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T2 BPO nerf incoming?
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Haulie Berry
#61 - 2013-06-03 14:33:15 UTC
AlphaOperative Altren wrote:
Elena Thiesant wrote:
AlphaOperative Altren wrote:
One other question, can they be copied? If so the 10 year ROI doesn't make sense as you could buy for 10bil run a ton of copies then sell for 10bil but with nice tidy stack of bpcs to play with.


Yes, however if you look at the copy and manufacturing times, they take longer to copy than manufacture.



But the initial outlay for a T2 could be recouped in a matter of months not 10 years as was previously mentioned?


Third grade math class was a pretty trying time for you, I take it.
AlphaOperative Altren
Alternative Rendition
#62 - 2013-06-03 15:43:30 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
AlphaOperative Altren wrote:
Elena Thiesant wrote:
AlphaOperative Altren wrote:
One other question, can they be copied? If so the 10 year ROI doesn't make sense as you could buy for 10bil run a ton of copies then sell for 10bil but with nice tidy stack of bpcs to play with.


Yes, however if you look at the copy and manufacturing times, they take longer to copy than manufacture.



But the initial outlay for a T2 could be recouped in a matter of months not 10 years as was previously mentioned?


Third grade math class was a pretty trying time for you, I take it.


Good one. See why these forums are so popular now.

Nobody ever figures out what life is all about, and it doesn't matter. Explore the world. Nearly everything is really interesting if you go into it deeply enough. ― Richard P. Feynman
Haulie Berry
#63 - 2013-06-03 15:55:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
AlphaOperative Altren wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
AlphaOperative Altren wrote:
Elena Thiesant wrote:
AlphaOperative Altren wrote:
One other question, can they be copied? If so the 10 year ROI doesn't make sense as you could buy for 10bil run a ton of copies then sell for 10bil but with nice tidy stack of bpcs to play with.


Yes, however if you look at the copy and manufacturing times, they take longer to copy than manufacture.



But the initial outlay for a T2 could be recouped in a matter of months not 10 years as was previously mentioned?


Third grade math class was a pretty trying time for you, I take it.


Good one. See why these forums are so popular now.


Well, what do you want? I wrote a pretty thorough post about the ROI for T2 BPOs and your "counterpoint" is that, instead of manufacturing from them, you could do something that lowers the ROI even further.

What's the expected level of propriety you're looking for in response to that, exactly?
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2013-06-03 16:24:21 UTC
AlphaOperative Altren wrote:
Elena Thiesant wrote:
AlphaOperative Altren wrote:
One other question, can they be copied? If so the 10 year ROI doesn't make sense as you could buy for 10bil run a ton of copies then sell for 10bil but with nice tidy stack of bpcs to play with.


Yes, however if you look at the copy and manufacturing times, they take longer to copy than manufacture.



But the initial outlay for a T2 could be recouped in a matter of months not 10 years as was previously mentioned?


Err.. how?

Let's say that a T2 BPO as a ROI of 10 years assuming it's in manufacturing 24/7/365. That means, in 10 years you will have recouped the cost of buying it.

Now, let's say you copied the BPO instead of manufacturing from it. A single-run copy of a T2 BPO takes longer than manufacturing a single run, so you run copies and then manufacture from the copies, meaning that the BPO is in copying 24/7/365 and in your manufacturing line is sometimes idle (or running other stuff). So in 10 years you'll have recouped less of your initial investment than you would have had you been manufacturing from the BPO full time.
Haulie Berry
#65 - 2013-06-03 16:27:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Elena Thiesant wrote:
AlphaOperative Altren wrote:
Elena Thiesant wrote:
AlphaOperative Altren wrote:
One other question, can they be copied? If so the 10 year ROI doesn't make sense as you could buy for 10bil run a ton of copies then sell for 10bil but with nice tidy stack of bpcs to play with.


Yes, however if you look at the copy and manufacturing times, they take longer to copy than manufacture.



But the initial outlay for a T2 could be recouped in a matter of months not 10 years as was previously mentioned?


Err.. how?

Let's say that a T2 BPO as a ROI of 10 years assuming it's in manufacturing 24/7/365. That means, in 10 years you will have recouped the cost of buying it.


This is just going to confuse him further, because he (obviously) doesn't understand that ROI is a measure of performance of the investment, and not just about when you get your seed money back.
News Group
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2013-06-03 16:53:19 UTC
I like bacon.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#67 - 2013-06-03 17:00:04 UTC
News Group wrote:
I like bacon.

You had to bring up bacon...


mmmm...

Hey it's lunch time, BRB........
AlphaOperative Altren
Alternative Rendition
#68 - 2013-06-03 17:39:37 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
Elena Thiesant wrote:
AlphaOperative Altren wrote:
Elena Thiesant wrote:
AlphaOperative Altren wrote:
One other question, can they be copied? If so the 10 year ROI doesn't make sense as you could buy for 10bil run a ton of copies then sell for 10bil but with nice tidy stack of bpcs to play with.


Yes, however if you look at the copy and manufacturing times, they take longer to copy than manufacture.



But the initial outlay for a T2 could be recouped in a matter of months not 10 years as was previously mentioned?


Err.. how?

Let's say that a T2 BPO as a ROI of 10 years assuming it's in manufacturing 24/7/365. That means, in 10 years you will have recouped the cost of buying it.


This is just going to confuse him further, because he (obviously) doesn't understand that ROI is a measure of performance of the investment, and not just about when you get your seed money back.



Lol. I bow to your superior intellect.

If you guys genuinely can't see any way of getting an ROI on T2BPO in under 10 years then that's just hilarious. I think I'm done with this conversation. Fly safe lol

Nobody ever figures out what life is all about, and it doesn't matter. Explore the world. Nearly everything is really interesting if you go into it deeply enough. ― Richard P. Feynman
Haulie Berry
#69 - 2013-06-03 17:59:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
AlphaOperative Altren wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:


This is just going to confuse him further, because he (obviously) doesn't understand that ROI is a measure of performance of the investment, and not just about when you get your seed money back.



Lol. I bow to your superior intellect.

If you guys genuinely can't see any way of getting an ROI on T2BPO in under 10 years then that's just hilarious. I think I'm done with this conversation. Fly safe lol



Boy, did I ever call that one. Lol

Read this. It's about you.
AlphaOperative Altren
Alternative Rendition
#70 - 2013-06-03 18:15:29 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
AlphaOperative Altren wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:


This is just going to confuse him further, because he (obviously) doesn't understand that ROI is a measure of performance of the investment, and not just about when you get your seed money back.



Lol. I bow to your superior intellect.

If you guys genuinely can't see any way of getting an ROI on T2BPO in under 10 years then that's just hilarious. I think I'm done with this conversation. Fly safe lol



Boy, did I ever call that one. Lol

Read this. It's about you.


Lol, I love it when people use this study to prove their superiority.

Nobody ever figures out what life is all about, and it doesn't matter. Explore the world. Nearly everything is really interesting if you go into it deeply enough. ― Richard P. Feynman
Haulie Berry
#71 - 2013-06-03 18:21:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
I'm sure you have some very nice qualities as a person, but in this particular instance, you are, beyond doubt, so incompetent that you're incapable of even understanding that you're incompetent.

As a for-instance, you don't actually seem to understand what ROI means. You seem to think it is a measure of time until you get your seed money back into the form of cash.

It's not. Absent any increase in the value of a BPO, selling it before 10 years does not increase its ROI one bit. See if you can figure out why.

Oh, hell, I already know you can't.

It's because ROI is Profit/AmountInvested for a given period of time.

If we have a 10billion isk print that has a "10 year ROI", what we're really saying is that it earns about 83.3 million per month. We're not actually getting our money back in 10 years - we're DOUBLING our money. After 10 years - we will have a 10 billion isk capital asset + the 10 billion in profit the asset has made us.

If I run it for 10 months, and then sell the print for what I paid, I'll have 10 billion + ~833 million in profit from the print, which will be an 8.33% ROI for a 10 month period, which is still the same percentage gain per month.

It has NOTHING to do with how long it takes me to convert my investment back into cash - it's a measure of the PROFIT that investment is generating, relative to the money tied up in it.

Since it takes longer to copy than to manufacture, all copying would do is produce an even lower profit in the same time frame, reducing ROI even further.

I'm sure we would all be delighted and amused to hear about how you, with your wealth of internet-space investment knowledge, would improve the ROI, though. Please, wow me with numbers. Lol

For funsies:

I maintain a 1 billion isk wallet division as an invention budget. Any incomes and expenses related to invention go through this wallet. Whenever the quantity in the wallet exceeds 1 billion, I scrape the excess off into a separate division titled "hookers and blow".

Journal entries for H&B division (these are all deposits):

5/24: 164,628,809.10
5/28: 256,508,223.45
6/02: 81,585,252.27
6/03: 189,159,544.83

This is hobbyist level invention, being performed merely to fill out excess capacity on the POS, and not as a primary "career". My budget division has yet to dip below 600 million. An efficient operation would blow the doors off of this.

The cheapest T2 BPO on public contracts right now is a Gleam S print, with an asking price of 15 billion isk. A rough estimate (meaning, "I just used IPH for this") of its monthly profit with perfect ME and PE, using an ammo array, comes out to (drumroll)....

65,447,244.
AlphaOperative Altren
Alternative Rendition
#72 - 2013-06-03 20:03:00 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
I'm sure you have some very nice qualities as a person, but in this particular instance, you are, beyond doubt, so incompetent that you're incapable of even understanding that you're incompetent.

As a for-instance, you don't actually seem to understand what ROI means. You seem to think it is a measure of time until you get your seed money back into the form of cash.

It's not. Absent any increase in the value of a BPO, selling it before 10 years does not increase its ROI one bit. See if you can figure out why.

Oh, hell, I already know you can't.

It's because ROI is Profit/AmountInvested for a given period of time.

If we have a 10billion isk print that has a "10 year ROI", what we're really saying is that it earns about 83.3 million per month. We're not actually getting our money back in 10 years - we're DOUBLING our money. After 10 years - we will have a 10 billion isk capital asset + the 10 billion in profit the asset has made us.

If I run it for 10 months, and then sell the print for what I paid, I'll have 10 billion + ~833 million in profit from the print, which will be an 8.33% ROI for a 10 month period, which is still the same percentage gain per month.

It has NOTHING to do with how long it takes me to convert my investment back into cash - it's a measure of the PROFIT that investment is generating, relative to the money tied up in it.

Since it takes longer to copy than to manufacture, all copying would do is produce an even lower profit in the same time frame, reducing ROI even further.

I'm sure we would all be delighted and amused to hear about how you, with your wealth of internet-space investment knowledge, would improve the ROI, though. Please, wow me with numbers. Lol

For funsies:

I maintain a 1 billion isk wallet division as an invention budget. Any incomes and expenses related to invention go through this wallet. Whenever the quantity in the wallet exceeds 1 billion, I scrape the excess off into a separate division titled "hookers and blow".

Journal entries for H&B division (these are all deposits):

5/24: 164,628,809.10
5/28: 256,508,223.45
6/02: 81,585,252.27
6/03: 189,159,544.83

This is hobbyist level invention, being performed merely to fill out excess capacity on the POS, and not as a primary "career". My budget division has yet to dip below 600 million. An efficient operation would blow the doors off of this.

The cheapest T2 BPO on public contracts right now is a Gleam S print, with an asking price of 15 billion isk. A rough estimate (meaning, "I just used IPH for this") of its monthly profit with perfect ME and PE, using an ammo array, comes out to (drumroll)....

65,447,244.



Aw hell! I'm too impressed to be mad at you! :-)

I concede good sir!

Nobody ever figures out what life is all about, and it doesn't matter. Explore the world. Nearly everything is really interesting if you go into it deeply enough. ― Richard P. Feynman
Haulie Berry
#73 - 2013-06-03 20:08:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Also, say I'm done with invention for the month. I'm up 690 million.

If I wanted to make just that 690/mo from a BPO, and I got a real deal on a BPO (call it a 7 year ROI), I could expect to spend...

690*12*7 = 58 billion isk on a BPO.

That's how bad T2 BPOs are (unless, as covered earlier, you are already INSANELY spacerich).

If I liquidated all of my assets, I could afford to pay that for a BPO...

...or I could just keep budgeting 1 billion for a half-assed invention operation. It's an easy decision.

Even if you can STEAL a T2 BPO, you will almost always be better off selling it and reinvesting the money than you will be producing from it.
Ginger Barbarella
#74 - 2013-06-03 21:05:40 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
Also, say I'm done with invention for the month. I'm up 690 million.

If I wanted to make just that 690/mo from a BPO, and I got a real deal on a BPO (call it a 7 year ROI), I could expect to spend...

690*12*7 = 58 billion isk on a BPO.

That's how bad T2 BPOs are (unless, as covered earlier, you are already INSANELY spacerich).

If I liquidated all of my assets, I could afford to pay that for a BPO...

...or I could just keep budgeting 1 billion for a half-assed invention operation. It's an easy decision.

Even if you can STEAL a T2 BPO, you will almost always be better off selling it and reinvesting the money than you will be producing from it.



Basic meanness from Haulie aside, I have to agree. I have a few minor T2 BPOs, and honestly haven't even used them for nearly two years (no, I'm not selling them). It's just easier to manage income and expenses with invention.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
AlphaOperative Altren
Alternative Rendition
#75 - 2013-06-03 21:22:57 UTC
Hello!

Can't we just let this thread (and my embarassment) die please :-)

As you can tell I'm only just dipping my toe in invention for the first time & was moved to comment on the forums for the first time in 2 1/2 years playing at the percieved injustice of it all.

Funny thing, i went on blueprint chat channel about an hour ago to sell some stuff and they were all debating how sweet it would be to have Crystal T2BPOs.

Nobody ever figures out what life is all about, and it doesn't matter. Explore the world. Nearly everything is really interesting if you go into it deeply enough. ― Richard P. Feynman
Ginger Barbarella
#76 - 2013-06-03 22:50:11 UTC
AlphaOperative Altren wrote:
Hello!

Can't we just let this thread (and my embarassment) die please :-)

As you can tell I'm only just dipping my toe in invention for the first time & was moved to comment on the forums for the first time in 2 1/2 years playing at the percieved injustice of it all.

Funny thing, i went on blueprint chat channel about an hour ago to sell some stuff and they were all debating how sweet it would be to have Crystal T2BPOs.


It's only sweet until either a) the market is saturated or b) the market is cornered by someone or a single faction. Then it's "move on to the next big thing!"

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#77 - 2013-06-04 01:02:18 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
AlphaOperative Altren wrote:
Hello!

Can't we just let this thread (and my embarassment) die please :-)

As you can tell I'm only just dipping my toe in invention for the first time & was moved to comment on the forums for the first time in 2 1/2 years playing at the percieved injustice of it all.

Funny thing, i went on blueprint chat channel about an hour ago to sell some stuff and they were all debating how sweet it would be to have Crystal T2BPOs.


It would be (at least if you got them for free*)... it's just that you'd then be best off selling them and using the resulting ISK for more profitable** or interesting investments.



*i.e. Stole them, magic, etc. The lottery was not, in any sense of the word, free.
** in terms of Profit/Investment rather than absolute numbers.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#78 - 2013-06-04 01:07:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Haulie Berry wrote:


5/24: 164,628,809.10
5/28: 256,508,223.45
6/02: 81,585,252.27
6/03: 189,159,544.83

This is hobbyist level invention, being performed merely to fill out excess capacity on the POS, and not as a primary "career". My budget division has yet to dip below 600 million. An efficient operation would blow the doors off of this.

The cheapest T2 BPO on public contracts right now is a Gleam S print, with an asking price of 15 billion isk. A rough estimate (meaning, "I just used IPH for this") of its monthly profit with perfect ME and PE, using an ammo array, comes out to (drumroll)....

65,447,244.


Thats a BPO with a 19 year ROI - ie your selection criteria for T2 BPOs isn't exactly rational. You can (a) do better than that, and (b) queue up a good BPO for a month in a station, stick some resaonable buy orders on the market and go on holiday for 4 weeks, and still have your profits, and get back in time to requeue a few days worth whilst you get orders filled.

Invention is much better at extracting percentage returns on smaller amounts of capital for someone with plenty of login time and enthusiasm, but t2 bpos are a great profit/slot/time balance, especially if your capital is a sufficiently large lump as to be market unwieldy and thus unavoidably lazy or even queue slot or keyboard time bound.
Haulie Berry
#79 - 2013-06-04 01:18:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Tauranon wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:


5/24: 164,628,809.10
5/28: 256,508,223.45
6/02: 81,585,252.27
6/03: 189,159,544.83

This is hobbyist level invention, being performed merely to fill out excess capacity on the POS, and not as a primary "career". My budget division has yet to dip below 600 million. An efficient operation would blow the doors off of this.

The cheapest T2 BPO on public contracts right now is a Gleam S print, with an asking price of 15 billion isk. A rough estimate (meaning, "I just used IPH for this") of its monthly profit with perfect ME and PE, using an ammo array, comes out to (drumroll)....

65,447,244.


Thats a BPO with a 19 year ROI - ie your selection criteria for T2 BPOs isn't exactly rational. You can (a) do better than that, and (b) queue up a good BPO for a month in a station, stick some resaonable buy orders on the market and go on holiday for 4 weeks, and still have your profits, and get back in time to requeue a few days worth whilst you get orders filled.

Invention is much better at extracting percentage returns on smaller amounts of capital for someone with plenty of login time and enthusiasm, but t2 bpos are a great profit/slot/time balance, especially if your capital is a sufficiently large lump as to be market unwieldy and thus unavoidably lazy or even queue slot or keyboard time bound.



Hey, way to say **** that I already said back on every other page of this thread.

Repeatedly.

I don't know how we would have done it without you.
Amathius M
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2013-06-26 00:20:09 UTC
What is with the T2 BPO Brain damage?

YES They are an "Unfair" Advantage (stop trying so hard to deny this) .... but eve isnt fair? Imho Skip the BS , buy the finished item and trade it across markets.

(And tbh , BPOs take MONTHS if not YEARS to recoup costs .... its like taking out a very HIGH value loan with no interest..... bad investment IMO)

T2BPOs were OBVIOUS tools for dev's to give to thier pet corps for an advantage, BOB anyone?. Prob alot more than that going on imo . ( I mean lets get real here - "Limited edition items , handed out in a "lottery" .... but also in backdoor to buddies? .... sure!)

The thing is its a KNOWN fact that these BPOs were handed out like candy to friends etc. of the games actual staff - Herp derp. Done deal. CLEARLY an "Unfair" advantage meant for exactly* that - but also entirely their initiative , the games staff is completely entitled to doing stuff like that , theres also a big reason why EVE is such a Niche game - its small time - for a reason* .. though thats another thread entirely.

In anycase . . .

It takes alot of thinking to buy and sell and make profit but it is most certainly doable. Buy the finished product low and sell high. Marketing reduced to pure principles. Just remove the BS out of the equation.

Being sour over someone else's stupidity is ... well ... stupid. If you HATE them that much , just buy them , delete the item. End of story. Supposedly there are no more being made - but id not put my money on it. I mean , fabrication in some space station between a dev and his buddies would prob never get picked up.

Point is - No sense getting worked up over this but I see it alot so id thought I would put in my two cents which is basically - Cut out the BS and just trade the Finished items for profit.