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T3 rebalance: what has been proposed so far?
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Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2013-06-01 16:40:47 UTC
Trevor Voss wrote:
I see a problem with T3 ships in nullsec with larger numbers because of their incredible HP and low sig. Bomber can easily destroy battleships, but they can't kill T3's unless you have 50 well hitting bombs I guess. OP?

If an alliance can field 300 Lokis, no one can stop them. They alpha nearly everything, while they don't have to worry about bombers. OP?

They can kite very much fleet comps because of their low sig = sig/speed tanking.

Correct me if i'm wrong.


Incorrect, tried massed Loki s in A ...even dual plated and boosted you get alpha'd by enough ships.

And they are slow compared to drakes, and the range isn't great with 720mm.

I still have a pair of them, they are great in groups of 20 but **** fleet hulls for a real fleet fight.
Majindoom Shi
Nightmare Logistics
#82 - 2013-06-03 09:42:11 UTC
Some people seem to have gotten killed by some t3s. Maybe next time you won't jump in to that WH. But with the loss of sp and the price tag of a good fit T3 I think they are underpowered. Just cus you people are to scared to fly around with a big price tag that doesn't mean that a nerf is necessary. Go fly your drakes or canes and HTFU..
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#83 - 2013-06-03 10:28:51 UTC
Majindoom Shi wrote:
HTFU

I wonder if you'll still feel this way after the T3 tiericide. We can only wait and see.

Oh god.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2013-06-03 15:27:27 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Majindoom Shi wrote:
HTFU

I wonder if you'll still feel this way after the T3 tiericide. We can only wait and see.


I'm more interested to see how the HAC balancing goes first. It seems largely that HAC's have been somewhat broken since their inception. A couple of them are decent, but many didn't see all that much use even before T3's were introduced.

By the way, still waiting to see a fit that can do everything you claim back on page 4.
Ginger Barbarella
#85 - 2013-06-03 15:52:28 UTC
OP, both of those suggestions are just ludicrous. Sure, Tengu needs a nerf (unforuntately), but the other three are already pretty weak so why bother?

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2013-06-03 17:27:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
OP, both of those suggestions are just ludicrous. Sure, Tengu needs a nerf (unforuntately), but the other three are already pretty weak so why bother?


Tengu is fine, that 70 km hamgu suffers a huge loss of tank for PvP or a huge loss of tank for PvE

Even then, with the heavy missile nerf, 100mn 5 launchers arent exactly scary.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#87 - 2013-06-03 17:52:23 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
By the way, still waiting to see a fit that can do everything you claim back on page 4.

You mean you can't figure out a fit with EFT? It's not difficult.

[Tengu, New Setup 1]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

10MN Afterburner II
Pithi C-Type Small Shield Booster
Shield Boost Amplifier II
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Rocket Fuel Cache Partition I

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst

There you go, use whatever hardeners you like.

Oh god.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#88 - 2013-06-03 17:55:32 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Also, 5 sub skills to V takes 20-25 days. For example, getting logi, HAC's, and Recon to V takes bloody forever in comparison


25 days for Recon 5 - I can't point with my proteus at 109km like with my lach with boosts , jam with my tengu like with my falcon, Web with loki like I can do with huggin or neut with legion like I can do with curse

25days for Logi 5 -tell me when was the last time you saw a T3 gang with T3 logistics and please screen it, I'd like to have a nice laugh.

Both being exponentially overpowered over T3's doing or capable to do same stuff.

DPS T3's? -wtf is the issue??
HACs are total complete and utter crap except Zealot, that's not T3's fault.


Goldensaver wrote:
But by getting all subs to V (assuming they only buff the bad subs, and not nerf any) you'll get a ship that does all of that, AND BETTER for only 20-25 days


I just proved to you they don't, you're displacing the real problem, being Command ships worst than they should be and HACs total kitty shite.

You should train for all 4 of them, use them as you seem to be experienced with logis and recons then come again tell us your experience, you'd change your opinion for sure.

The only way to get your T3 really badass is with your toon fully TOP 5 skills trained, pirate implants in his head, strong combat boosters (25M+piece) and another T3 pilot with links/implants and probably named implants worth billions+faction fits.
Then add tons of pimpy faction/officer stuff on your combat T3 and yes, you get a good ship. That's exactly what you can expect for this ship after that much effort (about the cost of a super hull just for 2 skilled implants/fitted toons)

Flash news, not everyone flies those that way and the chances you ever get one or a gang of these is in low sec and calm null sec entries but you can be sure they gtfo asap as soon as they start seeing numbers climb, they only attack the week unlike some very known players.


I'd like it to be noted that since I made that post, I've really changed my opinion on these things.

Maybe a couple subs might be too strong. I haven't experimented with them all, but a couple might be a bit over the top.

A LOT of subs are downright trash, and rarely if ever get used. Those could use some fixing.

I stand by my belief that it's too easy to train into T3's. Most of the prerequisites on the Subsystem skills are skills you should have trained up anyways, and don't take too long to train up regardless. I don't think this should be done by increasing the rank of subsystem skills though, but by adding some more prerequisites. Perhaps even some subsystem specific prerequisites (ie. All warfare skills to 5 for the warfare processors, HAM skills trained up for the Legion Assault sub, etc. Skills you'll be getting anyways to use the subs, but requiring some side training to use them rather than just a couple blanket prereqs)

I think we can all agree the command subs are broken in relation to Command ships. How they choose to resolve this is up to them, be it nerfing T3's, or buffing CS's. I really don't care, and perhaps allow T3's to fit a bit of tank in a "command ship" configuration. Maybe not for now, but for when they've changed up OGB mechanics.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2013-06-03 18:15:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Derath Ellecon
Riot Girl wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
By the way, still waiting to see a fit that can do everything you claim back on page 4.

You mean you can't figure out a fit with EFT? It's not difficult.

[Tengu, New Setup 1]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

10MN Afterburner II
Pithi C-Type Small Shield Booster
Shield Boost Amplifier II
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Rocket Fuel Cache Partition I

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst

There you go, use whatever hardeners you like.


You seemed to get most of it. I hardly consider that a "battleship sized tank" (even considering its mobility)and at only 633m/s it would get caught and DIAF in any sort of PVP environment.

Maybe its an nice fit for PVE, but honestly does anyone really care about which ships are best for PVE? In PVP anything close to that fit that would be a nice Tengu killmail for someone.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2013-06-03 18:24:01 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
By the way, still waiting to see a fit that can do everything you claim back on page 4.

You mean you can't figure out a fit with EFT? It's not difficult.

[Tengu, New Setup 1]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

10MN Afterburner II
Pithi C-Type Small Shield Booster
Shield Boost Amplifier II
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Rocket Fuel Cache Partition I

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst

There you go, use whatever hardeners you like.


You seemed to get most of it. I hardly consider that a "battleship sized tank" (even considering its mobility)and at only 633m/s it would get caught and DIAF in any sort of PVP environment.

Maybe its an nice fit for PVE, but honestly does anyone really care about which ships are best for PVE? In PVP anything close to that fit that would be a nice Tengu killmail for someone.


One med neut, and that thing is done, plus the tank has to be dead space or you are running into cpu issues
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#91 - 2013-06-03 18:58:22 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
In PVP anything close to that fit that would be a nice Tengu killmail for someone.

For PvP, you'd use something more like this.

[Tengu, New Setup 1]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

10MN Afterburner II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
EM Ward Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

Tengu Defensive - Supplemental Screening
Tengu Electronics - Obfuscation Manifold
Tengu Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst


This still does 700 DPS @ 25km and has 118k EHP with a couple of mids for whatever you want.

Oh god.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2013-06-03 19:23:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Aka thunder cat......just add HAMS

With logi you normally run three active hardeners and flush with cdfes to keep your Sig down and max resists, but that is a workable build to allow for ewar
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2013-06-03 23:19:59 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
This still does 700 DPS @ 25km and has 118k EHP with a couple of mids for whatever you want.


Yet is another fail. Those are both nice fits, but they don't achieve what you had clamed

Riot Girl wrote:
Is it normal for a Cruiser to have BS tank before taking mobility into consideration, capable of close to1000 DPS and applying damage out to 70km? If it's not overpowered, then I guess this is pretty common for many cruiser class ships, right?


Now maybe there was a typo. Maybe you meant to put OR in between those. Or maybe even "pick any two". But you didn't. This is what I was getting at originally. Yes your three facts above are technically true. But you state it in a way that would mislead those unaware with T3's to infer a Tengu can:

1. Be capable of close to 1000 DPS AND
2. Apply damage out to 70km AND
3. Have BS tank before taking mobility into consideration.

All at the same time. Even with T3's you have to sacrifice something to get the other.
Pipernelli Spacemitt
Doomheim
#94 - 2013-06-03 23:37:52 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
This still does 700 DPS @ 25km and has 118k EHP with a couple of mids for whatever you want.


Yet is another fail. Those are both nice fits, but they don't achieve what you had clamed

Riot Girl wrote:
Is it normal for a Cruiser to have BS tank before taking mobility into consideration, capable of close to1000 DPS and applying damage out to 70km? If it's not overpowered, then I guess this is pretty common for many cruiser class ships, right?


Now maybe there was a typo. Maybe you meant to put OR in between those. Or maybe even "pick any two". But you didn't. This is what I was getting at originally. Yes your three facts above are technically true. But you state it in a way that would mislead those unaware with T3's to infer a Tengu can:

1. Be capable of close to 1000 DPS AND
2. Apply damage out to 70km AND
3. Have BS tank before taking mobility into consideration.

All at the same time. Even with T3's you have to sacrifice something to get the other.




Dunked.
Celia Therone
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2013-06-04 01:02:38 UTC
Pipernelli Spacemitt wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
This still does 700 DPS @ 25km and has 118k EHP with a couple of mids for whatever you want.


Yet is another fail. Those are both nice fits, but they don't achieve what you had clamed

Riot Girl wrote:
Is it normal for a Cruiser to have BS tank before taking mobility into consideration, capable of close to1000 DPS and applying damage out to 70km? If it's not overpowered, then I guess this is pretty common for many cruiser class ships, right?


Now maybe there was a typo. Maybe you meant to put OR in between those. Or maybe even "pick any two". But you didn't. This is what I was getting at originally. Yes your three facts above are technically true. But you state it in a way that would mislead those unaware with T3's to infer a Tengu can:

1. Be capable of close to 1000 DPS AND
2. Apply damage out to 70km AND
3. Have BS tank before taking mobility into consideration.

All at the same time. Even with T3's you have to sacrifice something to get the other.

Dunked.

If for tank you fit...
Pithi A-Type Small Shield Booster
2x Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Shield Boost amplifier II

Then I think that that qualifies as a BS equivalent tank mostly because of high native resistances and low sig radius. Without moving there are missions in which it will break, especially if you trigger everything but that's true of a lot of battleship tanks as well.

Both the HAM and HML tengus can fit a full rack of t2 lanchers and CN BCU's and still fit that tank, which is sufficient for every (be careful in some Amarr missions/anything with significant neuting) level 4. Note that I am not saying that this is the best tank you can fit or the strongest tank. It's a cap-stable omni tank and has the weaknesses thereof but it is a sufficient tank.

The 1000 dps claim is a little bit shy unless you include implants which can bring you up to 1063dps with scourge rage heavy assault missiles up to 41.2 km and 709dps with scourge javelin out to 74.2. Less defender missiles, which is non-trivial, as is ammo switching time. For most missions with distant rats I expect that you'd be better off with the HML variant that does 814dps out to 70.8km with scourge fury and 604 out to 94.3 with scourge heavy.

The dps numbers are not particularly remarkable imho, especially as you're pretty much in a dead-end skill train and will have to upgrade to a different ship type and weapon size to improve them (discounting making your tengu gank bait by fitting officer mods).

Getting overly caught up on T3's being 'cruiser class' ships is self defeating. They're constructed differently, priced differently and skilled differently. There are a couple of places where they compete with old cruiser roles, like recons, but mostly they are competing with BS roles and have a pretty small window of effectiveness.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#96 - 2013-06-04 05:22:34 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Yes your three facts above are technically true

I know.

Oh god.
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#97 - 2013-06-04 10:36:15 UTC
How to fix T3s :

Fix Subsystems so that every sub is useful at something.

That includes :

- Making a Drone Proteus viable

- Making a neuting Legion actually useful as opposed to the current (Well I had no Bhaalgorns so yeah)

- Add a neutrange bonus and/or a bonus to neut efficiency (consumes less cap while using neuts) to the Legion

- Make Hybrid Tengus viable

- Boost Lokis' DPS to acceptable levels

- Boost Legions' DPS to acceptable levels

- Get a DPS bonus on the Legions' covert sub

- Make it so that the +5% PWG per level sub on the Tengu ACTUALLY GETS YOU MORE PWG. Tengus have to fit the Capacitor Regeneration Matrix in order to make 100MN fits viable. This sub gets you more PWG AND cap stability. If you make the PWG sub actually effective, you'll see Tengus having an additionnal launcher, but they'll have to deal with capacitor problems. Balanced.

- Make it so that the Lokis' dual weapon-system works, please. Currently, there is absolutly no reason to fit one. Alternatively, make it a Missile subsystem.

- Make it so that Shield Lokis are actually good. Currently, they are not. At all. Not worth the price by a long shot. Adaptive Shielding needs an additional medslot (5 medslots are MANDATORY, considering the Lokis' usefulness is linked to its webbing bonus), and speed needs to be looked at. Currently, a Talos, a Gallente Battlecruiser, is faster than a Minmatar cruiser. If fitted with the "Max Speed" sub, it's still slower than every other Minmatar cruiser, but it also becomes bulkier than a Talos.

- Optional class-wide change : Remove rigs and replace them with the appropriate buffs to subsystems. If you want versatility, this is where you get it. Rigs are why everyone buy multiple T3s for different tasks instead of doing what T3s are supposed to be doing, which is being able to change the whole ship with subs.

- WH balancing special change : Find a way to cut Battleship mass by 50/60/70% while changing other values so that their ingame behavior doesn't change. Or add a hidden bonus like -50/-60/-70% mass when jumping in wormholes.

T3s are overused in wormholes because of their mass. No other sub-BS platform can compete with them, and rightly so. If you allow battleships to be used effectively in wormholes, you'll make Battleship-based doctrines possible. Yes, that's a big change, and that WILL yield great results for WHs as a whole.

I'm sure that battleships' overuse in wormholes won't ever be a problem. T3s are still superior to battleships in every way. But at least it will bring some diversity.

And that is all.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2013-06-04 12:11:03 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Yes your three facts above are technically true. But you state it in a way that would mislead

I know.


FTFY
Alsyth
#99 - 2013-06-04 12:58:31 UTC
Problem with T3s imo:

-100MN AB fits: BS tank with frigate-class signature tanking should not exist. (170k EHP, 2.1km/s, 95m...)

-completely outperforms all HACs, most CS and some BSs in gank+tank fits

-approximately half of the subsystems are broken and almost never used

-cloacky ogb with better boosts than CS is lame (hopefully fixed "soon")



Apart from that I think they are fine.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#100 - 2013-06-04 14:17:14 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Yes your three facts above are technically true. But you state it in a way that would mislead

I know.


FTFY


Why do you care? If you're concerned about what new players think, you could have just clarified it for them and been done with it, instead of dragging out this whole embarrassing argument.

Oh god.