These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Test Server Feedback

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Corp Bookmarks] Feedback and Ideas

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#81 - 2011-11-05 12:44:59 UTC
Zedah Zoid wrote:
I agree. My fear is that with a hardcoded interval for propagating bookmarks is that the pressure will be on to develop tools and/or techniques to predict when the next update will happen and these tools and/or techniques will require someone to create "baseline" dummy bookmarks from time to time just to establish where we are in the cycle of creation versus propagation.

And yes it sounds insane but I guarantee it will be done because it gives you an edge in getting your fleet ready to move etc. If the propagation interval varied randomly(due to subspace interference of course...) then you remove the incentive to try to create tools to predict the time the next update hits.


Doesn't sound even slightly insane. I've been assuming that people would do this as soon as I understood how we're implementing the caching :) The question is whether it's bad, and why.

Two step wrote:
Nullsec is not the issue, since they are gonna see you in local. W-space is the issue, where we often watch people running sites and have enough time to carefully plan our attack. Right now, getting a good warpin on someone running a sleeper site is somewhat risky, with the changes it will be much, much easier.



Rafe Vatta wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of being able to scout completely solo, not recording sigs or anything, and have my reinforcement fleet magically appear where it's needed. I am just not sure it's a mechanic that is good for the game. It's probably a bit of an edge case, but hopefully I explained it well enough that you can now decide how it factors into things. Don't have any ideas for fixing at the moment either.


GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:

My issue with the corp BM even with the 5min delay, and EVEN with the inability to sync BM's to corp when cloaked, is that a savvy cloaky scout can BM an area.. and warp to an area more than 16AU away, decloak and start the sync uncloaked without the problem of being d-scanned.



Just to be totally clear: we understand that this change will make things different in these areas. We're not keen on changing the behavior though unless we have clear-cut cases where it's bad and we can see why it's bad.

Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
For ratters this is an absolute nightmare. An AFK cloaky can return active and set the right bookmarks to get an interceptor of a roaming fleet on top of you in the blink of an eye if it is close to the gate. Before you could atleast be out of range of the warpin with good bookmark use but now the rat you destroyed will be the beacon that finds you scrammed and owned in no time.

I understand there is a technical issue with a direct block on access while cloaked server side. However if I may suggest something client side that blocks access to create them while cloaked. I second the idea to block the right click method while cloaked as a way to preserve the old way to create them as a lesser monster but even that I fear will be abused.

I know the clock is ticking and the benefits of it at the start will outweigh the risks. However I suspect that will change quickly and



This is the sort of info that can potentially change our mind - an explanation of where this could shift the balance of power in a bad way :)

(That said, I'm not convinced by this particular case - you can't tell when an AFK cloaker's come back, so even with what's on TQ currently I as an AFK cloaker can come back, bookmark a can, bounce off a planet and set up an instant warp-in; corp bookmarks trim ~1 minute off the pre-interceptor-jump-in time, which is not at all time-sensitive.

Also implementing checks like this on the client is a total non-starter - we want to move towards a place where people using hacked clients have fewer advantages, not more.
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#82 - 2011-11-05 13:14:30 UTC
We currently have TWO ways of making bookmarks, via right clicking an object in space and by opening up people/places and clicking "bookmark location"

>> CCP should disable the right click style of bookmarking when your cloaked, but still allow the "bookmark location" form when cloaked << Shocked

What this would mean is cloaky scouts cant insta BM stuff 100's of KM away and should use "bookmark location" bm's and warp to's either to the specific item or from celestials to get closer to a target to get a good tactical BM. that way there is risk involved in covertly providing tactical Bookmarks!

They could also align out and uncloak and grab that BM just b4 warping out. This would solve the OP nature of covert right click BM'ing objects in space and chucking them in corp BM folder.


You should also only be able to add and delete Corp BM's and should not be able to drag Corp BM's OUT of the corp folder. much like implants, u can put them in and share them but you cant remove them without destroying them.

Corp BM's should remain a corp asset unless the original creator wishes to gift them to other corps.

BM's should be considered a form of intellectual property, Corp BM's should act like a licence to use something but restricting the ability to RE-distribute in an ad-hoc nature.
Ampoliros
Aperture Harmonics
#83 - 2011-11-05 14:54:10 UTC
i'm in agreement with Greyscale on this - i don't see the issue with the 5min timer. It's already pretty easy to provide warpins via fleet warps or warping to a fleet member, all this does is eliminate some logistical hassle in sorting out fleet warps.

At worst, I would say that Slaktoid has the right idea, and CCP should be sure to keep a dialogue open on the exact duration of the timer in case something horrible happens; but i think honestly, things will be fine
Asayanami Dei
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#84 - 2011-11-05 15:01:13 UTC
Ampoliros wrote:
i'm in agreement with Greyscale on this - i don't see the issue with the 5min timer. It's already pretty easy to provide warpins via fleet warps or warping to a fleet member, all this does is eliminate some logistical hassle in sorting out fleet warps.

At worst, I would say that Slaktoid has the right idea, and CCP should be sure to keep a dialogue open on the exact duration of the timer in case something horrible happens; but i think honestly, things will be fine

I think issues like this will simply need to be revisited later on, after it has been live on TQ for a while.

I'm a leaf on the wind, watch how I--THE CAPACITOR IS EMPTY

Youtube: /asayanami

Twitter: @asayanami

wormholefundamentals.com
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#85 - 2011-11-05 15:31:00 UTC
The feature is great.



I think for fleet situations the corp bookmarks aren't going to be that dramatically different. A good cov ops can drop an interceptor on a ratter easily anyways. A good ratter/mission runner should be aligned out and ready to move out and have his scanner up all the time anyways.


The bigger issue i see corp bookmarks getting "interesting" is for sniping fleets on gates.


Covert Ops can start setting up bookmarks on extended fights and move around and set up more and more bookmarks in the middle of a battle with snipers, and the snipers can start to warp to those while the cov ops gets into position to do other things, rather than only hanging on that gate.


I don't actually think that's a bad thing. It means that more strategic opportunities become available to null fleets than brawling setups. But I do agree there are concerns with being able to instantly share positions.

Where I am.
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#86 - 2011-11-05 17:04:22 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Also implementing checks like this on the client is a total non-starter - we want to move towards a place where people using hacked clients have fewer advantages, not more.



i was under the impression that bookmarks are saved server side not client side? so when u create a bookmark is created server side and relayed to the client. are you saying its the other way round? cause if so how can 2 people creating safes between two object land on each other accidently?? (which i have heard happens)

afaik the bookmarking task gets requested to the server to be completed on the first available server tick, and after that its relayed to the client that created it.

or does it work that the bookmark is instantly created client side and waits for the server tick to 'sync' the server version of that same bookmark to the client that created it?

in either case u have a request to the server either to create or to update a bookmarks position... which u can use as a trigger to check the clients cloaked status. If theyre cloaked according to the server the request is denied. and that stops any movement to that bookmark afterwards.

CCP Greyscale wrote:

That said, I'm not convinced by this particular case - you can't tell when an AFK cloaker's come back, so even with what's on TQ currently I as an AFK cloaker can come back, bookmark a can, bounce off a planet and set up an instant warp-in; corp bookmarks trim ~1 minute off the pre-interceptor-jump-in time, which is not at all time-sensitive.



Yes you cannot tell when an afk cloaker comes back on grid when cloaked. but disabling the right click version of bookmarking means that cloaky scout has to bounce off something and back at range to the location they were at. Sometimes celestials are available to do this in the direction you require, sometimes theyre NOT.
In either case to get that optimum bookmark for a fleet to pounce on would require a cloaky scout to risk being uncloaked when coming back onto the grid trying to work to get that bookmark. Yes it can be done, and it can achieve the same effect as right click > save bookmark, then share with corps, but it requires effort and risks an AFK cloaky scout to be revealed.

RISK VS REWARD - the eve motto!

I can tell you right now that if ur plexing and u have a neut or red in local, u do not feel safe, period. when u have nothing in local u do feel safe, so you do tend to come back out and carry on. AFK cloakies are considered AFK, thats why theyre named that, but right now... on TQ, afk cloakies dont have to risk anything to get bookmarks in a plex or similar.

With the inclusion of corp bookmarks it means he can share those bookmarks, go offline, and then in 5 mins have a fleet jump in and warp in to the plex (or whatever) at point range as if by magic.

No one in system would have seen a scout jump out, and if the scouts done his job correctly then no one would have picked him up on dscan when logging off. The unfortunate person bout to be ganked would consider the system safe to rat/plex/mine etc...

Thats the scenario i think we all want to avoid. Keeping the bookmark of objects while cloaked, and introducing Corp Shared Bookmarks WILL mean this is guaranteed to happen at the lowest risk possible to the aggressors.
Messoroz
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#87 - 2011-11-05 18:00:36 UTC
CCP Tuxford wrote:
Jack Dant wrote:
CCP Tuxford wrote:
Having folders for corporations client side doesn't really make sense since I've heard that there are actually more than one character per corp (crazy right?). Since we're already creating a folder structure for corporation bookmarks to be stored on the DB it didn't make a lot of sense to not move your personal bookmark folders to the server as well.

This sounds great, but how will the transition go? Will all our client-side folders dissapear on patch day, or be transferred?

Transferred.


What happens when I log onto my client on my laptop after patch like normal and my 500+ bookmarks of safes, poses, etc gets transferred with their folders.

But 2 months later I log onto my desktop and update and log into the client which has most of the same bookmarks but in slightly different folders?
Endeavour Starfleet
#88 - 2011-11-05 18:55:53 UTC
Now that I think about it Greyscale, you are right that is a nonstarter for the client idea.

But I disagree with how you are perceiving the overall situation. A good interceptor pilot with the right geometry and distance can warp to a point in the belt in seconds. That one min isn't just some extra min spent lollygagging. Its one min that will mean active pilots can call for support to log in or warp away.
Circumstantial Evidence
#89 - 2011-11-06 21:25:53 UTC
Greygal wrote:
Currently, on SISI, we are limited to ONLY 250 corp bookmarks. At least that's what it looks like to me. Hopefully I'm reading that wrong - but if I'm not, 250 corp bookmarks is NOT ENOUGH.

+5000
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#90 - 2011-11-06 22:06:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Scrapyard Bob
Faeyen wrote:
Jack Dant wrote:
CCP Tuxford wrote:
Having folders for corporations client side doesn't really make sense since I've heard that there are actually more than one character per corp (crazy right?). Since we're already creating a folder structure for corporation bookmarks to be stored on the DB it didn't make a lot of sense to not move your personal bookmark folders to the server as well.

This sounds great, but how will the transition go? Will all our client-side folders dissapear on patch day, or be transferred?


This is not such a big deal for myself as I have a fairly simple folder system, but others rely on their bookmark folders quite heavily. I would at least say that the folders are important to them and redoing them would be a chore.


Smart pilots (and those who have listened to the smart pilots) have preached for years that you need to always prefix your bookmarks with some sort of code which makes it easy to sort them back into folders (in case you lose your folders).

http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Bookmarks#Organizing_and_managing_bookmarks

Any pilot who didn't follow a system deserves the pain when they lose their folders. (Such as when the EVE client acts up and deletes or corrupts its own settings file.)

Naturally, if the client can grab the existing folder/bookmark relationship - that would be a good thing.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#91 - 2011-11-06 22:20:03 UTC
250 sounds about right - it will force corporations to prioritize which bookmarks get shared. (Limited resources and resource management are a key part of any MMO.)

If you let corps do more then 250, then what's to stop an evil spy with the ability to create corp bookmarks from creating a few hundred bookmarks in a specific system, then arrange a fleet fight where you jump and lag out due to all that time spent loading bookmarks? Or killing the right-click menu for you due to there being a few hundred bookmarks in the right-click list?

As for the delay, I suggest that no bookmarks less then 5 minutes old be allowed to propagate during the syncs that run every 5 minutes. That will do away with people attempting to time the sync interval in order to get distributed bookmarks that are less then 30 seconds old. It would push the average bookmark age to 7.5 minutes instead of 2.5 minutes.
Jervis Clayton
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#92 - 2011-11-07 02:53:11 UTC
I gotta say, I agree with CCP here, 5 minutes or 0 minutes, doesn't make a huge difference to scouts.

Right now a cloaky can bm a wreck right next to a ratter, warp at range to the K162, have the whole fleet jump into the system, and fleet warp the fleet right on the bookmark. That's just about as instant as you can get and if the covops cancels cloak

Also, the 120km burn theory is completely fubar.

120km @ 250m/s == 8 Minutes
120km @ 500m/s == 4 Minutes
30km @ 250m/s + Reverse align for warp == 2 Minutes +some change
30km @ 500m/s + Reverse align for warp == 1 Minute + some change

Really a thin bonus.

The only argument that I see as valid is the cloaky scout scouting a wh chain and being able to share easier, without having to provide warpin's/return to get the fleet. Imo, this shouldn't really be a big problem because it only affects wh residents, and it actually encourages more small-gang pvp. Let's have it.
Lenid Kalkin
#93 - 2011-11-07 06:27:58 UTC

With a good set of pilots, instantaneous shared bookmarks is functionally the same thing as being able to initiate fleet warps for ships on a different grid. So no more needing the FC to probe things out, be on same grid as fleet, and do the gang warp.

In the past, an FC had 2 options if he wanted to warp his fleet onto a different grid and engage the enemy.

1) Warp everyone at 0-100km from an in place scout. This could be dangerous (and SLOW) for a scout and specific angles were incredibly hard to get set up correctly (for bomb runs).

2) Warp fleet to probe results. Good luck in trying to choose where you'd land on grid because all you got were 100s of identical hits at 38.8 AU (aka no useful differentiation in your probe results other than ship type)

Now a single scout on grid with probes has exact and useful range to every ship on grid and can precisely identify which probe result is which ship on grid. Book mark it. And instantly have his/her fleet warping to the exact spot.

Viva la bombing runs. It's not the end of sub-bs fleets, but it's a big step in that direction.
Aelana Anais
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2011-11-10 21:30:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Aelana Anais
Lenid Kalkin wrote:

With a good set of pilots, instantaneous shared bookmarks is functionally the same thing as being able to initiate fleet warps for ships on a different grid. So no more needing the FC to probe things out, be on same grid as fleet, and do the gang warp.

In the past, an FC had 2 options if he wanted to warp his fleet onto a different grid and engage the enemy.

1) Warp everyone at 0-100km from an in place scout. This could be dangerous (and SLOW) for a scout and specific angles were incredibly hard to get set up correctly (for bomb runs).

2) Warp fleet to probe results. Good luck in trying to choose where you'd land on grid because all you got were 100s of identical hits at 38.8 AU (aka no useful differentiation in your probe results other than ship type)

Now a single scout on grid with probes has exact and useful range to every ship on grid and can precisely identify which probe result is which ship on grid. Book mark it. And instantly have his/her fleet warping to the exact spot.

Viva la bombing runs. It's not the end of sub-bs fleets, but it's a big step in that direction.


Well right now you can have a scout on grid with probes and an FC with the fleet also with probes and accomplish the same thing (scout relays which signatures are which so the FC knows exactly which one to warp to).

To those not too familiar with probing, in addition to " 100s of identical hits at 38.8 AU (aka no useful differentiation in your probe results other than ship type)" you get an ID with each result. That ID is the same for the FC as it is for the scout so the scout who is on grid can figure out from distance which result is which and tell the FC which ID to warp to.
Stralow
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#95 - 2011-11-15 11:35:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Stralow
I've testet Corp BMs on the latest and final sisi build and i have a suggestion. Maybe i've missed something, but this is how i get it:

I've created a BM on one char and moved it to the corp BM folder. Then I've watched the second account with the p&p tab open. Nothing happend. After a while i closed p&p on the 2nd account and reopend it and voila there is the Corp BM from the 1st account.
is it possible to let the p&p tab on the left blink if there is a new corp BM? Now you have to close and reopen it to see if there is something new. As i live in a WH there will be much of changing BMs all the time.

And the second is the thing with the Communication Officerrole to delete BMs, thats not very good. In a WH all ppl make BMs and lots of ppl should delete old BMs, because WHs, annos, sigs and all that stuff appear and disappears all the time.
So a WH corp has to give the right to every member to work with that tool properly.
Maybe its possible to make special BMs a CEO/director can set and a normal member can't delete and a normal set of BMs that everyone can play around with and delete?

i say we take off and nuke the whole site from orbit. it's the only way to be sure
Magic Crisp
Amarrian Micro Devices
#96 - 2011-11-15 12:41:04 UTC
Also it'd be awesome to restrict a few corp BM folders to some members, even for read access (that is, for seeing and/or using them). There are some BMs which should be secured, but would be awesome to be shared through this new feature.

Like only FCs getting the set of important BMs for an upcoming OP, or a wormhole's entrence, or such thing. Other common bookmarks, like mining spots, undock BMs and similar things can be accessed by everyone in a corp by default.
LacLongQuan
Doomheim
#97 - 2011-11-15 12:42:06 UTC
Stralow wrote:
I've testet Corp BMs on the latest and final sisi build and i have a suggestion. Maybe i've missed something, but this is how i get it:

I've created a BM on one char and moved it to the corp BM folder. Then I've watched the second account with the p&p tab open. Nothing happend. After a while i closed p&p on the 2nd account and reopend it and voila there is the Corp BM from the 1st account.
is it possible to let the p&p tab on the left blink if there is a new corp BM? Now you have to close and reopen it to see if there is something new. As i live in a WH there will be much of changing BMs all the time.

And the second is the thing with the Communication Officerrole to delete BMs, thats not very good. In a WH all ppl make BMs and lots of ppl should delete old BMs, because WHs, annos, sigs and all that stuff appear and disappears all the time.
So a WH corp has to give the right to every member to work with that tool properly.
Maybe its possible to make special BMs a CEO/director can set and a normal member can't delete and a normal set of BMs that everyone can play around with and delete?

very good idea, this way can help prevent spais and noob
Megarom
Shiva
Northern Coalition.
#98 - 2011-11-15 12:54:38 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:

As for the delay, I suggest that no bookmarks less then 5 minutes old be allowed to propagate during the syncs that run every 5 minutes. That will do away with people attempting to time the sync interval in order to get distributed bookmarks that are less then 30 seconds old. It would push the average bookmark age to 7.5 minutes instead of 2.5 minutes.


This is exactly what my coders brain came up with while reading the thread. The timestamps are already there and it's just one if more so shouldn't over complicate things. Added benefit is that you can make the game designers feel important by letting them decide the values of the two timers.
Zagdul
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2011-11-15 15:38:50 UTC
CCP Tuxford wrote:

I think I know what you're getting at. So basically a cloaked ship can create a bookmark near a fleet and the rest warp in there. I don't think it's that big of an issue as people can already warp to the cloaked ship anyway. Of course there could be something that I'm missing. The restriction is for server performance so having it instant isn't really up for debate anyway P

Putting any kind of predictable update on a public (corp or otherwise) bookmark locations can be potentially exploitable in a fleet combat situation.

This also goes with the ability to mail bookmarks, which I'm glad was removed.

Dual Pane idea: Click!

CCP Please Implement
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#100 - 2011-11-15 17:53:06 UTC
For me corp Bookmarks dont work AT ALL :D

Anyway, to CCP Tuxford - I will kill a lot of carabearing ratters in WH in Your name to honor great work You've done to help poor WH dwellers.

Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?