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Intergalactic Summit

 
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So I had to kill some guys, and now I feel weird about it.

Author
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#101 - 2013-06-01 21:30:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher7
Halete wrote:

No, I'm taunting you for polishing your gemstone with a filthy rag, whilst your foes run it through a woodchipper.


Jamyl Sarum is a foe.

Amarr ideology is a foe.

You're nobody's foe, you're a follower.

Ironically it wasn't the woodchipper that brought you around to their servitude, it was their writing, they conquered you with speeches and words. The same battle of speeches and words that your kind are constantly losing and wish to be abandoned.

ie if you can't win on one battlefield, sue for another.

The pen is mightier than the sword.

If you ever doubt the effectiveness of Psy Ops, note how well it worked on you.
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#102 - 2013-06-01 21:46:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher7
Desiderya wrote:
You're considering the Amarr Empire - at this very moment - an existential threat to the State and the caldari people.


Nobody ever said "We're only going to reclaim Minmatar."
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#103 - 2013-06-02 09:44:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Stitcher wrote:
As for Amarrian dogma versus Gallentean ethics, I can only comment that if you truly think the Gallente are in favour of anarchy, rejection of lawful authority and anti-social violence then you really haven't been paying attention to the political trajectory of their recent history. Do the FIO, the Black Eagles and the arrest of the Hanvyners not sound familiar?

I first took a serious interest in what the Gallente have to say some years ago now, initially in a "know thine enemy" sort of way. I am honestly of the opinion that the downsides to Democracy outweigh its benefits, and they have a history of absorbing smaller cultures through diplomacy and the velvet glove. There are a lot of good reasons to dislike the Federation, and in fact plenty of good reasons to like them too.

Does your vision of the Federation really consist solely of that image of the graffiti-scrawling, hedonistic, selfish, short-sighted scumbag who gets high on something unhealthy and sings bad songs about anarchy and breaking stuff? Sure, those people exist, but they're one tiny minority subculture in a sprawling jambalaya of humanity. They exist in the State too. The difference is that we call them "enemies of the State" and "Guri", whereas the Gallente just call them "idiots."

They're our enemies. Fine. I actually have no problem with that. But I won't indulge in this childish diminution of our enemies into a shallow parody.


I believe I shall leave the childish diminution of perceived enemies into a shallow parody in your more than capable hands.

You apparently seem rather fond of presenting your interpretation of what was said as being what was actually said. Where in fact did I ever make mention of, 'Graffiti-scrawling, hedonistic, selfish, short-sighted scumbag who gets high on something unhealthy and sings bad songs about anarchy and breaking stuff'? I did not, and I feel no need to defend sentiments I did not make.

What I did outline was that Liberalism as an political ideology espousing the primacy of individual liberty either finds itself in the extremism of Anarchism and the flawed pursuit of maximum liberty with the absence of State authority or in a more moderate form as Democracy.

Liberalism then becomes inimical to the Caldari way of life for if it promotes anarchism, then such anarchists will be opposed to necessary and legitimate authority of the State and its corporations in the belief that the inherent and legitimate right of State and Corporation to force and violence as oppressive. Ignoring the fact that it is solely the State and Corporation, whom with sole legal and political access to force and violence that assure and guarantee the freedom of the citizenry against external threats and which provide the social framework of law and order for those same citizens to pursue prosperity with fairness, equality and justice.

Indeed, one needs only look towards the Gurista Cartel for one example of how rapidly liberal ideologues can descend to rebellion against lawful authority in the State and the criminality and anti-social violence it breeds -- a reason enough for pro-active measures to be taken against undesirable, subversive, liberal elements in the State either through corporate re-education to instill once more the values expected of a citizen or simply prompt liquidation before they are able to do significant harm to themselves and others.

The issue with liberal-democracy however is that it is a political system that by its very nature impedes upon the will and expression of the Caldari Volk. It is a system that premises itself upon the freedom of discussion and debate, but paradoxically as can historically be seen with Caldari colonies upon the formation of the Federation, political parties and their elected representatives will always seek to pursue their own special interests, make decisions behind closed doors, pander to selected economic interests that advantage them and generally seek to pursue their ambitions of retaining power even when they act in a manner that does not represent the desires and wishes of their constituents. As such, democracy is nothing more than a lie that the Caldari have always and must always resist if we wish to preserve our society and culture.

That should provide a short summary on my own thoughts on liberalism, and since you raised the point I do not personally have any reservations with the Black Eagles insofar as they operate domestically in the Federation. If Mentas Blaque was not responsible for continued espionage and attacks against the State, I might even consider him a friend, for at least he, unlike so many Gallenteans recognizes the manifold threats that liberalism can present to society.

To end on an unrelated note to liberalism however, to me the most effective solution to negate the "existential threats" the Federation or Empire may pose to State survival would be to invade and partition the Minmatar Republic under a strengthened State-Imperial Pact. Certainly the acquisition of a wide expanse of former Matari living space in addition to the material resources and labour forces it brings would permit an expansion of the State Navy and Army while releasing billions of Caldari citizens to maintain a permanent state of armed readiness in the event of an attack - however unlikely that may be at least on the part of the Amarr Empire.

Given such, I fail to recognize any requirements of appeasement to the Minmatar when there is such a simpler and more effective solution to the problem of ensuring the strength of the Caldari State into the future.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#104 - 2013-06-02 09:52:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Quote:
to me the most effective solution to negate the "existential threats" the Federation or Empire may pose to State survival would be to invade and partition the Minmatar Republic under a strengthened State-Imperial Pact.


You would have to go through me first.

I'm done conversing with you. I may be in disagreement with Desiderya and Halete, but to their credit they are not hypocritically espousing the annexation of a foreign power.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#105 - 2013-06-02 10:32:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Stitcher wrote:
You would have to go through me first.

I'm done conversing with you. I may be in disagreement with Desiderya and Halete, but to their credit they are not hypocritically espousing the annexation of a foreign power.


Yes, I tremble in my boots before a man whose sum total of strategic and tactical nous is, as has been admitted, dissertations on the IGS.

I have also not contradicted myself in any manner for I have not expressed disagreement with the annexation of territories - so long as it is not Caldari territory.

I'm disappointed such a loquacious and garrulous man as you profess to be could not conceive a better parting shot.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#106 - 2013-06-02 12:18:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher7
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:

What I did outline was that Liberalism as an political ideology espousing the primacy of individual liberty either finds itself in the extremism of Anarchism and the flawed pursuit of maximum liberty with the absence of State authority or in a more moderate form as Democracy.


Democracy swaps the people from protectee to protectors of the state, because the people believe they /are/ the state, while the intellectual classes use media to manufacture their opinions and thus steer the herd.

It is not the opposite of statism, but a more advanced form of it, it's forms of control are MUCH stronger and MUCH harder to break than merely using force to shut dissenters up, because those dissenters become the federation's biggest supporters, all their passion and energy instead of getting directed at the federation, are directed at its enemies, and all the internal security you would otherwise need can be diverted to better use.

So no, the Federation isn't the polar opposite of the Caldari State, but a better version of it.

Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:

to me the most effective solution to negate the "existential threats" the Federation or Empire may pose to State survival would be to invade and partition the Minmatar Republic under a strengthened State-Imperial Pact.


Yeah because capturing Caldari Prime worked out so well.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#107 - 2013-06-02 13:26:28 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
I wonder, does Hakatain-haan believe in the Maker ?


I'll elaborate on my previous terse response, which was kept short to address the other points. I am not a Wayist. I follow the "New Way" invented by Vakarin Uskyoun. Uskyoun's philosophy translates the Spirits, the Maker and all the rest into philosophical, rather than literal entities.

The Maker therefore goes from being the literal being that made the universe in chaos and left the chaos to test whatever life that arose - including humanity - to being an intellectual conceptualisation of chaos, strife, struggle and growth.

Cold Wind is similarly retained, as the name for a set of values - calm evaluation, seeing the bigger picture, learning and the intellect. All of the spirits exist as name tags on mental states, lines of thought, avenues of introspection. The idea being to meditate on the values those spirits have historically espoused in Wayism without the need to believe in them as literal beings, which I find I cannot.

So: While I do not believe in the Maker as a literal, sapient entity, force or agent, I nevertheless meditate on the Maker and the philosophy he represents within Wayism. More often I meditate on Cold Wind, and you will see me invoke that name in discussion here on the IGS, even though I do not actually believe in the existence of a literal sapient being by that name.

All the rituals of Wayism are also retained, as ritual is an important part of the human psyche. This includes the Tea Maker, though an Uskyountist views it less as a test in which the drinker may be spared by the Maker, to instead being a death and rebirth, a new beginning and an opportunity to grow, having faced and overcome the ultimate challenge, or else having sacrificed yourself to your principles.


With that in mind, why wouldn't it not be the same for the Amarrian creed and spiritual tenets ?

Also, with that in mind and your atheist views - that are not so foreign to my own rationale on the matter of divine anthropomorphic entities - I believe that you hold similar distaste for the Maker as an irrational concept ?
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#108 - 2013-06-02 13:57:31 UTC
It's not the irrationality that I find distasteful, it's the subservient mindset.

Working for and believing in a cause larger than yourself is one thing. Humbling and demeaning yourself by grovelling in the dirt and proclaiming your lack of worthiness relative to divine glory and all that is quite another. That kind of human abasement saddens me.

Wayism and The Maker demand no such kowtowing. The philosophy is more akin to an obstacle course than that of a desperate child seeking to earn the love of a tyrannical parent. The former is healthy, constructive, an opportunity for growth. The latter is a demeaning, dehumanising, insanity-inducing grind.

I despise any philosophy which diminishes people, because I believe in humanity. Look how far we've come, and there's plenty more ahead. We've gone from being illiterate primates scratching a short and brutal existence from cold dirt and now we're roaming the stars and redefining our limits with every passing decade.

We did that. Us. Whatever motivated us, whatever inspiration drove us in this direction, we're the ones who took the steps, did the work, shed the blood. I believe in Meritocracy, in the principle that a person should be rewarded for their contribution.

I dislike Amarr precisely because it robs us of that. Amarr has it that our sole worth is to kiss the backside of our creator and to devote our every accomplishment to his worship. It's a philosophy that we are all slaves, and I despise slavery. There's nothing noble in that philosophy.

The Maker on the other hand, according to the mythology, just set the world in motion and sat back to watch what we would become. He doesn't demand a tithe of our accomplishments, he doesn't ransom us for our adulation. He doesn't require our derogation.

I believe in neither entity. But if I did, I would prefer the Maker. I'll take passive observation by an aloof spectator over belittlement by a megalomaniacal dictator any day.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Darvaleth Sigma
Imperial Security Hegemony
#109 - 2013-06-02 14:02:49 UTC
Does the victim of a shooting blame the gun? Should the slave's friends' lasers have taken the punishment? Did the missile choose to impact on your hull?

I am a capsuleer, trained to pilot the most deadly machines known to man, and to obliterate my foes. I made the ultimate sacrifice to become an immortal warrior, bestriding the galaxy without fear, guilt, or mercy. I am an instrument of the Caldari State, to be wielded as the State sees fit, a bullet to be fired in the name of Caldari supremacy.

Does the bullet question the gun from which it is fired? Does the trigger question the hand that pulls it? I am a living, breathing weapon. I obey without question, and, in turn, my mind is absolved of all responsibility.

Give a man a match and you warm him for a day.

Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life!

Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#110 - 2013-06-03 09:53:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Stitcher wrote:
It's not the irrationality that I find distasteful, it's the subservient mindset.

Working for and believing in a cause larger than yourself is one thing. Humbling and demeaning yourself by grovelling in the dirt and proclaiming your lack of worthiness relative to divine glory and all that is quite another. That kind of human abasement saddens me.

Wayism and The Maker demand no such kowtowing. The philosophy is more akin to an obstacle course than that of a desperate child seeking to earn the love of a tyrannical parent. The former is healthy, constructive, an opportunity for growth. The latter is a demeaning, dehumanising, insanity-inducing grind.

I despise any philosophy which diminishes people, because I believe in humanity. Look how far we've come, and there's plenty more ahead. We've gone from being illiterate primates scratching a short and brutal existence from cold dirt and now we're roaming the stars and redefining our limits with every passing decade.

We did that. Us. Whatever motivated us, whatever inspiration drove us in this direction, we're the ones who took the steps, did the work, shed the blood. I believe in Meritocracy, in the principle that a person should be rewarded for their contribution.

I dislike Amarr precisely because it robs us of that. Amarr has it that our sole worth is to kiss the backside of our creator and to devote our every accomplishment to his worship. It's a philosophy that we are all slaves, and I despise slavery. There's nothing noble in that philosophy.


There is nothing noble in egotism. For us to grow, it is required that we face challenges and overcome them. In pride, we believe ourselves already strong and so we grow complacent in our seats. In humility, we believe ourselves weak and so we strive to become better than we are.

For humanity to improve, we must first recognize that we are in need of improving.
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#111 - 2013-06-03 10:00:56 UTC
Cipher7 wrote:

Jamyl Sarum is a foe.

...

If you ever doubt the effectiveness of Psy Ops, note how well it worked on you.


Darling please, this entire post, I can't; if you spent maybe thirty minutes out of the Mindflood, perhaps you'd be able to construct an even half-way insightful reply.

If you wish to address me with such statements, then I have a more suitable thread than this one open for such discourse.

Secondly, do know that you are wrong and this most detrite tirade of spew and drivel is worth less than the bytes of data that manifest it.

I was conquered by the Amarr and I did not make my decision.

I was consoled by the peaceful missionaries of the Amarr and I did not make my decision.

I witnessed the baleful, viperous hordes of the Minmatar and only then after years of careful contemplation was I ready to make my decision.


"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21

Kim Ji-Young
Ji Young Kim Bap
#112 - 2013-06-03 11:27:53 UTC
If you wear one of those fancy military shirts many of you are wearing with a kitten on your lap, the kitten will attack the buttons.

Just to bring things back on topic.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#113 - 2013-06-03 11:29:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Samira Kernher wrote:
There is nothing noble in egotism. For us to grow, it is required that we face challenges and overcome them. In pride, we believe ourselves already strong and so we grow complacent in our seats. In humility, we believe ourselves weak and so we strive to become better than we are.

For humanity to improve, we must first recognize that we are in need of improving.


I am not promoting hubris. Humility and cognizance of our own limitation is one thing - and I agree, entirely positive - but grinding subservient abasement is quite another. "We are not worthy" is an unhealthy attitude, and robs us of the dignity we have earned.

Excessive pride and humiliating self-diminishment are extremes, and I'm interested in the healthy middle ground where we view obstacles with the optimistic confidence to tackle them because we think they can be overcome, but with the practical humility to recognize that we won't succeed without hard work and growth.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Natalcya Katla
Astropolitan Front
#114 - 2013-06-03 12:24:27 UTC
Darvaleth Sigma wrote:
Does the victim of a shooting blame the gun? Should the slave's friends' lasers have taken the punishment? Did the missile choose to impact on your hull?

I am a capsuleer, trained to pilot the most deadly machines known to man, and to obliterate my foes. I made the ultimate sacrifice to become an immortal warrior, bestriding the galaxy without fear, guilt, or mercy. I am an instrument of the Caldari State, to be wielded as the State sees fit, a bullet to be fired in the name of Caldari supremacy.

Does the bullet question the gun from which it is fired? Does the trigger question the hand that pulls it? I am a living, breathing weapon. I obey without question, and, in turn, my mind is absolved of all responsibility.

Do the bullet, trigger and gun feel the need to justify their existence by waxing poetic on the IGS?

Get over yourself, Captain. If a tool is all you are, leave the speeches to your wielders, too.
Cipher Deninard
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2013-06-03 12:36:33 UTC
People die, it happens. If you hadn't been the one to pull the trigger on those idiots somebody else would have.
Darvaleth Sigma
Imperial Security Hegemony
#116 - 2013-06-03 18:10:44 UTC
Natalcya Katla wrote:
Darvaleth Sigma wrote:
Does the victim of a shooting blame the gun? Should the slave's friends' lasers have taken the punishment? Did the missile choose to impact on your hull?

I am a capsuleer, trained to pilot the most deadly machines known to man, and to obliterate my foes. I made the ultimate sacrifice to become an immortal warrior, bestriding the galaxy without fear, guilt, or mercy. I am an instrument of the Caldari State, to be wielded as the State sees fit, a bullet to be fired in the name of Caldari supremacy.

Does the bullet question the gun from which it is fired? Does the trigger question the hand that pulls it? I am a living, breathing weapon. I obey without question, and, in turn, my mind is absolved of all responsibility.

Do the bullet, trigger and gun feel the need to justify their existence by waxing poetic on the IGS?

Get over yourself, Captain. If a tool is all you are, leave the speeches to your wielders, too.


Just because I am weapon, does not and should not mean I am a crude, blunt instrument. I am not a Minmatar pilot after all; I take whatever form the State asks of me, but always remaining targeted, sophisticated, and suited for purpose. If my literary weaponry is too much for you, perhaps I could have it translated?

Give a man a match and you warm him for a day.

Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life!

Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#117 - 2013-06-03 18:50:27 UTC
Stitcher wrote:

I'm done conversing with you. I may be in disagreement with Desiderya and Halete, but to their credit they are not hypocritically espousing the annexation of a foreign power.


Well, the relation-strengthening effects of joint military campaigns are hard to deny.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

Natalcya Katla
Astropolitan Front
#118 - 2013-06-03 19:46:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Natalcya Katla
Darvaleth Sigma wrote:
Just because I am weapon, does not and should not mean I am a crude, blunt instrument. I am not a Minmatar pilot after all; I take whatever form the State asks of me, but always remaining targeted, sophisticated, and suited for purpose. If my literary weaponry is too much for you, perhaps I could have it translated?

The comparison to crude, blunt instruments was all yours, I assure you..I made no comparison you did not first make yourself.

For the record, I don't consider you a weapon at all. i consider you a person, an infomorph bound by CONCORD law, lenient though it is, and I consider you to be one hundred percent responsible for every word you utter and every action you make. I also consider that whole little speech of yours to reflect a troubling but not at all surprising trait of staggering immaturity which is sadly all too common among capsuleers.

You are not a weapon, but a person who should never have been allowed to possess one.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#119 - 2013-06-03 20:55:51 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
I am not promoting hubris.


Don't say things like that when I'm trying to drink something, dammit. Now I've got Quafe in my nose.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#120 - 2013-06-03 21:20:19 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
It's not the irrationality that I find distasteful, it's the subservient mindset.

Working for and believing in a cause larger than yourself is one thing. Humbling and demeaning yourself by grovelling in the dirt and proclaiming your lack of worthiness relative to divine glory and all that is quite another. That kind of human abasement saddens me.


The Amarr do not have a monopoly on such things. Humans - as trite as it may sound - do.

Stitcher wrote:
Wayism and The Maker demand no such kowtowing.
[...]
The philosophy is more akin to an obstacle course than that of a desperate child seeking to earn the love of a tyrannical parent.


Neither do the Scriptures.

Stitcher wrote:
I believe in Meritocracy, in the principle that a person should be rewarded for their contribution.


Who sets the norm and its resulting merit ? The Caldari ? The Amarr ? The Maker/God ? You ?

Stitcher wrote:
I dislike Amarr precisely because it robs us of that. Amarr has it that our sole worth is to kiss the backside of our creator and to devote our every accomplishment to his worship. It's a philosophy that we are all slaves, and I despise slavery. There's nothing noble in that philosophy.

The Maker on the other hand, according to the mythology, just set the world in motion and sat back to watch what we would become. He doesn't demand a tithe of our accomplishments, he doesn't ransom us for our adulation. He doesn't require our derogation.

I believe in neither entity. But if I did, I would prefer the Maker. I'll take passive observation by an aloof spectator over belittlement by a megalomaniacal dictator any day.


I am not sure who instructed you on Amarrian Theology, but it sounds like ignorant, insecure or power mongering charlatans drivels.