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Why is there no way for us to attack supply lines in eve?

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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#621 - 2013-06-03 14:37:24 UTC
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:

SO, as a CSM member do something about Null blocks and just about every other scrub in the game useing NPC corp to hide there hauling/mining/indy/reserch/ what have you alts.


Nerf CONCORD?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#622 - 2013-06-03 14:38:38 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
I

We're not saying "Hi-sec industry is eeeeeevil and must be punished. 0.0 industry is God's Will!" We're saying that it's far too difficult and unprofitable to conduct industry in sov 0.0 compared to how easy and cheap it is in hi-sec. Instead of hisec industry being the easiest and the most profitable, it should be easier but less profitable.



That's nice but the only way you'll get industry in nullsec is by completely destroying it in highsec. There are many things more profitable in lowsec and nullsec yet people remain in highsec because unless you're the top dog with firewalls all over the place keeping you safe, then people simply won't take the risk even if it's more profitable.

So when you say you want better industry for nullsec, be honest and say you want more profits for the most powerful that already have more isk and assets then they know what to do with.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#623 - 2013-06-03 14:43:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Sentamon
Malcanis wrote:
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:

SO, as a CSM member do something about Null blocks and just about every other scrub in the game useing NPC corp to hide there hauling/mining/indy/reserch/ what have you alts.


Nerf CONCORD?


It's not a bad idea. Slap a 1 week suspect timer on anyone that enters nullsec or interacts in any way friendly with someone that was in nullsec and see what happens. Pirate

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#624 - 2013-06-03 14:47:17 UTC
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
Because if i could war dec the haulers, my problems would all ready be solved, and i could send all day flying around high sec shooting JF's.

now, if you let me wardec NPC corps, i will go have a mod delete this thread.

SO, as a CSM member do something about Null blocks and just about every other scrub in the game useing NPC corp to hide there hauling/mining/indy/reserch/ what have you alts.

FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT.

that would be a boon for all you null sec guys as well, MORE HIGH SEC TEARS.

DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT.
The reason you can't wardec is because you're in a NPC corp yourself.

NPC corps most likely can't dock in any give null-station.
Maybe in provi-bloc (NRDS space), I'm not sure, but they can't in S2N stations, I can assure you that.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#625 - 2013-06-03 14:48:14 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
I

We're not saying "Hi-sec industry is eeeeeevil and must be punished. 0.0 industry is God's Will!" We're saying that it's far too difficult and unprofitable to conduct industry in sov 0.0 compared to how easy and cheap it is in hi-sec. Instead of hisec industry being the easiest and the most profitable, it should be easier but less profitable.



That's nice but the only way you'll get industry in nullsec is by completely destroying it in highsec. There are many things more profitable in lowsec and nullsec yet people remain in highsec because unless you're the top dog with firewalls all over the place keeping you safe, then people simply won't take the risk even if it's more profitable.

So when you say you want better industry for nullsec, be honest and say you want more profits for the most powerful that already have more isk and assets then they know what to do with.


How do you get from "people won't take risks" to "null sec just wants more money".

That's the "everyone in null is rich" lie and it doesn't make much sense. I just looked at my assets and "personal tech moon" wasn't there.

We've told you what we want: for null players to be able to play in NULL rather than be effectively shacked to high sec industry/isk making alts. No one is advocating a reverse to the dependency (ie high sec become the slave of null the way null is now), we want equality of opportunity.

The only way to get that is for some nerfing of high sec industry, because no matter what, null sec just can't ever be equal as long as so much if FREE in high sec.
Stonecrusher Mortlock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#626 - 2013-06-03 14:51:17 UTC


I said over and over and over, GO HEAD BUFF NULL make it have the ability to supply its self, BUT at the same time let high sec supply null as well if you wish to do it that way, the ONLY way to make that plan work is nurfing the movement of supply's.


i will explain it one more time.



IF you buff null sec industry, you cant make it BETTER than high sec with out breaking the hole game.
Buff it till it CAN effectively do industry but with all the risk of it being null sec. Your not trying to compete with high sec you just need the ability to supply your self + profit.


how is that done with out breaking high sec?


you nurf the ability to make easy trips to high sec and get what you need.


Do, you under stand it yet?



Even If you let null do ALL of its industry, so long as you have a supper easy way to get your stuff from Highsec, guess what your still going to do all your stuff in null sec and ship it out because WHY even do it if its easier to just ship it out?



THAT'S why im an avid fan of changing the way you MOVE ITEMS IN SPACE, no matter how good you make null sec industry unless you make to SO competently safe it might as well be highsec, you would choose the easier route, witch is the safety of A well run alliance logistics effort.





Doing null industry should have the same risk, as shipping it out there dose.

Right now? little to no risk in shipping items, there for no null industry.
Stonecrusher Mortlock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#627 - 2013-06-03 14:54:35 UTC
Alphea Abbra wrote:
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
Because if i could war dec the haulers, my problems would all ready be solved, and i could send all day flying around high sec shooting JF's.

now, if you let me wardec NPC corps, i will go have a mod delete this thread.

SO, as a CSM member do something about Null blocks and just about every other scrub in the game useing NPC corp to hide there hauling/mining/indy/reserch/ what have you alts.

FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT.

that would be a boon for all you null sec guys as well, MORE HIGH SEC TEARS.

DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT.
The reason you can't wardec is because you're in a NPC corp yourself.

NPC corps most likely can't dock in any give null-station.
Maybe in provi-bloc (NRDS space), I'm not sure, but they can't in S2N stations, I can assure you that.




So, what your saying in that all your JF's are IN alliance? so if i wardec you there not doing to drop out set there neutral alts to +10 and set minimum docking right's to +10 and avoid the high sec war?

They would be complete morons not to.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#628 - 2013-06-03 14:56:58 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
[
The only way to get that is for some nerfing of high sec industry, because no matter what, null sec just can't ever be equal as long as so much if FREE in high sec.


"some nerfing" won't do anything for you, when people start mining in the more profitable belts in low or null then I might buy your argument, fact is, they don't and they won't unless you completely destroy highsec mining at which point people still won't mine there because industry for the sane belongs in safe areas, not warzones.

You also don't want "equality", since you have it now with everyone able to produce in highsec equally, what you want is to consolidate your power and hope the highsec players will move to nullsec. Guess what, they wont.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#629 - 2013-06-03 15:02:29 UTC
Tippia wrote:


Murk Paradox wrote:
I'm all for buffing nullsec, we need it badly, but I do not think that what you are proposing is to buff null to compete with highsec, but you want highsec to be nerfed to nullsec's level.
No. What we want is highsec to be nerfed so that there is a margin of efficiency within which low and null industry can be better. Until such a margin exists, no reasonable buffs to null will have any effect since it will always be worse doing your industry there.



While you can still JF/move products to highsec to tap into their marketm that will never happen.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Dirael Papier
Malevelon Roe Industries
Convocation of Empyreans
#630 - 2013-06-03 15:04:46 UTC
Got through like, half the thread before I gave up. Seems like it was the same arguments cycling. Also I have no real experience with null industry or logistics since I've been a highsec carebear most of my EVE life so feel free to tell me if this sounds stupid.

So, all that said, the idea of POSs being a bigger part of nullsec industry sounds interesting to me. Easier for an alliance to scale up to fit their needs (more/fewer POSs) and more crap to shoot at for invading alliances that want to hurt their rival's industrial capacity.

Since an obvious counter to this (besides the cost of running a POS) is that they would just be used in HS anyways, I'm wondering if there would be any way to make POS mods/ system upgrades that significantly increase the manufacturing capability of a POS and are only useable in sov nullsec? Would the fuel cost still be too high do you think?
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#631 - 2013-06-03 15:05:24 UTC
Sir Marksalot wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Moreover, if POSes were an option, the use would simply move from highsec NPC stations to highsec POSes.


You need to move the emphasis from "were" to the word that you skipped out between "an" and "option". By naming the beast you have power over it. Don't let it skulk around unnamed and unspoken.

So why don't outposts work for industry in nullsec?


Inefficient refineries and a lack of slots.


That's my point. Nerfing highsec doesn't change that. Changing highsec does nothing in regards to nullsec frieghting their goods to highsec market. Whether they take it to highsec to refine or not still means it's leaving null period.

I think that's the elephant in the room everyone is trying to skirt around.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Stonecrusher Mortlock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#632 - 2013-06-03 15:06:29 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
I

We're not saying "Hi-sec industry is eeeeeevil and must be punished. 0.0 industry is God's Will!" We're saying that it's far too difficult and unprofitable to conduct industry in sov 0.0 compared to how easy and cheap it is in hi-sec. Instead of hisec industry being the easiest and the most profitable, it should be easier but less profitable.



That's nice but the only way you'll get industry in nullsec is by completely destroying it in highsec. There are many things more profitable in lowsec and nullsec yet people remain in highsec because unless you're the top dog with firewalls all over the place keeping you safe, then people simply won't take the risk even if it's more profitable.

So when you say you want better industry for nullsec, be honest and say you want more profits for the most powerful that already have more isk and assets then they know what to do with.


How do you get from "people won't take risks" to "null sec just wants more money".

That's the "everyone in null is rich" lie and it doesn't make much sense. I just looked at my assets and "personal tech moon" wasn't there.

We've told you what we want: for null players to be able to play in NULL rather than be effectively shacked to high sec industry/isk making alts. No one is advocating a reverse to the dependency (ie high sec become the slave of null the way null is now), we want equality of opportunity.

The only way to get that is for some nerfing of high sec industry, because no matter what, null sec just can't ever be equal as long as so much if FREE in high sec.



yep so long as its so EASY to move everything you make in high sec to null, O SO EASY, buy it at jita jump to low sec dock undock jump home.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#633 - 2013-06-03 15:06:42 UTC
Sentamon wrote:


You also don't want "equality", since you have it now with everyone able to produce in highsec equally, what you want is to consolidate your power and hope the highsec players will move to nullsec. Guess what, they wont.


So you're saying you can't understand the incredible insanity of what you are saying? It's like saying High Sec doesn't need Concord because"you don't have to undock" lol.

Weak mind people cling to the alterior motive idea, in this case, the "you just want me to move" BS. I guess you have to fall back on something when you're wrong (I wouldn't know lol).

No one wants to force anyone to move anywhere (I don't want to shoot anyone unless they dress up like Sanshas and put isk in my wallet every time i kill them). I simply wish I didn't HAVE to play in high sec at times. Sure I have a "choice" that choice is high sec and more isk+ no risk or null sec and less isk+ more risk. (I'm not talking industry personally, just in general).

But I make more isk using 1 macharial in an incursion fleet where the FC is doing all the driving and others in fleet are doing all the work (many times 160 to 180 mil an hour in a shiney fleet) than I do using that same Mach in null sec (110 to 130 mil an hour) in forsaken hubs that are about to get nerfed......

But atleast with PVE null sec is CLOSE to high sec., Industry in null can't hold a candle to industry in high sec despite 10 years of player investment. That needs to change.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#634 - 2013-06-03 15:07:41 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
But clearly it's not the JF's fault it can make those trips so easily. Surely not.
Not really, no. JFs are a solution, not a problem.


Quote:
So why don't outposts work for industry in nullsec?
Availability, logistics, efficiency, cost, safety, protection, labour. In every category, NPC stations (especially in highsec) offer more for free. That's why the fix has two parts to it: one is to remove the free ride hghsec offers; the other is to offer a comparable ride in low/null at a discount compared to those new, higher costs of high.



I quoted the pertinent bits.

You seem to be contradicting yourself.

JFs are the solution to highsec being so readily available? That just makes no sense. We all know and have established that convoys are not going to happen. Take away the ease of which to use highsec, and you have made the change you insist needs to be made.

If highsec wasn't so readily available, it wouldn't be used anywhere nearly as much. Stem the flow.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#635 - 2013-06-03 15:08:50 UTC
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:



yep so long as its so EASY to move everything you make in high sec to null, O SO EASY, buy it at jita jump to low sec dock undock jump home.


Would you like to loan us the 40 trillion isk we'd need to be able to make Some stuff in null. You'd also need to help us defend it.....or I could just go to high sec and get it for free while concord defends me.

You keep looking at the symptom, not the cause. The cause is high sec.
Stonecrusher Mortlock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#636 - 2013-06-03 15:09:35 UTC
Dirael Papier wrote:
Got through like, half the thread before I gave up. Seems like it was the same arguments cycling. Also I have no real experience with null industry or logistics since I've been a highsec carebear most of my EVE life so feel free to tell me if this sounds stupid.

So, all that said, the idea of POSs being a bigger part of nullsec industry sounds interesting to me. Easier for an alliance to scale up to fit their needs (more/fewer POSs) and more crap to shoot at for invading alliances that want to hurt their rival's industrial capacity.

Since an obvious counter to this (besides the cost of running a POS) is that they would just be used in HS anyways, I'm wondering if there would be any way to make POS mods/ system upgrades that significantly increase the manufacturing capability of a POS and are only useable in sov nullsec? Would the fuel cost still be too high do you think?




But would that really make them do industry in null?

Or would they still chose to ferry goods from high sec to null and raw items to high sec so long as it was easier and safer to do so?
Dirael Papier
Malevelon Roe Industries
Convocation of Empyreans
#637 - 2013-06-03 15:12:30 UTC
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
But would that really make them do industry in null?

Or would they still chose to ferry goods from high sec to null and raw items to high sec so long as it was easier and safer to do so?

Dunno if they would do it, but I'm wondering if this could at least make it more viable?
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#638 - 2013-06-03 15:13:23 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
So, with the problems you outlined here... what IF a jump freighter was removed from the game? If you did not have the ability to move product so easily from highsec to null and back? Do you think logistics would still carry on, or do you think you would hear a larger roar for fixing manufacturing pos's?


Most people would pack up and move to where most resources are easy to obtain.

I don't think the objective of this game is to be the group who can have the biggest HED/EC-/N-RAEL camp.



Not really designed to NOT shoot structures either but we see where that's going don't we? But I guess that's why we all have our own objectives.

Packing up and moving on is still a viable option. That comes back to choice as to what you want to do, and how to accomplish that. Again, self empowering decisions!

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#639 - 2013-06-03 15:13:26 UTC
I aint reading this whole thread, but I think the NPC corp and ability to instantly drop out of corp during war are two big issues preventing interfering with supply lines

shame they'll never be fixed
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#640 - 2013-06-03 15:13:45 UTC
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
Dirael Papier wrote:
Got through like, half the thread before I gave up. Seems like it was the same arguments cycling. Also I have no real experience with null industry or logistics since I've been a highsec carebear most of my EVE life so feel free to tell me if this sounds stupid.

So, all that said, the idea of POSs being a bigger part of nullsec industry sounds interesting to me. Easier for an alliance to scale up to fit their needs (more/fewer POSs) and more crap to shoot at for invading alliances that want to hurt their rival's industrial capacity.

Since an obvious counter to this (besides the cost of running a POS) is that they would just be used in HS anyways, I'm wondering if there would be any way to make POS mods/ system upgrades that significantly increase the manufacturing capability of a POS and are only useable in sov nullsec? Would the fuel cost still be too high do you think?




But would that really make them do industry in null?

Or would they still chose to ferry goods from high sec to null and raw items to high sec so long as it was easier and safer to do so?


You answered your own question lol.

I don't see why you are on this crusade for something that won't happen. It's been explained to you why it won't work, yet you persist without thinking. You are not convincing anyone of anything and your rambling is just hurting your own cause.

Again, the main problems need fixing, THEN people can talk about vulnerability of trade routes (not supply lines).