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What CCP can learn from JAGEX/Runescape.
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Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2011-11-05 15:13:01 UTC
Xiozor wrote:
So, my mother plays the F2P web browser game Runescape


Xiozor wrote:
F2P web browser game Runescape


Xiozor wrote:
my mother plays


Xiozor wrote:
my mother
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#22 - 2011-11-05 15:25:23 UTC
Nearly every response in this thread is a justification for not getting rid of botters.

Have we really come to this?

Botters and botter apologists taking over the forum as well as game?

I give props to Runescape as most F2P games are ignoring the problem completely. You people are pathetic sometimes.

Mr Epeen Cool
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2011-11-05 15:26:03 UTC
Xiozor wrote:
So, my mother plays the F2P web browser game Runescape which has famously been totally inundated with bots and macros for the past few years, crushing its economy and driving prices so high it's "RMT or grind for weeks." With seemingly little action from the developers despite big words and long blogs.



Your post seems to conclude that a game's developers don't want RMT. While it may be true that RMT is bad for the players' game, it's not necessarily a bad thing for the developers. Hooked players are more inclined to purchase via RMT. So cranking up the grind incrementally is the proverbial frog in a pot of water.

You say Runescape is now "RMT or grind for weeks". You see the advantage to the developer here, don't you? If you don't then let me put it another way. RMT is not necessarily an illicit or separate operation from the game itself. What I mean is, surely a game's developers, it's company recognize there is a lot of income to be had from RMT. Why then would they not actively promote and profit from that while playing it down to their customers that it's a bad thing and they're doing everything possible to rid themselves of it?

I for one never believed that the RMT that goes on in Eve is separate from Eve, from CCP. I believe you have certain "approved" entities within the game that are allowed to RMT as long as profits flow into CCP from it. Or these entities might even be CCP in the guise of in game corporation/alliances. All of CCP's botting efforts are focused purely on those RMT operations that CCP is unable to profit from and those players looking to circumvent the grind, which of course is there to tempt one into shortcutting the process in the first place. Sreegs being a CCP member could be indication of just such relationships. Then again, it might not. But, don't tell me CCP doesn't recognize the potential income from RMT and is doing everything it can to rid the game of it. And don't tell me Plex is their means to circumvent it. Didn't the players have to ask for this long ago? The RMT was already there and well entrenched.

Don't ban me, bro!
Xiozor
Deaths Consortium
Pandemic Horde
#24 - 2011-11-05 15:30:27 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Nearly every response in this thread is a justification for not getting rid of botters.

Have we really come to this?

Botters and botter apologists taking over the forum as well as game?

I give props to Runescape as most F2P games are ignoring the problem completely. You people are pathetic sometimes.

Mr Epeen Cool


I think what it boils down to is that threads on forums exist only for people to disagree with the OP, regardless of topic ;)
Paragon Renegade
Sebiestor Tribe
#25 - 2011-11-05 15:39:45 UTC
ITT; Idiots thinking botting is good.

God forbid people play the game with their own two hands.

The pie is a tautology
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#26 - 2011-11-05 16:27:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher Jones
Renan Ruivo wrote:
That is because kicking all bots would FUBAR the economy, at least for a while. Suddenly mineral prices would go up and up and up, everything would cost more, people who didn't mine before will still not mine, money made from other sources will stay the same and everyone will unsub because a ******* drake will cost 200m.

Until people realize that they can now turn a profit with mining themselves. But by that point the subscription base might be too far gone for anyone to care.


Also, good luck with prosecuting any of your players =). Runescape won't do it, they can't take legal action against people outside its country of origin. Well actually they can, but its far too expensive for it to matter.


You can sue a company however.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Barbelo Valentinian
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2011-11-05 16:55:07 UTC
Renan Ruivo wrote:
That is because kicking all bots would FUBAR the economy, at least for a while. Suddenly mineral prices would go up and up and up, everything would cost more, people who didn't mine before will still not mine,


Ah, actually that goes against economic lore AFAIK.

IOW if the price of minerals goes up, you can be damn sure there would be a whole flood of nattie miners.

The whole point of a free economy is that it's self adjusting, particularly in relation to sudden changes in availability of resources.

If bots suddenly disappeared, sure there would be upheaval for a week or two, but things would soon readjust to a new equilibrium.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#28 - 2011-11-05 17:06:16 UTC
damn escalations.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Camios
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2011-11-05 18:29:24 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:


You say Runescape is now "RMT or grind for weeks". You see the advantage to the developer here, don't you? If you don't then let me put it another way. RMT is not necessarily an illicit or separate operation from the game itself. What I mean is, surely a game's developers, it's company recognize there is a lot of income to be had from RMT. Why then would they not actively promote and profit from that while playing it down to their customers that it's a bad thing and they're doing everything possible to rid themselves of it?



The fact that the developers need RMTers is stupid.
First, a developer does not need anyone doing RMT. CCP and Jagex could do it themselves without standing competition and without any problems about being detected, nobody could find the botters because they can generate everything with a mouseclick. They can even open their own "unofficial" RMT shops pretending not to be themselves, and create another company for that.
And as a second reason, it is known that RMTers annoy the long term players.
Moreover RMTers don't "provide a service enhancing the game experience". They are completely unreliable as service providers.








Jean Leaner
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2011-11-05 19:30:18 UTC
Wait, this game developer actually thinks their going to take people to court and win a case on EULA breach? What exactly are their lawyers going to do when the EU customers decide to file countersuit on breaking of EU customer law by even producing an EULA? God game developers are stupid.
Zain Andreas
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#31 - 2011-11-05 20:06:50 UTC
I fully support making eve more like runescape in any way possible.

ccp, please do the needful
Lykouleon
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#32 - 2011-11-05 20:13:43 UTC
Jean Leaner wrote:
Wait, this game developer actually thinks their going to take people to court and win a case on EULA breach? What exactly are their lawyers going to do when the EU customers decide to file countersuit on breaking of EU customer law by even producing an EULA? God game developers are stupid.


Most likely, the EULA would be upheld due to stare decisis on the subject for a couple hundred centuries.

Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword
tika te
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2011-11-05 20:13:53 UTC
u want to do sth?

use the banhammer in a more drastic way:
first ofense b'cause using bots -> one month ban.
second ofense -> permaban.
Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
#34 - 2011-11-05 20:26:38 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:
What would happen if all bots were removed from EVE? I can name a few things:

-Many nullsec alliances will lose an extremely sizable portion of their income
-The prices of goods in general will rise
-Lower inflation
-Cheaper PLEX? (I imagine most bots use PLEX)
-Less lag
-Less local spam in trade hubs

Sounds good to me though ....
Wacktopia
Fleet-Up.com
Keep It Simple Software Group
#35 - 2011-11-05 21:21:38 UTC
DO NOT REMOVE THE WILDERNESS AND FREE TRADE.

(Sorry for caps but there is still some hurt in there Sad)

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com
XIRUSPHERE
In Bacon We Trust
#36 - 2011-11-05 21:35:29 UTC
I truly wish CCP had the resolve to do something like this unfortunately this game is so completely saturated with bots it's pathetic. I would put good money on at least 30% or more of the server pop at any time being a bot and it's pretty tragic that nothings going to change because CCP depends on the revenue from them so much.

The only real question is could people who are actually playing this game take over the plex consumption of these bots, I believe they could easily and it would actually spur people to participate on a deeper level and support miners and industrialist who are doing things honestly.

The advantage of a bad memory is that one can enjoy the same good things for the first time several times.

One will rarely err if extreme actions be ascribed to vanity, ordinary actions to habit, and mean actions to fear.
Berendas
Ascendant Operations
#37 - 2011-11-05 21:43:35 UTC
XIRUSPHERE wrote:
I truly wish CCP had the resolve to do something like this unfortunately this game is so completely saturated with bots it's pathetic.



This
Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
#38 - 2011-11-05 22:29:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Jennifer Starling
XIRUSPHERE wrote:
I truly wish CCP had the resolve to do something like this unfortunately this game is so completely saturated with bots it's pathetic. I would put good money on at least 30% or more of the server pop at any time being a bot and it's pretty tragic that nothings going to change because CCP depends on the revenue from them so much.

The only real question is could people who are actually playing this game take over the plex consumption of these bots, I believe they could easily and it would actually spur people to participate on a deeper level and support miners and industrialist who are doing things honestly.

Very true, in a way these leeches have worked their way into the financial EVE ecology so to speak. We can only guess how many of those pay their subscription with PLEX and how much influence their removal will have on CCP's income and plex prices.

But well isn't that the same for any game with in-game currency? It shouldn't stop any developer from actively fighting them and stop them from spoiling the game for honest players.
DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2011-11-05 22:37:23 UTC
Jennifer Starling wrote:
DarkAegix wrote:
What would happen if all bots were removed from EVE? I can name a few things:

-Many nullsec alliances will lose an extremely sizable portion of their income
-The prices of goods in general will rise
-Lower inflation
-Cheaper PLEX? (I imagine most bots use PLEX)
-Less lag
-Less local spam in trade hubs

Sounds good to me though ....

Yeah, I'm not against bots being banned P
Fille Balle
Ballbreakers R us
#40 - 2011-11-06 00:59:22 UTC
Spaceship Persona Ogeko wrote:
Maybe for the same reason you are assuming that Runescape generates its cashflow from free to play accounts,

I am guessing they do not have as many paid accounts as EvE - however they have multiple times the playerbase (due to the F2P element). They are not exactly a small fish in the MMO marketplace and I would say they are comparable to CCP in regards to paid accounts.


Actually, they have a lot more active subs than eve. But the pricetag is about 1/3 of eve's. As for free players, well it is actually one of the worlds most popular mmo's. Get ready, it's a whopping 10 million accounts total. Not saying all those are active though.



Spaceship Persona Ogeko wrote:
Sooo... When they banned all those people they would of banned a boat load of P2P accounts. A lot of botters use the member only areas in which to bot. Metrics are everything to these people and I think they got the point where botting was so prevalent that non botting subscribers were failing to renew.

In the evolutionary curve of gaming CCP has not reached this point - and perhaps they will never do so due to the fact most of the fun stuff in the game (i.e shooting other players) is actually enjoyable and infinitely complicated. We get people using mouse broadcasting software here at the moment but that is not the end of the world.


Actually, if eve gets to the point that RS was/is in, eve would die.

Spaceship Persona Ogeko wrote:
The EvE economy is a lot more complex and botting is well worth it to many people. I feel CCP would step up their identification methods of botters if the subscriber count remained in the healthy xx% growth a year.

As it stands I can not help but agree that with a declining server population banning botters would make space seem emptier and give EvE a derelict feel and, of course, spike the economy as discussed above.

CCP could learn a lot from Jagex. They just need more new subscriptions to be able to action anything they did learn.


The major difference between the RS economy is the fact that raw materials are worth more than the finished product in RS. This is due to the fact that creating the end product yeilds xp, and those items are generally not considered useful. In eve however, the finished product is almost always worth more than the raw materials, and pretty much every item serves a useful function.

But yeah, I'd say do something before it's too late. RS was able to survive simply because so many players already owned a lot of good gear and were generally rich. Players that got hacked after the botswarm invasion generally just quit the game and never logged on again. It was pretty much impossible to regain the lost wealth.

With eve it's different though. In eve the game will just slowly decline and then all of a sudden it'll be too late. It'll be nearly impossible to get it back on track once it's gone past a certain point.

Stop the spamming, not the scamming!
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