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Dreadnoughts
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Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#1 - 2011-09-07 19:37:32 UTC
At long last I've finally trained up my Nag. It's my first time flying caps so I hopped on to SISSI to test it. My general impression is that it does mediocre damage to subcaps when not in siege mode and none at all when IN siege mode. I like the way it tears through carriers in siege. Cool

My question is: what is up with the five minute siege mode? I get that let's the dread get a 625% boost to damage while not allowing it to apply it to subcaps. But being frozen in place in the era of the 3 million EHP death ray is in itself a death sentence. We're talking about ships that can be tackled with a Slasher with a scrambler. The dreads also take forever to align. Why not have a timer that consumes stront at an even pace that you can turn off at will? Would that break anything?
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#2 - 2011-09-07 21:20:47 UTC
It's to make sieging a tactical decision that forces you to follow thru with a fight

The Drake is a Lie
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#3 - 2011-09-08 01:34:52 UTC
That would be a good explanation if Titan's didn't get the same bonuses of a sieged dread without any of the penalties. Noone commits dreads to a fight period. And things have been messed up - in usual CCP fashion - for a year +. Good times.
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2011-09-08 02:21:27 UTC
Xercodo is right. Unfortunately or not, Caps have been pretty carefully thought out, there is... or was a purpose behind everything. Will be jumping into my first dread tonight, another Nag :)

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bartos100
Living Ghost
#5 - 2011-09-08 08:03:08 UTC
a siegemod also gives a massive bonus to local tank that will help against sub caps and normal caps
but if you get against a supper cap you are as good as dead if you are solo

and as far as i know the siege cycle on TQ is 10 min not 5

altho CCP might be testing with a 5 min cycle that dread pilots have been akin for for a long time
Sphit Ker
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2011-09-08 08:16:15 UTC
From the outside looking in, I say get rid of the siege cycle completely but leave a transition time to deal with.

It knows what you think.
Furb Killer
#7 - 2011-09-08 08:48:34 UTC
Siege cycle is fine, it makes deploying dreads a serious decission, and more importantly it keeps caps vs subcaps balanced: without siege timer they would simply drop out of siege and be repped immediatly by carriers, now subcaps can kill dreads supported by carriers.

The whole issue that they get instakilled by a 3M damage death ray is not an issue with dreads, but an issue with a 3M damage death ray.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#8 - 2011-09-08 08:54:43 UTC
Furb Killer wrote:
The whole issue that they get instakilled by a 3M damage death ray is not an issue with dreads, but an issue with a 3M damage death ray.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Starlight Twilight
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2011-09-08 09:58:52 UTC
the problem with sieged dreads is they become prey to anything with neuts, neuts WILL turn off reps and hardeners and if they are amarr or galente, turn off weapons as well
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#10 - 2011-09-08 11:27:32 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
At long last I've finally trained up my Nag. It's my first time flying caps so I hopped on to SISSI to test it. My general impression is that it does mediocre damage to subcaps when not in siege mode and none at all when IN siege mode. I like the way it tears through carriers in siege. Cool

My question is: what is up with the five minute siege mode? I get that let's the dread get a 625% boost to damage while not allowing it to apply it to subcaps. But being frozen in place in the era of the 3 million EHP death ray is in itself a death sentence. We're talking about ships that can be tackled with a Slasher with a scrambler. The dreads also take forever to align. Why not have a timer that consumes stront at an even pace that you can turn off at will? Would that break anything?



Honestly I wish CCP could find some fair and reasonable way to take supercaps out of the game complete. That's not going to happen in the foreseeable future, however, and you'll just have to live with the fact that a dread vs a titan is going to result in a dead dread every time. That said, if supercaps could be confined to a role in which they serve more as corporate and alliance utility ships (think mobile mini-stations) and less as combat superpowers, I think that would go a long way towards helping things.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Aiwha
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#11 - 2011-09-08 17:37:58 UTC
Furb Killer wrote:


The whole issue that they get instakilled by a 3M damage death ray is not an issue with dreads, but an issue with a 3M damage death ray.



DD is fine, supercarrier **** is not.

Sanity is fun leaving the body.
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#12 - 2011-09-08 18:18:28 UTC
bartos100 wrote:

but if you get against a supper cap you are as good as dead if you are solo



I like my Supper Cap.

Also, standing your ground in a scrubcap vs a supercap when being solo kind of defeats the purpose of the supercap being super... 
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#13 - 2011-09-08 19:31:01 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
At long last I've finally trained up my Nag. It's my first time flying caps so I hopped on to SISSI to test it. My general impression is that it does mediocre damage to subcaps when not in siege mode and none at all when IN siege mode. I like the way it tears through carriers in siege. Cool

My question is: what is up with the five minute siege mode? I get that let's the dread get a 625% boost to damage while not allowing it to apply it to subcaps. But being frozen in place in the era of the 3 million EHP death ray is in itself a death sentence. We're talking about ships that can be tackled with a Slasher with a scrambler. The dreads also take forever to align. Why not have a timer that consumes stront at an even pace that you can turn off at will? Would that break anything?



WAIT WHAT 5 MIN TIMMER? ITS 10 MIN!

IF TRUE DREADS JUST GOT A BOOST!


IF NOT 8/10 FOR GETTING ME TO WRITE IN CAPS LOCKOops

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#14 - 2011-09-09 02:22:10 UTC
Large Collidable Object wrote:
bartos100 wrote:

but if you get against a supper cap you are as good as dead if you are solo



I like my Supper Cap.

Also, standing your ground in a scrubcap vs a supercap when being solo kind of defeats the purpose of the supercap being super...



The problem being is that they were designed around the concept of "wouldn't it be cool if...." and the belief that at most 2 or 3 would be in a battle. When fleets of supercapitals start to be the norm it breaks absolutely everything.

Let me approach it from a different angle. Dreads and carriers are 3km roundabouts. SC and Titans - 12km and 16km respectively. You can introduce something between those sizes. You can introduce some defense against doomsdays. You can tie doomsday damage to the size of the target. You can introduce capital shields or armor plates. You can make Dreads incredibly cheap in terms of hull price. They do NOT have the utility of Battleships. They have a very niche role. How about a base price of 300-500 million for the hulls? You'd see them get used!

P.S. Siege cycle is 10 minutes. Oops.
LIL TANYA Adoulin
Doomheim
#15 - 2011-09-09 02:35:46 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Large Collidable Object wrote:
bartos100 wrote:

but if you get against a supper cap you are as good as dead if you are solo



I like my Supper Cap.

Also, standing your ground in a scrubcap vs a supercap when being solo kind of defeats the purpose of the supercap being super...



The problem being is that they were designed around the concept of "wouldn't it be cool if...." and the belief that at most 2 or 3 would be in a battle. When fleets of supercapitals start to be the norm it breaks absolutely everything.

Let me approach it from a different angle. Dreads and carriers are 3km roundabouts. SC and Titans - 12km and 16km respectively. You can introduce something between those sizes. You can introduce some defense against doomsdays. You can tie doomsday damage to the size of the target. You can introduce capital shields or armor plates. You can make Dreads incredibly cheap in terms of hull price. They do NOT have the utility of Battleships. They have a very niche role. How about a base price of 300-500 million for the hulls? You'd see them get used!

P.S. Siege cycle is 10 minutes. Oops.


300-500mil per hull for that performance in siege is insane. That alone will break the game but will definately increase their appearance in cap/supercap battles.
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2011-09-09 04:09:07 UTC
One thing to watch out for on Sisi is....

.... some disco phoons like to stop between you and your target and disco citadel torps

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Large Collidable Object
morons.
#17 - 2011-09-09 13:15:26 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:



The problem being is that they were designed around the concept of "wouldn't it be cool if...." and the belief that at most 2 or 3 would be in a battle. When fleets of supercapitals start to be the norm it breaks absolutely everything.



Regardless of that and a need for a SC nerf, a solo scrubcap shouldn't stand the slightest chance against a supercap for obvious reasons.

Quote:

Let me approach it from a different angle. Dreads and carriers are 3km roundabouts. SC and Titans - 12km and 16km respectively. You can introduce something between those sizes.


I don't know where you took those number from, but last time i checked, my Revelation was bigger than e.g. a Nyx or Wyvern (been three years since I last undocked it though).

Quote:

You can introduce some defense against doomsdays. You can tie doomsday damage to the size of the target. You can introduce capital shields or armor plates. You can make Dreads incredibly cheap in terms of hull price. They do NOT have the utility of Battleships. They have a very niche role. How about a base price of 300-500 million for the hulls? You'd see them get used!



I'd suggest waiting for the SC nerf. The thing taht made dreads obsolete was the SC buff, because they did everything better without committing 10 minutes without any reps. Nerfing SC's at the same time as e.g. adding capital plates/XLSEs and shortening the siege cycle may probably end up in massive buffertanks, able to soak up enormous damage and able to drop out of siege in time to receive carrier reps.
Changing too many things at once may screw things up - like when projectiles were buffed, the buff itself was alright - just changing treackingf enhancers at the same time overpowered them...
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)