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You seem to have taken away this idea that I think that the best way to make mining fun is to make it more dangerous. This is not the case. For the umpteenth time, I think that how fun and interesting mining should be should be treated separately from how risky mining is in a given type of space.

I also haven't seen a reasonable argument for why grav sites should get to be oh so much safer than ratting sites. I don't buy your "well it makes mining more interesting" thing, especially since you can't explain how it makes it interesting for the miner, nor how it makes mining interesting in safe areas. Ratters realistically have only slightly better odds than miners if they stand and fight, and will die horribly in the vast majority of cases. "I like to be semi-afk" is not a compelling argument either at all, especially in light of what CCP just did to ice. And "You're not a miner, you wouldn't understand, just trust us" isn't going to fly with anyone.

Ultimately though, I'm going to say to you what I said to Bugsy. Let the markets prove who's right, or better yet, let a CCP devblog talking about numbers of miners before and after Odyssey prove it instead.



People started talking about nullsec mining on page one.

"CCP, you may as well relabel Odyssey as Nerfyssey or Dumbyssey, since that's all that seems to be contained within this fake expansion."

...Really? Is this what we've come to now?

I'm thinking that was your first mistake....

Deleted odd double post

Ok, listen.

First. Hulk cost ~200kk. He can get 30kk\hour w\o bonus and ~45-50 with bonus. You know how many isk\hour i can get with...talos? Or naga (same cost with fit). I tell you - ~100kk per hour.

Second. While i hunt NPC, ill make some action. Im not boring at all. Its not fun, yeah, but not SO boring as mining. Tell me, how long you can watch ur hulk mining? 30 min? 60? 120? For me its MAX 60 min constantly watching.

For now i can alt+tab and doing what i want - reading EvE lore, watching video. And check every 1-2 min my hulk and local. Becuase i know, that only very good scanner can catch me.

So we have 30-50kk per hour on hulk with less risk (gravi require scan skills) and 100kk with high risk.

So, finaly in Odyssey:

I STILL have 30-50kk per hour with GREATER risk than hunting. Why? Becuase i cant watch 24\7 how my hulk "funny" mining. Hulk need ~15 sec to warpout. So if i am at WC, im dead. If i want make some tea - im dead. I chose mining becuase its less isk\hour but more free time. And now?
CCP forcing us to watch most BORING thing in their game - mining :( And if before that change ppl wants nullsec for mining coz gravi (pretty good isk\hour and you dont need to watch this...shame...:) ) And we all know what that means... It will be MORE mining bots in nullsec :(

Miner havnt instrument vs ganks. Single inter jump in, warp at random ore site (2-3 in system) and catch you even before you notice him in local.
CCP: "we want ppl to make and build things in nullsec, this why we just kill all miners in nullsec.."

Its totaly unlogic

Anti-social Tendencies

Agree.

If hunter in anomaly has a chanse to defend himself from single ganker (they carry a big guns and NPC now switch targets), miner cant do anything. Very high cost of ship that dies in a few second vs something higher than destr.

"So mine with 3-4 windows!" - and if i wont? This is an option? CCP want us to buy multiply accs for mining? PFff, i will just use my other windows for hunting and will increase isk\hour.

Just tell me CCP, how i should mine in null sec with that change(without speaking already about WH)? My isk\hour will be unchange, risk will increase exponential (from 1-3 min for ganker could scan me to 10-20 sec that he just warp to ore site). And even 3-4 hulks can do anything vs...cynabal.

And now about an unpleasant subject - botting. ATM there a lot of miner bots. But still tere is a lot of miners who play fair and mine with their own. So with that change, where you have just few saecond to react after local increase with "=" or "-", CCP just force some people to use bots (not me ofc, i will just change my profession to hunting).
People use bots becuase: process boring, demands many man-hours and can be automated. And as mining core mechanics of EvE it is especially ridiculous.

Ritorisesky question:

When CCP finaly change mining? There is a lot of suggestion from players. If you increase risk of mining so increase isk\hour. And adding trit to high ores ISNT solution. If you want mining risky as hinting, so make miners isk\hour same as hunting. How? You can decrease m^3\cycle on stripers. So miner time will cost more. Ofc all thing will cost more, but after ~1 month after market stocks will come to an end, ore will cost more and miners will get more isk\hour. And this will be fair.

My point is: hunting have LESS risk than mining and thus has more isk\hour than mining. BALANCE

I'll just use this part of your post.

-The POS system (including modular POS and usability mechanics.)
If you've been paying attention, you'll know that CCP has said the POS code is tied in with all the other code in the game, in such a way that the POS code virtually is the game code, with its slithering tendrils reaching here and there and tying into myriad other systems. They want to rework POSes but it's an enormous, enormous job and doing it in a single expansion cycle would take basically their full dev power. It's already been considered that what they'll do is write a new POS code from scratch and then implement it alongside the existing, gradually removing old POS code until only the new is left.
The short version is "CCP wants to do the POS rework and knows we want it done but it's a gigantic job and will take time."

-Drone mechanics (these have been broken for many years.)
I believe drone mechanics are another one of those systems where the code is old and difficult to work with, but it's more a matter of nobody's figured out how the drone system should work.

-The fake 'bounty' system (everyone and their dog has a bounty, and it's now even more meaningless than it's ever was before the 'revamp'.)
The new bounty system is pretty good IMO, it just doesn't pay out enough to be worthwhile. Rather than 20% it should be 50%.

-Fully exportable UI settings (for multiple clients.)
Nothing to say about this.

-Corp management interface revamp (the current interface is beyond terrible.)
More ancient, cryptic, labyrinthine and serpentine code.

-Lowsec risk/reward rebalancing.
Even lowsec residents don't seem to agree on what lowsec should be for, outside of FW. Tags-4-Sec, although you seem to despise it, is part of an attempt to increase the reward factor of the zone.

-Incursion rebalancing.
I really must force myself to refrain from commenting on Incursions, lest I get started on a five-page litany.

You're going to quit EVE because you now have to compete for resources like everyone else?

In that case, the door is over there and I hope you find a single-player game that suits your tastes.

They have responded. But with equal ignorance to the warning they received before Incarna.

Fozzie seems to think miners who operated in null sec under the new system, while completely exposed in undefendable ships, mining in belts that any noob in a free noob ship can find in under 10 seconds will be resourceful and clever enough to find a way to continue mining under much harsher conditions. I don't know what he has been smoking, but most miners are miners because they do not want more engaging higher risk activity. Forcing them into this activity will not work any better than trying to force carebears out of high sec. You need to make them WANT to go, they can not be pushed.

If I knew this was coming 6 months ago, I would have gone to fanfest just to give Fozzie a smack upside the head.

Most miners are mining BECAUSE it is not a very engaging activity. They are looking for an activity that can be done with minimal effort while they are busy with something else. Most mining is done at least semi AFK. Many players who mine do so when they are not able to engage in more intensive activities, like myself, I mine while at work or watching my kids. I can not rat, run missions, or PVP at those times as my attention is divided. I may have to go AFK with zero notice if the phone rings or if my kids start fighting or crying. We all know hoe FC's react to that, especially if you are one of the logi's.

A more engaging activity would mean a much higher chance of death in these situations. I used to do semi AFK mission running, But often when I had to go AFK for several minutes with no time to warp out, I would come back to a POD floating in space. With the current system mining works well as a semi AFK activity. With these changes I will not be able to mine semi AFK, at least not in NULL or LOW sec. This will not make me stop being Semi AFK as that is all I can do during this play time. I will just stop mining and find another semi AFK activity.

At times when I can handle more engaging activities, when I am home and the kids have gone to bed, I am not mining. I am ratting, or in a combat fleet, making far more isk than mining, or getting in some PVP or ganking. These changes will not encourage me to find new ways to be a better miner, I will stop mining and find another low attention activity to do during those periods. Perhaps I will step up my PI operations.

Fozzie needs to get it through his thick head, that this is not a matter of miners not being clever enough to over come the higher risk, this is about miners only being miners because of the low risk, and low attention needed. With these changes you will no longer be able to mine semi AFK outside of high sec. Since the majority of miners are at best only able to be semi AFK at the times when they mine, this will not change. They will not adapt, they will go back to high sec, or stop mining completely.

Nobody mines for the isk, It is still the lowest ISK/hr income in the game. Players mine because of the low risk, relaxed atmosphere that goes along with mining. Making that activity more engaging and higher risk will not be offset by higher rewards, not that the ore composition changes will add enough rewards to even be noticeable beyond the first couple weeks.

The only way mining will survive with a risk and engagement level comparable to ratting is if the income also compared to ratting. The slight income buff coming in Odyssey will not be nearly enough. mineral prices will have to triple before things level out, and what will that do for the game economy? If will certainly go completely against the goal of making EVE more accessible to new players.

Oh so much safer? Really??
Almost all the ratting sites I have ever run I had to scan down, with probes. Why should mining sites be less safe than the ratting sites combat pilots run? Sure there are static Plexes and ratting anomalies that do not need to be scanned down, just as almost every system has static asteroid belts, But the really good sites, just like the good belts, have to be scanned down. Why change that? It is not broken, it does not need fixed.

I have not read anywhere that the combat sites are being moved to anomalies, or did I just miss that. How does leaving them the same make mining safer than ratting?

Or are you just so frustrated with this discussion that you are no longer being rational about it?

I have a lot of respect for you Mynnna, Despite my occasional disagreements, I did vote for you. In my top 5 actually.

You just seem to be fighting more to support making it easier for the gankers, which I guess are quite prominent in GSF, to find null sec miners. How is it you do not seem that miners will not sit in those belts waiting to be ganked after these changes make them sitting ducks. Null sec mining is barely profitable as it is, the risk of losing you ship is high. Removing the ONLY layer of protection those miners have will make it almost impossible to have a profitable small time mining operation.

Are you prepared to tell you PVPers and Gankers that there is a mandatory mining op on the weekend due to a shortage of high end minerals needed to build supers. If null sec mining becomes to high risk to be profitable it may very likely come to that.

If I am wrong on this, fine, educate me. But in thousands of posts across dozens of threads I have read nothing that even remotely shows a good side to this change. Null sec mining doesn't need nerfed. And the slight buff it will get from the other changes was not near enough to warrant a nerf.


Fozzie says he significantly increased the rewards for miners. I just don't see it. Yes the ore composition changes will really help null sec industry as a whole, but will do almost nothing for the miners. The market prices of the minerals will balance out to leave miners in about the same place isk/hr wise as they are now. This nerf will hit null sec industry far far harder than this slight buff.