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Broteau to be extradited

Author
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#21 - 2013-06-02 01:07:12 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
The whole sordid affair could have been avoided had both sides simply communicated. Had the Federal authorities allowed a joint investigation or, simply kept the Republic informed as to their progress (explaining why they couldn't release any details) and that the criminal would be extradited after his trial in Caille, I seriously doubt things would have gotten so far out of hand. A more measured and diplomatic request and offer of compromise would have been wise on the part of the Republic. There's plenty of blame to be passed out all around.

But, as someone else observed, that's all water under the bridge now. Time now for the longtime allies to sit down and discuss ways to improve relations going forward and work out agreements on how future situations, should they arise, are handled.


The Republic handed the Federation the right to shirk off any blame for the latter's arrogance when the former behaved violently and killed several thousand allied crewpeople. Inflicting death against your own ally so openly kicks you off the high ground.

Not saying the Federation won't look at its own behaviour for what occured, just that it no longer has to because of the Colelie incident. Inversely, the Republic's violent behaviour warrants an expectation for them to evaluate their actions. Not that they will necessarily, but they should.
Philadunc Arsten
Jade Wolf Pack
#22 - 2013-06-02 01:16:37 UTC
Ollie Rundle wrote:
Anabella Rella wrote:
But, as someone else observed, that's all water under the bridge now. Time now for the longtime allies to sit down and discuss ways to improve relations going forward and work out agreements on how future situations, should they arise, are handled.


Except that, for the several million individuals who comprise the families and loved ones of those killed by Republic fleet actions in Colelie and those destroyed by Elder Fleet actions in Yulai five years ago, that water you're alluding to has a decidedly crimson hue.

And few people enjoy crossing a river of blood to interact with those who label themselves 'friends', bridge or no.


And what about Malkalen? Or the action taken to capture Eturrer. Granted there's no evidence that Matari was spilled there, but blood is blood, all the same. And the Federation has just as much on its hands as the Republic. If not more...

But that's for another time, maybe. Let's just say that both the Federation and the Republic got what they wanted out of this trial.
Utremi Fasolasi
La Dolce Vita
#23 - 2013-06-02 01:18:39 UTC
Speaking as a former employee of The Scope, this doesn't really make sense. Extradition legally speaking normally refers to when a crime is committed in one territory, then the perp flees to another territory and is caught and returned back to where the crime was done to be tried. Like with the Eturrer incident.

This is more like an extraordinary rendition. Which is legally questionable in my opinion. While it is tragic what was done, this is a violation of Broteau's rights as a Federation citizen and by extension a threat to everyone's rights.
Ariel Marquette
Doomheim
#24 - 2013-06-02 01:25:44 UTC
"We find you guilty and sentence you to be delivered to the victim's next of kin to do with you as they please."

Great precedent to set.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2013-06-02 01:51:31 UTC
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
Cipher7 wrote:

We should also do something nice for the Federation, to try to mend fences.


What? Like buy it a cake, as a way to say "Thanks for the extradition, sorry we invaded you."

There's really no way to make something positive out of this.


I feel that reparations to the families of the brave Gallenteans who gave their lives at Colelie would be a good token of apology if done correctly.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Nick Bete
Highsec Haulers Inc.
#26 - 2013-06-02 05:47:55 UTC
Sure Fred. As soon as we pay money to all the families of those killed when Noir plowed his Nyx into that station or to all those killed during the battles for Caldari Prime.

We have plenty of blood on our own hands so, let's not be so condescending and hypocritical. That attitude is what got us into this dispute with the Republic in the first place.

And to all of you who are so quick to want to break ties with the Minmatar consider this: How well do you think we would fare attempting to hold off the Amarr/Caldari alliance by ourselves if it came down to that? I'd much prefer to have those passionate Matari warriors fighting with me rather than against me if they were ultimately defeated by the Amarr and added to their ranks.
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#27 - 2013-06-02 06:11:02 UTC
I wouldnt be surprised if the Republic extradition fleet is attacked and Gerne Broteau escapes. He has had the publicity he was looking for from his crimes and trial. No reason not to try and escape now.

BloodBird
The Crucible.
#28 - 2013-06-02 08:59:40 UTC
Philadunc Arsten wrote:
And what about Malkalen?


Nick Bete wrote:
Sure Fred. As soon as we pay money to all the families of those killed when Noir plowed his Nyx into that station.


Ignorance on this level is not helping your arguments at all you know.

All the examples you have pulled out here are of widely different situations with completely different causes, effects and means. They are not related and do not serve as legitimate examples - the Federation has never done anything like what the Republic did at Colelie.

As for your closing argument, I would argue that remaining in a relationship where we will just excuse any abuse from our one and only friend on the grounds that they are our one and only friend is... well, absurd. Regardless of excuse the Republic had no right to their actions and were greatly shamed by them.

And by now they end up getting what they want in the end anyway. I can't decide if I find this a good or bad thing overall, likely means it's a great deal of both.

I can only hope the Sebeistor Tribe will be enjoying their time with this man.

If they don't all that was paid for this incident would have been completely wasted.

Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
Khimi Harar
#29 - 2013-06-02 09:05:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Merdaneth
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
Article here

A shaming of the Republic government if there ever was one. As I presumed, doesn't seem capital punishment is legal in Caille, but given the extraordinary nature of the crime, I'm sure those delivering justice wished it were. This is effectively a death sentence, in which case.


I must honestly say I am very pleased with this turn of events.

First, the Federation made sure the law was followed.

Second, they made a symbolic gesture of peaceful intentions and de-escalation of hostilities.

Third, they clearly it showed the Republic their place at the table. Wait until the master is finished before you are allowed to beg for scraps. Bare your teeth to your master, and we will send you back into your corner with your tail between your legs. If you are a good dog: then you get your share of the leftovers.

The lesson about men's position in this universe is something that most Matari find hard to learn. I can only hope they're not false and intend to bite when their master isn't looking.
BloodBird
The Crucible.
#30 - 2013-06-02 09:13:36 UTC
Merdaneth wrote:
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
Article here

A shaming of the Republic government if there ever was one. As I presumed, doesn't seem capital punishment is legal in Caille, but given the extraordinary nature of the crime, I'm sure those delivering justice wished it were. This is effectively a death sentence, in which case.


I must honestly say I am very pleased with this turn of events.

First, the Federation made sure the law was followed.

Second, they made a symbolic gesture of peaceful intentions and de-escalation of hostilities.

Third, they clearly it showed the Republic their place at the table. Wait until the master is finished before you are allowed to beg for scraps. Bare your teeth to your master, and we will send you back into your corner with your tail between your legs. If you are a good dog: then you get your share of the leftovers.

The lesson about men's position in this universe is something that most Matari find hard to learn. I can only hope they're not false and intend to bite when their master isn't looking.


You seem a little confused Merdaneth - we are not the Amarrian Empire here.

Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#31 - 2013-06-02 10:07:37 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
I'm glad to see that both parties are satisfied now. Though this does raise a question

Did we humiliate the Republic by showing them they would of got what they wanted without acting up? Or does it show that they got what they wanted because they acted up?



Actually, it humiliates the Federation since if the Federation had been smart enough to say from the beginning that they would extradite after trial (rather than absolutely refuse extradition and insult our courts/judicial system), they'd have prevented any risk of an event like Colelie ever happening. Not that I expect the Federation to recognize this.

It doesn't humiliate us because there was no "You might get him after we conduct our trial" or any such indication, but merely a flat refusal of any extradition accompanied by blatant insults towards the quality of our court system.



Andreus Ixiris wrote:
So as it turns out, the Federation extradited Broteau to the Minmatar Republic anyway, which means the Republic Fleet lost fifteen dreadnoughts and murdered thousands of Federation navymen for literally nothing.


So, as it turns out, the Federation insulted and provoked their ally for literally nothing.

Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
The Republic handed the Federation the right to shirk off any blame for the latter's arrogance when the former behaved violently and killed several thousand allied crewpeople. Inflicting death against your own ally so openly kicks you off the high ground.


No, actually, we didn't. As I have often told my daughter while she was growing up, "Two wrongs don't make a right." Whether the Republic's actions at Colelie were wrong or not, it in no way justifies the asinine behavior of the Federation prior to those events. The Federation deliberately chose to provoke the Republic. Should we avoid rising to the bait when this happens? Yes, we should. Doesn't mean it's okay for the Federation to deliberately provoke their ally.





As for people calling for reparations or apologies for Colelie, that is something that can't be determined until we finally hear the Tribal Council's reasons for that attack. I am not convinced that this was just an emotional outburst. It does not make sense that the Tribal Council would call for such an attack without damn good reason. I still maintain my position of considering Colelie to be unjustifiable with the current information, but I can't help but feel there's more information that we currently lack, but the Tribal Council has and had at the time the decision was made.
Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
Khimi Harar
#32 - 2013-06-02 10:11:05 UTC
BloodBird wrote:


You seem a little confused Merdaneth - we are not the Amarrian Empire here.



I am not. your observation is the reason I am pleased: the Federation is acting like the Amarr Empire would.

That is worthy of commendation.
Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
Khimi Harar
#33 - 2013-06-02 10:16:09 UTC
Katarina Musana wrote:

It doesn't humiliate us because there was no "You might get him after we conduct our trial" or any such indication, but merely a flat refusal of any extradition accompanied by blatant insults towards the quality of our court system.


You misunderstand. This is *especially* why the Republic was humiliated.

You see your dog is hungry, but you ignore him when he begs for the scraps left on your plate and you whip him when he growls, even though you fully intend him to have the scraps and finally feed them to him when he lies whimpering in the corner.
BloodBird
The Crucible.
#34 - 2013-06-02 10:20:29 UTC
Merdaneth wrote:
BloodBird wrote:


You seem a little confused Merdaneth - we are not the Amarrian Empire here.



I am not. your observation is the reason I am pleased: the Federation is acting like the Amarr Empire would.

That is worthy of commendation.


Well played.
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#35 - 2013-06-02 10:35:23 UTC
Raven Solaris wrote:
So, the Federation are going to extradite a man who opened fire on a Minmatar cultural festival to the Republic to submit to "Tribal Justice."

Meanwhile, there will be an exceptionally large gathering of Minmatar paying their respects to Karin Midular all month.

... I'd avoid visiting the Caravanserai in person should you happened to be so inclined.


Why?

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"

Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#36 - 2013-06-02 11:10:21 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
Raven Solaris wrote:
So, the Federation are going to extradite a man who opened fire on a Minmatar cultural festival to the Republic to submit to "Tribal Justice."

Meanwhile, there will be an exceptionally large gathering of Minmatar paying their respects to Karin Midular all month.

... I'd avoid visiting the Caravanserai in person should you happened to be so inclined.


Why?


Dense grouping of Minmatar people. Maybe someone will turn up shouting "Broteau was right!" and open fire on all those people.

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#37 - 2013-06-02 11:16:22 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
The whole sordid affair could have been avoided had both sides simply communicated. Had the Federal authorities allowed a joint investigation or, simply kept the Republic informed as to their progress (explaining why they couldn't release any details) and that the criminal would be extradited after his trial in Caille, I seriously doubt things would have gotten so far out of hand. A more measured and diplomatic request and offer of compromise would have been wise on the part of the Republic. There's plenty of blame to be passed out all around.


I thought Shakor and Roden were keeping in direct contact with each other over this whole affair, no ?

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2013-06-02 12:22:19 UTC
Valerie Valate wrote:
Anabella Rella wrote:
The whole sordid affair could have been avoided had both sides simply communicated. Had the Federal authorities allowed a joint investigation or, simply kept the Republic informed as to their progress (explaining why they couldn't release any details) and that the criminal would be extradited after his trial in Caille, I seriously doubt things would have gotten so far out of hand. A more measured and diplomatic request and offer of compromise would have been wise on the part of the Republic. There's plenty of blame to be passed out all around.


I thought Shakor and Roden were keeping in direct contact with each other over this whole affair, no ?


The contact was so good, Shakor sent a fleet.

ehehehe
Raven Solaris
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2013-06-02 13:17:43 UTC
Valerie Valate wrote:
Ava Starfire wrote:
Raven Solaris wrote:
So, the Federation are going to extradite a man who opened fire on a Minmatar cultural festival to the Republic to submit to "Tribal Justice."

Meanwhile, there will be an exceptionally large gathering of Minmatar paying their respects to Karin Midular all month.

... I'd avoid visiting the Caravanserai in person should you happened to be so inclined.


Why?


Dense grouping of Minmatar people. Maybe someone will turn up shouting "Broteau was right!" and open fire on all those people.


Thank you.

Given that we know that Broteau isn't alone in his beliefs, as evidenced by the forums that he frequented, making a martyr out of him is only going to end badly.

Of course I don't expect the Minmatar to even consider that for a second before they start hacking him to pieces or something equally gruesome.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#40 - 2013-06-02 13:36:58 UTC
Utremi Fasolasi wrote:
Speaking as a former employee of The Scope, this doesn't really make sense. Extradition legally speaking normally refers to when a crime is committed in one territory, then the perp flees to another territory and is caught and returned back to where the crime was done to be tried. Like with the Eturrer incident.

This is more like an extraordinary rendition. Which is legally questionable in my opinion. While it is tragic what was done, this is a violation of Broteau's rights as a Federation citizen and by extension a threat to everyone's rights.


That is right.