polaris Rising

Goonswarm Federation

Likes received: 1,523

#50 - 2013-06-04 08:00:01 UTC | Edited by: Substantia Nigra

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

What a pleasant response ....

Perhaps you could elaborate:

Gizznitt wrote:

1.) No grid fu expands a grid to 1 au ...

I was pointing out you cannot flying a ship that length, so please let us know how such a grid may happen! Or give testament of such an enormous grid!

Ya, the cheap shots are not necessary or helpful. Gizz, please accept my humble apologies for being a sarcastic tard. I will always be a tard, but do not need to be snarky and sarcastic as well.

The standard two-ship method allows you to operate out to a distance of around 1/4 - 1/2 AU, but doing so can be a real pain. Not only does it take literally all-day but at those distances, and at distances much less than that, the 'geometry' and associated alignment issues can get pretty strange.

To operate at grid distances greater than that you would need to adopt different methods.

Gizznitt wrote:

My impression is wrong because an offgrid bubble can pull you out of warp? or prevent you from warping? or ... Please elaborate and inform us!

I think other posters in this thread have described some variants on that theme. Altho some of those descriptions are incorrect, their general idea is sound.

Gizznitt wrote:

I don't know the exact details on when a grid is spawned, but we're talking about a bubble anchored at an already spawned grid. Anyone warping along a vector passing through that grid will occasionally load that grid while "in warp", which is ultimately the premise I was requiring for my complete speculation on how a bubble might catch someone mid-warp.

Yes, I agree, when you warp through another grid you sometimes 'load' that grid and 'see' its contents. This is an element of some DS methods for finding enemy ships (etc) at safespots. I also agree that this does not seem to happen every time you warp through a remote grid ... perhaps the same geometry issues I mention above.

I'm afraid a bubble does not 'catch' a passerby midwarp simply by the passerby loading the grid that the bubble is anchored on. It'd be great if it was that simple.

To be caught by a bubble, during warp, there are a number of rules that need to be complied with. I'll described an experimental setup below that will let you further explore one of the many ingame dynamics that relate to grid and bubbles ... some of which are not as you might have expected.

Gizznitt wrote:

Since you are named as a perpetrator, you could shed light on this for us....
I would be thankful, and fully plan to test out some of the possibilities.

LOL, since when was an accused 'perp' obliged to shed light? I think the merican legal system has a specific provision to cover this ... ?fifth amendment?

Yes, do get out there and do some research. I've been working with the vagaries of eve's grid for much of the last year now (OP's reference to a Tribute kill sounds like some of our early work using standard GARPA-esque methods) and there are many wonders, joys, and frustrations out there in those grids. Don't do this, though, if you are not naturally disposed to seeing something thru ... it can be very tedious and time consuming work.

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.

Substantia Nigra

Polaris Rising

Goonswarm Federation

Likes received: 1,523

#51 - 2013-06-04 08:09:17 UTC | Edited by: Substantia Nigra

For Gizz's experimental laboratory.

See diagram below.

Build and pin a gridwall
50km from the wall launch (but don't anchor yet) a mobile warp disruptor (+ in the diagram)
Bookmark that mobile warp disruptor
Burn away from the disruptor thru the gridwall towards a celestial, in the direction of A, B, & C
B is a location offgrid to the disruptor, inline with your chosen celestial (or another location you've prepared), and at a warpable distance from the disruptor. Bookmark this location.
Warp to the disruptor at 100km (Select its bookmark, right click, select "Warp to location" and then select "Within 100km" from the next drop-down menu). Bookmark the spot you land at - A in the diagram.
Go to the disruptor, anchor it, and wait for the bubble to come up.
Warp to B. Now for two slightly different test scenarios.

Warp from B to the bookmark you've made for location A, note where you land, and warp back to B.
Warp from B to the disruptor bookmark 'at 100km' (Select its bookmark, right click, select "Warp to location" and then select "Within 100km" from the next drop-down menu), note where you land.

Do the same from C, near the celestial you chose to align to initially. It is on a third grid tile, note what happens.

Diagram

............................. | ........................................................ | ..............
............................. | ........................................................ | ..............
............ C ............ | ............B ........................ A ............. | .......... +
............................. | ........................................................ | ..............
............................. | ........................................................ | ..............

| = gridwalls
+ = mobile warp disruptor, 50km from nearest gridwall
A = 100km from mobile warp disruptor and approximately 50km from nearest gridwall
B = a location ongrid with A, inline with A and +, but at a warpable distance from A and +
C = a location remote from, offgrid to, and inline with A and B and +.
_______________

In these two tests you warped to exactly the same location, A +/- 2.5km, and yet you ended up in very different places ... and thus you have explored one basic aspect of the normal ingame dynamics of the interactions between bubbles and grid. You may have have observed that what most people 'know' about bubbles is sortof right, but is often just a small subset of the actual dynamics in play ... the subset that applies to the parts of eve in which they eke out their existence. There are many more 'normal' ingame dynamics relating to grid and to bubbles, that most people do not appreciate ... feel free to go forth and explore and experiment.
It's just a very small start but, hopefully, this one may give you some clues as to where to direct your research.

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.

Dracvlad

Taishi Combine

Astral Alliance

Likes received: 3,498

#52 - 2013-06-04 13:14:15 UTC

Substantia Nigra ,

Thanks for that reply and your details, looks like I will eat my words then about it being an exploit, well looks like I will be playing with grids then...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp


Othran Route One Likes received: 787	#53 - 2013-06-04 18:29:32 UTC \| Edited by: Othran Substantia Nigra wrote: Build and pin a gridwall Ahhh thank you for that - I had it inadvertantly pinned by alts on sisi - one at each end of grid aligned to station. Now the penny drops so thanks for that, I shall go have a play again. Much appreciated


Garresh Mackies Raiders Wild Geese. Likes received: 346	#54 - 2013-06-05 01:29:23 UTC Hang on. I'm posting this from a phone and haven't tested it yet, but you're saying that bubbles aren't just a warp blocker, but actually distort the shape of a grid as well? More so and different than other objects? This Space Intentionally Left Blank

University of Caille Gallente Federation 80
LordShazbot University of Caille Gallente Federation Likes received: 80	#55 - 2013-06-06 00:54:02 UTC I say he is innocent of the charges. Case dismissed.