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Ice- ageddon "The oil of Eve" War Creator

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Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#41 - 2013-06-01 10:33:41 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
unlike you who simply failed to understand the point being discussed. vOv.

i wasn't questioning the definition, i was questioning you shoehorning it in to a context where it simply isn't true and doesn't make sense.

ok how is ORGANIZING a fleet, collaborating to discourage competitors and sharing respawn timers not steamlining? where is the shoehorning?


because organising a fleet does none of that. hence why you're shoehorning it. it simply doesn't apply.

so you deny the first part of my sentence and ignore the second part. brilliant argument. good night.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Dave Stark
#42 - 2013-06-01 10:35:04 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
unlike you who simply failed to understand the point being discussed. vOv.

i wasn't questioning the definition, i was questioning you shoehorning it in to a context where it simply isn't true and doesn't make sense.

ok how is ORGANIZING a fleet, collaborating to discourage competitors and sharing respawn timers not steamlining? where is the shoehorning?


because organising a fleet does none of that. hence why you're shoehorning it. it simply doesn't apply.

so you deny the first part of my sentence and ignore the second part. brilliant argument. good night.


i didn't ignore any of it. i answered both of your questions.
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#43 - 2013-06-01 11:37:44 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
[
Fozzie has said they will be watching closely. If ICE belts are consumed within 5 minutes of spawning they will make some adjustments. Personally I do not see that happening beyond the first few weeks.


Agreed, but that cuts both ways.

CCP wants conflict. If they think there's too much ice and not enough fighting, even after the initial changes to ice in Odyssey then there's just as much chance that they will tweak the ice supply DOWN by another few percent to see what happens.

All the more so if nobody bothers with Low Sec ice -- which we know most people will not, for the usual reasons of Low Sec.

Or not. P

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )
Jason Xado
Doomheim
#44 - 2013-06-01 11:49:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Jason Xado
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:

I have missed an option here please enlighten me.


Providence?
Tom Bithoff
OSG Planetary Operations
#45 - 2013-06-01 12:01:07 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
unlike you who simply failed to understand the point being discussed. vOv.

i wasn't questioning the definition, i was questioning you shoehorning it in to a context where it simply isn't true and doesn't make sense.

ok how is ORGANIZING a fleet, collaborating to discourage competitors and sharing respawn timers not steamlining? where is the shoehorning?


because organising a fleet does none of that. hence why you're shoehorning it. it simply doesn't apply.

so you deny the first part of my sentence and ignore the second part. brilliant argument. good night.


i didn't ignore any of it. i answered both of your questions.


Dave, what is the minimum number of collaborators you can imagine needing to mine out an ice belt quickly enough to deny it to the miners who aren't collaborating with you? Your point is only true above that number. When you fall below that number, you become one of the non-collaborators, who don't get to control the timing of the ice respawns, if they indeed wind up being controllable.

To insist that your point, which does tend to be true, is always and absolutely true, is a bit block headed. What if you don't have an orca Alt, is it still more profitable to never cooperate with someone who does have an orca alt?
Dave Stark
#46 - 2013-06-01 12:20:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Tom Bithoff wrote:
Dave, what is the minimum number of collaborators you can imagine needing to mine out an ice belt quickly enough to deny it to the miners who aren't collaborating with you? Your point is only true above that number. When you fall below that number, you become one of the non-collaborators, who don't get to control the timing of the ice respawns, if they indeed wind up being controllable.

To insist that your point, which does tend to be true, is always and absolutely true, is a bit block headed. What if you don't have an orca Alt, is it still more profitable to never cooperate with someone who does have an orca alt?


the time it takes to mine an ice anomaly is irrelevant. (also the minimum number of collaborators is 2501 accounts, 2500 in skiffs + an orca. clears out a belt in about 28 seconds.)

if it takes you 16 hours to mine an ice anomaly, that's better for you than mining it for 30 mins to "deny" it to somebody else. the mere presence of other miners, friendly or hostile, simply has a negative affect on you.

ice mining is going to be the most lucrative isk/hour activity you can do in a mining barge or exhumer outside of baiting people with faction fit ships in some low sec system for ***** and giggles. the more time you spend mining ice, the better. mining ice 5x per day really isn't a consideration of miners, it's irrelevant. you earn x isk/hour. the more people there are mining, the less hours there are.

in all reality, the ideal situation is you have a whole ice belt to yourself and cycle it exactly once per day. that means you're constantly earning the max possible isk/hour, as soon as some one else shows up and causes that anomaly to despawn sooner simply hurts your isk/hour. again, these can be friendly or hostile miners. the fact remains; mining with other people simply hurts yourself and benefits nobody.

as for the exception of "don't have an orca alt" that's great, but why should any one collaborate with you? why should they increase your isk/hour just for you to simply lower their isk/hour? it's in their best interests NOT to give you orca bonuses. so yes, it's always more profitable to not invite people to your mining fleet when harvesting limited resources. even if they *do* have an orca alt, it's still not sensible to collaborate with them because that 1 orca is then an extra miner and thus the time spent ice mining decreases and every one loses out except the guy with +1 miners.

ice mining is now facing a diminishing return similar to what multiboxing ratters face. it's actually all rather interesting.
Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#47 - 2013-06-01 12:59:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Gimme more Cynos
Dave Stark wrote:
Tom Bithoff wrote:
Dave, what is the minimum number of collaborators you can imagine needing to mine out an ice belt quickly enough to deny it to the miners who aren't collaborating with you? Your point is only true above that number. When you fall below that number, you become one of the non-collaborators, who don't get to control the timing of the ice respawns, if they indeed wind up being controllable.

To insist that your point, which does tend to be true, is always and absolutely true, is a bit block headed. What if you don't have an orca Alt, is it still more profitable to never cooperate with someone who does have an orca alt?


the time it takes to mine an ice anomaly is irrelevant. (also the minimum number of collaborators is 2501 accounts, 2500 in skiffs + an orca. clears out a belt in exactly 27.8 seconds.)

if it takes you 16 hours to mine an ice anomaly, that's better for you than mining it for 30 mins to "deny" it to somebody else. the mere presence of other miners, friendly or hostile, simply has a negative affect on you.

ice mining is going to be the most lucrative isk/hour activity you can do in a mining barge or exhumer outside of baiting people with faction fit ships in some low sec system for ***** and giggles. the more time you spend mining ice, the better. mining ice 5x per day really isn't a consideration of miners, it's irrelevant. you earn x isk/hour. the more people there are mining, the less hours there are.

in all reality, the ideal situation is you have a whole ice belt to yourself and cycle it exactly once per day. that means you're constantly earning the max possible isk/hour, as soon as some one else shows up and causes that anomaly to despawn sooner simply hurts your isk/hour. again, these can be friendly or hostile miners. the fact remains; mining with other people simply hurts yourself and benefits nobody.

as for the exception of "don't have an orca alt" that's great, but why should any one collaborate with you? why should they increase your isk/hour just for you to simply lower their isk/hour? it's in their best interests NOT to give you orca bonuses. so yes, it's always more profitable to not invite people to your mining fleet when harvesting limited resources. even if they *do* have an orca alt, it's still not sensible to collaborate with them because that 1 orca is then an extra miner and thus the time spent ice mining decreases and every one loses out except the guy with +1 miners.

ice mining is now facing a diminishing return similar to what multiboxing ratters face. it's actually all rather interesting.


More miners don't really affect your ISK/HR. They do affect the income you can achieve in a given timeframe if the supply is limited though. More miners = less total income, while ISK/HR remains the same. It doesn't matter for ISK/HR if you mine 10mil in 1 hour or 20 mil in 2 hours.

Anyway:

Basically, you are right in what you said - more miners will hurt your income, aslong as you spend enough time on it to utilize availabe ressources, and I do think we will see a huge change once Odyseey hits. Definately possible that Highsec won't be able to supply the demand, and this gives 0.0 miners a lot of options.

Definately interesting!
Dave Stark
#48 - 2013-06-01 13:11:45 UTC
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
More miners don't really affect your ISK/HR. They do affect the income you can achieve in a given timeframe if the supply is limited though. More miners = less total income, while ISK/HR remains the same. It doesn't matter for ISK/HR if you mine 10mil in 1 hour or 20 mil in 2 hours.


quite right, it doesn't affect the isk/hour of the activity, but it affects your isk/hour of game time, however until odyssey those isk/hour numbers have been identical because mining has had 0 downtime or interruptions etc. that's no longer the case.
Grandma Squirel
#49 - 2013-06-01 14:46:17 UTC
I would just point out, that as a consumer of ice products, it does matter to me how quickly you cycle the ice. If each cycles 7-8 times a day, it will maximize supply, and lower the price I must pay.
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#50 - 2013-06-01 14:56:21 UTC
Each anom cannot cycle 7-8 times a day.

Each anom has a 4 hour respawn after the last ice has been taken. So, each anom can cycle maximum 5 times a day ,if its a busy system.

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

Dave Stark
#51 - 2013-06-01 16:14:36 UTC
Grandma Squirel wrote:
it does matter to me how quickly you cycle the ice.


then i suggest this.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#52 - 2013-06-01 17:58:18 UTC
Rhivre wrote:
Each anom cannot cycle 7-8 times a day.

Each anom has a 4 hour respawn after the last ice has been taken. So, each anom can cycle maximum 5 times a day ,if its a busy system.


Actually you can get six cycles a day if you mine them out fast enough. If the first belt pops instantly at the end of downtime and is mined in half an hour or less, and each subsequent belt in half an hour or less, you'll get the sixth spawn 22.5 hours after downtime and have half an hour to mine it as well.

Whether that'll happen is another question.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Dave Stark
#53 - 2013-06-01 18:12:18 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Rhivre wrote:
Each anom cannot cycle 7-8 times a day.

Each anom has a 4 hour respawn after the last ice has been taken. So, each anom can cycle maximum 5 times a day ,if its a busy system.


Actually you can get six cycles a day if you mine them out fast enough. If the first belt pops instantly at the end of downtime and is mined in half an hour or less, and each subsequent belt in half an hour or less, you'll get the sixth spawn 22.5 hours after downtime and have half an hour to mine it as well.

Whether that'll happen is another question.


that works, but you can't do that every day.
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#54 - 2013-06-01 18:26:22 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Rhivre wrote:
Each anom cannot cycle 7-8 times a day.

Each anom has a 4 hour respawn after the last ice has been taken. So, each anom can cycle maximum 5 times a day ,if its a busy system.


Actually you can get six cycles a day if you mine them out fast enough. If the first belt pops instantly at the end of downtime and is mined in half an hour or less, and each subsequent belt in half an hour or less, you'll get the sixth spawn 22.5 hours after downtime and have half an hour to mine it as well.

Whether that'll happen is another question.


That will only work for the first day though. (and subsequently at each repeat of the cycle)

After 23 hours ( sixth spawn), you will have a 4 hour respawn which will take you 3 hours after downtime.

It will likely happen the first day in Osmon and some other systems, one those players figure out where the ice has gone Twisted

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

Dave Stark
#55 - 2013-06-01 18:28:04 UTC
Rhivre wrote:
It will likely happen the first day in Osmon and some other systems, one those players figure out where the ice has gone Twisted


it won't because they'll all scatter to different ice anomalies and it'll take over half an hour to clear any of them.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#56 - 2013-06-01 20:19:00 UTC
Oh, does the spawn timer persist through downtime?

Welp. Lol

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Dave Stark
#57 - 2013-06-01 20:52:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
mynnna wrote:
Oh, does the spawn timer persist through downtime?

Welp. Lol


i would assume so, it does for the grav sites in 0.0 (at least, the ore doesn't respawn in them at downtime). so it's logical to assume ice anoms will be the same. although, i don't think there has been an official comment on that.
Kira Vanachura
Green Visstick High
#58 - 2013-06-01 21:03:43 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Oh, does the spawn timer persist through downtime?

Welp. Lol


i would assume so, it does for the grav sites in 0.0 (at least, the ore doesn't respawn in them at downtime). so it's logical to assume ice anoms will be the same. although, i don't think there has been an official comment on that.

Well they are not grav sites, but anomalies. I have no idea how anomalies work. Missions reset each DT. What happens to an anomaly if you only clear half of it?
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#59 - 2013-06-01 21:30:35 UTC
The anomaly respawns 4 hours after the last ice has been taken

So, if there is half left, then it will not affect the respawn timer

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

Dave Stark
#60 - 2013-06-01 22:25:49 UTC
Kira Vanachura wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Oh, does the spawn timer persist through downtime?

Welp. Lol


i would assume so, it does for the grav sites in 0.0 (at least, the ore doesn't respawn in them at downtime). so it's logical to assume ice anoms will be the same. although, i don't think there has been an official comment on that.

Well they are not grav sites, but anomalies. I have no idea how anomalies work. Missions reset each DT. What happens to an anomaly if you only clear half of it?


yes but odyssey anomalies were grav sites, hence anomalies in 0.0 will follow the same rules as the grav sites did. hence the logical connection that ice belts will use the same system.

anomalies do not reset each DT, if you half clear it, it's still half cleared after downtime.