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Why is there no way for us to attack supply lines in eve?

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Stonecrusher Mortlock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#641 - 2013-06-03 15:14:26 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:



yep so long as its so EASY to move everything you make in high sec to null, O SO EASY, buy it at jita jump to low sec dock undock jump home.


Would you like to loan us the 40 trillion isk we'd need to be able to make Some stuff in null. You'd also need to help us defend it.....or I could just go to high sec and get it for free while concord defends me.

You keep looking at the symptom, not the cause. The cause is high sec.




the cause is how easy it is to get things from high sec to null, NOT the fact you can make things in highsec.


If the only place you could do industry was null sec and low sec guess what? all industry would be done in low sec and the goods shipped to null because? its safer to do it in low sec.


safety plays the role here, not cost.


NPC corps.

CYNOS/jumpdrives

are what cause this safety issue.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#642 - 2013-06-03 15:14:51 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
So you don't believe that pushing hisec industry from NPC facilities to POSes would be a step towards the goal of making nullsec industry more viable?
No. Just more tedious and horrible for everyone unless POSes were like stations, in which case, why not just fix the stations?

Moving highsec industry to POSes would just mean that the (supposedly) nullsec industry is done in highsec POSes rather than highsec stations due to the numerous other benefits highsec industry has. No matter what other solution you choose, those benefits need to be compensated for.



So nullsec's highsec alts would just plant highsec pos's all over the place? Where does that solve any problems?

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#643 - 2013-06-03 15:15:24 UTC
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
Alphea Abbra wrote:
[The reason you can't wardec is because you're in a NPC corp yourself.

NPC corps most likely can't dock in any give null-station.
Maybe in provi-bloc (NRDS space), I'm not sure, but they can't in S2N stations, I can assure you that.

So, what your saying in that all your JF's are IN alliance? so if i wardec you there not doing to drop out set there neutral alts to +10 and set minimum docking right's to +10 and avoid the high sec war?

They would be complete morons not to.
I don't know what "people" in S2N do, but I can assure you that the many members offering freighter service can't do this. There may be ways to get around this - having a neutral freighter take it to an NPC station in low or pirate 0.0, transfer over and ship again, but no, standings aren't set for NPC corps or alts just to make your deliveries.
And, just so you're aware, you need to be in a player corp before you can do any wardeccing.
It might have passed you by that it is one of the reasons why you can't successfully wardec anyone.

I do know some of the deliveries aren't made in-alliance, but with either alt-alliances or corps with standings set beforehand... but these you could wardec if you were in a player corp.
Our docking rights aren't for +10, btw, more like +2.5 AFAIK (Some stations at least).

So, when will you begin using arguments that conform with reality?
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#644 - 2013-06-03 15:20:09 UTC
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:



yep so long as its so EASY to move everything you make in high sec to null, O SO EASY, buy it at jita jump to low sec dock undock jump home.


Would you like to loan us the 40 trillion isk we'd need to be able to make Some stuff in null. You'd also need to help us defend it.....or I could just go to high sec and get it for free while concord defends me.

You keep looking at the symptom, not the cause. The cause is high sec.




the cause is how easy it is to get things from high sec to null, NOT the fact you can make things in highsec.


If the only place you could do industry was null sec and low sec guess what? all industry would be done in low sec and the goods shipped to null because? its safer to do it in low sec.


safety plays the role here, not cost.


NPC corps.

CYNOS/jumpdrives

are what cause this safety issue.


That's the same as blaming Chevy (the car maker) for drunk driving accidents "because they made the car".

Cynos and such may make the problem worse, but they don't cause it.

You cling to the idea that if you just make it harder to move stuff people will be FORCED to do it locally even though the game mechanics suck. People don't do things in a video game that sucks, they do other things or they quit.

I ask again, you willing to pay 40 trillion so null people can have a hope of doing it in null?

What would happen is (because people are naturally risk averse, thus "the blob" and people hiding in npc corps) fewer fights would happen because losses would be harder to replace. That hurts everyone in the game because the game is about a player driven market.

i just think it's the same kind fo dumb thinking as when ccp nerfed anoms and expected more fighting but ended up seeing people leave null sec. EVE doesn't need more of that.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#645 - 2013-06-03 15:22:10 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
YOU (null resident) wanted to "carve out your own empire and be the master of your domain". Guess it's up to "you" to do it.
Too bad the game doesn't allow it.



Sure it does. We have talked it over for quite some pages now. You just choose to ignore it because it doesn't service your needs.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#646 - 2013-06-03 15:23:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
You mean minerals you cannot MINE in null. You can still get the minerals needed for production in null.
…but not in the quantities needed.

Quote:
So based on that information you would rather nerf highsec stations, or would you clamor for changes to pos?
…or a nerf to highsec stations to create a margin where other production methods could be better than they are, followed by a buff to outposts, and a revamp of POSes for some unrelated purpose.

I'll take the latter, please.

Quote:
Because the discussion here is slighting towards the former
Not really, no. You're just missing out on half of the actual suggestions and the reasons why they need to happen in conjunction with an overall rebalance effort.



You mean one person cannot do it alone. You are right. On a a corp or alliance level it would take the effort of quite a few. But it can be done.

But nerfing highsec's industry does not magically improve null's. Because you still have the means to access the area, you will access the area.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#647 - 2013-06-03 15:23:29 UTC
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:



yep so long as its so EASY to move everything you make in high sec to null, O SO EASY, buy it at jita jump to low sec dock undock jump home.


Would you like to loan us the 40 trillion isk we'd need to be able to make Some stuff in null. You'd also need to help us defend it.....or I could just go to high sec and get it for free while concord defends me.

You keep looking at the symptom, not the cause. The cause is high sec.


the cause is how easy it is to get things from high sec to null, NOT the fact you can make things in highsec.


The sooner you accept that you're wrong in this, the better. You need to understand that there's no way that 0.0 inhabitants are going to accept massive price hikes for the dubious privilege of living in sov space. As long as you stubbornly resist this simple fact, you're going to be disappointed in this thread, and in what CCP are going to do.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Stonecrusher Mortlock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#648 - 2013-06-03 15:23:53 UTC
Alphea Abbra wrote:
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
Alphea Abbra wrote:
[The reason you can't wardec is because you're in a NPC corp yourself.

NPC corps most likely can't dock in any give null-station.
Maybe in provi-bloc (NRDS space), I'm not sure, but they can't in S2N stations, I can assure you that.

So, what your saying in that all your JF's are IN alliance? so if i wardec you there not doing to drop out set there neutral alts to +10 and set minimum docking right's to +10 and avoid the high sec war?

They would be complete morons not to.
I don't know what "people" in S2N do, but I can assure you that the many members offering freighter service can't do this. There may be ways to get around this - having a neutral freighter take it to an NPC station in low or pirate 0.0, transfer over and ship again, but no, standings aren't set for NPC corps or alts just to make your deliveries.
And, just so you're aware, you need to be in a player corp before you can do any wardeccing.
It might have passed you by that it is one of the reasons why you can't successfully wardec anyone.

I do know some of the deliveries aren't made in-alliance, but with either alt-alliances or corps with standings set beforehand... but these you could wardec if you were in a player corp.
Our docking rights aren't for +10, btw, more like +2.5 AFAIK (Some stations at least).

So, when will you begin using arguments that conform with reality?



You do know alliance directors can set an individual's standings correct, witch allow them to dock at and station that is set to allow that standing level to dock. So any alliance that knows what its doing WILL set your hauling alt with the correct standings to do this if you ask and prove YOU are the person doing it, so you can avoid all tho's pesky high sec war decs null alliance pick up.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#649 - 2013-06-03 15:27:03 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
YOU (null resident) wanted to "carve out your own empire and be the master of your domain". Guess it's up to "you" to do it.
Too bad the game doesn't allow it.



Sure it does. We have talked it over for quite some pages now. You just choose to ignore it because it doesn't service your needs.


Exactly. You are suggesting people act against their own best interests? How does that make any sense? Who would do that in a video game?

Like I always say about you, you are arguing just to argue. Sure , you COULD do this or that, but what people actually do is the issue. I could live totally in null sec, but I'd have to take so many hits and deal with so much tedium or just go without stuff that it makes no sense, so I (and the rest of null sec) are effectively enslaved to High Sec.

America could exist without OPEC oil, but that existence would be hard, much harder than simply paying money to people we don't like and who don't like us till we can figure out cold fusion......
Stonecrusher Mortlock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#650 - 2013-06-03 15:28:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Stonecrusher Mortlock
Jenn aSide wrote:
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
Dirael Papier wrote:
Got through like, half the thread before I gave up. Seems like it was the same arguments cycling. Also I have no real experience with null industry or logistics since I've been a highsec carebear most of my EVE life so feel free to tell me if this sounds stupid.

So, all that said, the idea of POSs being a bigger part of nullsec industry sounds interesting to me. Easier for an alliance to scale up to fit their needs (more/fewer POSs) and more crap to shoot at for invading alliances that want to hurt their rival's industrial capacity.

Since an obvious counter to this (besides the cost of running a POS) is that they would just be used in HS anyways, I'm wondering if there would be any way to make POS mods/ system upgrades that significantly increase the manufacturing capability of a POS and are only useable in sov nullsec? Would the fuel cost still be too high do you think?




But would that really make them do industry in null?

Or would they still chose to ferry goods from high sec to null and raw items to high sec so long as it was easier and safer to do so?


You answered your own question lol.

I don't see why you are on this crusade for something that won't happen. It's been explained to you why it won't work, yet you persist without thinking. You are not convincing anyone of anything and your rambling is just hurting your own cause.

Again, the main problems need fixing, THEN people can talk about vulnerability of trade routes (not supply lines).



And what are the main problems? I told you what the problems would be even IF they gave null the ability to do industry.



Jenn aSide wrote:
of trade routes (not supply lines)



If im new to the null playing field, and have no space in witch to do industry or gain resources, and use high sec to help me do this war, its a SUPPLY LINE.


If i currently live in null sec and have a surplus of items to sell and move them to high sec or low sec or npc null or my allies null, its a TRADE ROUTE.


There words, that all involve the movement of goods.


Edit spelling. x2
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#651 - 2013-06-03 15:29:23 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Adeh Gamalar wrote:

Stop being so condescending.



He's not being condescending (yet lol), he's utterly destroying your argument. You're leaving so many variables out (on purpose it seems) that Malcanis could drive a Dread through the gaps. I mean seriopusly, you're demonstrating that you don't really know what you are talkign about (example "the minerals will cost the same"...minerals you can't get in null sec?).

Malcanis is illustrating a point I've made several times in this thread: the shear incredible amount of changes needed to the game to make any of this nostalgic "attack the convoy! Ho!" crap would would probably involve so much dev time and game reworking that that it would probably be cheaper and faster for CCP to make a whole new game called "Space Convoy Attack" than do in any of the things people are suggesting.

Things do need to change, but the need to change in a reasonable way and CCP need knowledgeable advice from players for that to happen. "Force null sec players to use crappy industry" is not reasonable advice.



And, just to add, Malcanis sucks (there, now no one can accuse me of Malcanese Jock Riding Twisted ) .



You mean minerals you cannot MINE in null. You can still get the minerals needed for production in null.

Mind the gap!


And to do that you have to shoot yourself in the foot.

Sure, you can make people salvage sites OR you can do then quicky and efficently and make the REAL isk from the escalations (each completed anomaly represents 1 chance for escalation to the good stuff).

So there's the choice, make people do something that isn't fun (going back and salvaging sites or using a marauder and juggling guns, target painters and tractor/salvagers) OR do it right in less tedious but more profitable (and for some of us, fun) way and only have to worry about how you're going to get that mach/nightmare/bhaalgorn/etc BPC or deadspace mod back to empire for some mission runner to buy.

Some choice there. It's the same choice for explorers and anom farmers in null as it is for industrialists: Take stuff to high sec and bring finihsed goods back are break your back and do it for yourself more expensivley in null. The Choice that invovles high sec is just faster and easier. Jump-ships help but even without jump-ships it would be easeir to stuff the loot into a cloaky/nullifed tech3 or transport and run it 30 jumps to Jita and use the isk there than it is to do what you suggest.



You are already there making the wrecks. You already have the other pilots to do the work (supposedly), and it would accomplish self efficiency.

You either want that or you don't.

Sorry it's :effort: -shrug-.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#652 - 2013-06-03 15:30:48 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:


The only way you lose a JF is by being a complete moron, and any one that dose logistics for any group is far from it.

There for to safe.


You light your cyno and the JF jumps in. Because you've used your usual spot on the usual station, there's a cloaked stealthbomber waiting between you and the station. He lights his cyno the instant you jump in, and a dreadnaught plus a couple of tackle ships jump in and you get bumped out of docking range by the suddenly appearing dread. You don't have enough cap to jump out and you're quickly pointed. The dreadnaught melts you in a few seconds.

The only counter is to never jump into a system with any hostiles in. If you follow this rule, your route is trivially interdictable.



I don't think you've ever pvp'd in null, or lived in a null system you had to defend.

If you think only 1 bookmark is gonna cut it....

Hell, I have 15 if not more per system just to be ready to follow a FC's commands. Perches, safes, warp ins for all gates, belts, points of interests (pos/stations/etc)

That's not even counting the routes I use as home system or regular ratting areas. That's just staging areas.

Any JF only using 1 bm to lend himself to be dependable onto a warp in deserves to be dropped.


And yet the "invulnerable" "immune" JFs keep dying....



Because of a mechanic, or pilot error? For every ONE JF that dies, there's 200 that don't. That's a pretty damned good ratio for a game that boasts "if it undocks it dies" mentality.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#653 - 2013-06-03 15:34:26 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:



You are already there making the wrecks. You already have the other pilots to do the work (supposedly), and it would accomplish self efficiency.

You either want that or you don't.

Sorry it's :effort: -shrug-.


And as usual, you don't get it.

The flaw in your thinking is the notion that "if we wanted that,. we do that". What you miss is that if the price of "doing what it takes to do that" is too high, no one does it. It works that way in real life as it does in game, and that you don't understand that indicates a lack of life experience.

For people do do things in a video game environment it has to be somewhat enjoyable or beneficial. No one takes the kind of pain doing what you suggest involves just to prove some kind of point.
Stonecrusher Mortlock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#654 - 2013-06-03 15:36:28 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:



Because of a mechanic, or pilot error? For every ONE JF that dies, there's 200 that don't. That's a pretty damned good ratio for a game that boasts "if it undocks it dies" mentality.



Most of tho's dead JF's die to sever lag, and spawning to a cynos thats 1 pixel to near a station so they are bumped out of dock range, or to plain STUPID jumping got unknown cyno beacon with out scouting.


So, i do call a ship that only died to Shoving rocks up there nose stupid errors, or game bugs/flaws, to be WAY to safe.


Just think how many carriers/SC/titans would die if they had to use gates part of the time.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#655 - 2013-06-03 15:42:50 UTC
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:



You do know alliance directors can set an individual's standings correct, witch allow them to dock at and station that is set to allow that standing level to dock. So any alliance that knows what its doing WILL set your hauling alt with the correct standings to do this if you ask and prove YOU are the person doing it, so you can avoid all tho's pesky high sec war decs null alliance pick up.


So use a spy, get thats corps name and war dec it.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#656 - 2013-06-03 15:43:06 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
James 420 wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
CCP dont agree with you.

They want 0.0 empires to be 99% self sufficient.


[citation needed]



CCPs white board.



Please tell me you have something more than that to go on.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#657 - 2013-06-03 15:47:18 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:



Please tell me you have something more than that to go on.


Why would I need it? Thats the next 5 years right there.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#658 - 2013-06-03 15:55:12 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:



Please tell me you have something more than that to go on.


Why would I need it? Thats the next 5 years right there.


it's always funny when someone who has nothing more than mistaken and illogical ideas goes all "is that all you got" when presented some evidence.

Some evidence trumps ZERO evidence every day of the week.
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#659 - 2013-06-03 15:59:30 UTC
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
If the only place you could do industry was null sec and low sec guess what? all industry would be done in low sec and the goods shipped to null because? its safer to do it in low sec.


safety plays the role here, not cost.


NPC corps.

CYNOS/jumpdrives

are what cause this safety issue.


NPC corps are not really part of the logistics problem. I think the part of the problem you are addressing by saying that is alts. Even if every logistics character was in a war dec'able player corp, alliances would just have those characters in a bunch of different corporations, and whatever characters weren't under a war dec, those would be the ones doing the logistics for the alliance that week. And, if there was a single NPC corp player you knew was doing logistics for an alliance, you could disrupt what he/she was doing, even without shooting him. And, if that NPC corp logistician went to low/null/wormhole space, then being an NPC corp player would make his corp ticker almost meaningless.

The problem isn't really NPC corp players. It's NPC corp alts. The only way to fix that part of the equation is to a) remove CONCORD or b) magically disallow alting. Neither "solution" would solve as many problems as it created.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#660 - 2013-06-03 16:09:26 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
if i recall correctly, 2011 was only two years ago



I think a timeline of patches is more relevant than years or days.

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