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Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#21 - 2013-05-31 16:01:04 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
The whole problem with that logic chain...


I think Malc was just trying to use a conceptual example to give some meaning to the relative value of moons.

The point is that drastically increasing the "cost" (risk, effort, etc) of finding, taking, and holding moons will not increase the conflict generated by them.

And again, it's moot because CCP won't do it, and we wouldn't let them do it. Bad "outsider-looking-in" ideas like this are precisely why nullsec dominates the CSM now, and will continue to do so in perpetuity.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-05-31 17:19:56 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
The whole problem with that logic chain, and I'm not disagreeing with the logic, is that pretty much no resources are going to be worth fighting for, until it, by itself, can replace the entire fleet


Which pretty much removes them as conflict drivers, leaving you only with two reasons to fight:
1: Boredom
2: Ideology.

Which points to a requirement for a big shake-up in how resources can change hands. Where small fleets can make a difference, without being hideously expensive to replace.


Well the trick with moons now is that if you do well, you can expect you'll hold that moon as well as all your other moons indefinitely, so even if the money you spend fighting for one exceeds the value of that one moon for the next few months, your other moons make it up over that time and on into the future.

Again, not the case if they're always moving.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#23 - 2013-05-31 18:20:45 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Time ago, i suggested that bottleneck matherials should move across the map. Once harvested beyond a threshold in a part of the map, they would begin spawning elsewhere. That would keep space conquerors on the move and would add a lot more drama to null/low.

Just figure small entities A finding that worthy R64s are on their backyard and larger ones come after them. Or figure larger blocs whose R64s no longer are worth harvesting and must fight the neighbor to get some.

Maybe then they wouldn't bore to the point of messing with hisec, heh. Bear


Please scan out a constellation full of moons.

Now imagine having to scan out a couple of regions every week or so.



personally moons should not be dynamic... but i would love to see hauler spanws in 0.0 belts drop moon goo instead of mins...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#24 - 2013-05-31 18:26:29 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:


And again, it's moot because CCP won't do it, and we wouldn't let them do it. Bad "outsider-looking-in" ideas like this are precisely why nullsec dominates the CSM now, and will continue to do so in perpetuity.


Not to mention the "Grrr nullseccers!!!11" people who make this suggestion will be the first to cry like a stuck pig when the price of T2 stuff soars to 2006 levels, because you can be damb sure that when the supply plummets (as it obviously would), the R64 holders would use it to assure their own supply of T2 stuff first.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-05-31 19:18:17 UTC
I did write a piece saying why moongoo rotation is a Bad Idea: http://themittani.com/features/case-against-moongoo-depletion

Of course some morons attacked it because they think moongoo rotation was the only way to nerf tech, so just ignore the comments section.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Oliver Stoned
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2013-05-31 22:29:02 UTC
mynnna wrote:
[
Oliver Stoned wrote:
Bottleneck materials should be available to all players.
With exploration being opened to everyone and made a lot easier, when will the newbie pilots have easy access to R64?

Shouldn't new pilots experience moon reactions and mining too?

Just remove moon mining from POS's and move it to MI (moon interaction) just like PI.
That will remove the majority of the bottleneck and allow new players to have a equal play.

Your punishment for this bad post is to go write "Bottlenecks are a good and healthy thing for Eve Online." on the chalkboard, fifty times.


"Bottlenecks are a good and healthy thing for Eve Online."
"Bottlenecks are a good and healthy thing for Eve Online."
"Bottlenecks are a good and healthy thing for Eve Online."
"Bottlenecks are a good and healthy thing for Eve Online."
"Bottlenecks are a good and healthy thing for Eve Online."

WAIT!!... they aren't a good thing unless you OWN the bloody bottleneck, then it's a monopoly bottleneck.
Especially when it comes to the rarer moons. Let us see how Odyssey will weaken the hold/increase the flow on moon goo.

I still think that removing moon mining from POS's and creating MI (moon interaction) will move playing field to be somewhat equaled.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-06-01 02:10:52 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
Oliver Stoned wrote:
mynnna wrote:
[
Oliver Stoned wrote:
Bottleneck materials should be available to all players.
With exploration being opened to everyone and made a lot easier, when will the newbie pilots have easy access to R64?

Shouldn't new pilots experience moon reactions and mining too?

Just remove moon mining from POS's and move it to MI (moon interaction) just like PI.
That will remove the majority of the bottleneck and allow new players to have a equal play.

Your punishment for this bad post is to go write "Bottlenecks are a good and healthy thing for Eve Online." on the chalkboard, fifty times.


"Bottlenecks are a good and healthy thing for Eve Online."
"Bottlenecks are a good and healthy thing for Eve Online."
"Bottlenecks are a good and healthy thing for Eve Online."
"Bottlenecks are a good and healthy thing for Eve Online."
"Bottlenecks are a good and healthy thing for Eve Online."

WAIT!!... they aren't a good thing unless you OWN the bloody bottleneck, then it's a monopoly bottleneck.
Especially when it comes to the rarer moons. Let us see how Odyssey will weaken the hold/increase the flow on moon goo.

I still think that removing moon mining from POS's and creating MI (moon interaction) will move playing field to be somewhat equaled.




R64s are distributed across all of eve, which will make a "monopoly" on them unfeasible.

In any case, I still disagree with MI, if only because it's a duplication of an existing game system, and I think it's preferable to avoid that sort of thing when possible. There are plenty of other means by which moon mining could become a bottom up rather than top down resource.


Now get back to writing. You've got 45 more times to go. Blink

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Prince Kobol
#28 - 2013-06-01 10:04:05 UTC
The advantages I see moving moon goo to a similar system like PI is that it is no longer controlled by a few, custom offices are much easy to interrupt, destroy, camp then pos's, less pos's in space which has to be a good thing and it is another possible source of income for grunts.

The downside is that the current PI mechanic is a horrible and most of the null sec alliance which own moons will hate this idea as it gives them less control.

Also there is a lot more work involved in regards to managing all that moon goo coming in from possibly hundreds, even thousands of players.

Saying all of that I would love moon goo to use a system similar to PI.
Oliver Stoned
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2013-06-01 20:33:07 UTC
]
mynnna wrote:
[
Oliver Stoned wrote:

WAIT!!... they aren't a good thing unless you OWN the bloody bottleneck, then it's a monopoly bottleneck.
Especially when it comes to the rarer moons. Let us see how Odyssey will weaken the hold/increase the flow on moon goo.

I still think that removing moon mining from POS's and creating MI (moon interaction) will move playing field to be somewhat equaled.




R64s are distributed across all of eve, which will make a "monopoly" on them unfeasible.

In any case, I still disagree with MI, if only because it's a duplication of an existing game system, and I think it's preferable to avoid that sort of thing when possible. There are plenty of other means by which moon mining could become a bottom up rather than top down resource.


Now get back to writing. You've got 45 more times to go. Blink


So you don't like PI in any form?

What other means do you see for moon mining.
Keep in mind, it has to be entry level like PI and the changing scanning/probing coming in Odyssey.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#30 - 2013-06-04 03:03:32 UTC
Oliver Stoned wrote:
]
mynnna wrote:
[
Oliver Stoned wrote:

WAIT!!... they aren't a good thing unless you OWN the bloody bottleneck, then it's a monopoly bottleneck.
Especially when it comes to the rarer moons. Let us see how Odyssey will weaken the hold/increase the flow on moon goo.

I still think that removing moon mining from POS's and creating MI (moon interaction) will move playing field to be somewhat equaled.




R64s are distributed across all of eve, which will make a "monopoly" on them unfeasible.

In any case, I still disagree with MI, if only because it's a duplication of an existing game system, and I think it's preferable to avoid that sort of thing when possible. There are plenty of other means by which moon mining could become a bottom up rather than top down resource.


Now get back to writing. You've got 45 more times to go. Blink


So you don't like PI in any form?

What other means do you see for moon mining.
Keep in mind, it has to be entry level like PI and the changing scanning/probing coming in Odyssey.


Says who? One of the overall concepts of ring mining was that it would be an "incursion-like" activity, in that it would be a group focused, periodic, high value activity. It'd have to be periodic and high value if it were an active profession, in fact, because if it's constantly accessible like regular mining it just isn't worth it. A Tech moon at 80k, for example, was only worth about 7m per hour. But, if mining an intergalactic comet or what have you took twenty players but delivered two weeks worth of output from several moons in the span of a day, the hourly value is considerably higher.

While the specific concept of "ring mining" seems to be abandoned, I still like the principles of it. Not everything has to be "entry level" or "accessible to new players", nor something you can do alone.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Oliver Stoned
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2013-06-12 04:22:02 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Oliver Stoned wrote:
]
mynnna wrote:
[
Oliver Stoned wrote:

WAIT!!... they aren't a good thing unless you OWN the bloody bottleneck, then it's a monopoly bottleneck.
Especially when it comes to the rarer moons. Let us see how Odyssey will weaken the hold/increase the flow on moon goo.

I still think that removing moon mining from POS's and creating MI (moon interaction) will move playing field to be somewhat equaled.




R64s are distributed across all of eve, which will make a "monopoly" on them unfeasible.

In any case, I still disagree with MI, if only because it's a duplication of an existing game system, and I think it's preferable to avoid that sort of thing when possible. There are plenty of other means by which moon mining could become a bottom up rather than top down resource.


Now get back to writing. You've got 45 more times to go. Blink


So you don't like PI in any form?

What other means do you see for moon mining.
Keep in mind, it has to be entry level like PI and the changing scanning/probing coming in Odyssey.


Says who? One of the overall concepts of ring mining was that it would be an "incursion-like" activity, in that it would be a group focused, periodic, high value activity. It'd have to be periodic and high value if it were an active profession, in fact, because if it's constantly accessible like regular mining it just isn't worth it. A Tech moon at 80k, for example, was only worth about 7m per hour. But, if mining an intergalactic comet or what have you took twenty players but delivered two weeks worth of output from several moons in the span of a day, the hourly value is considerably higher.

While the specific concept of "ring mining" seems to be abandoned, I still like the principles of it. Not everything has to be "entry level" or "accessible to new players", nor something you can do alone.




Says who? CCP does.
Look at what they have done to exploration.

After training all the astrometric skills to level 5 for effective finding of sites.
Now anyone can find Gravimetric sites with no skills is like having a new 10day old pilot mining R64 moons with a PI for moons.
No effort needed.
Now that would play more to Black Ops to get your materials out of a enemy controlled area or just sell it to them on the market.

I agree that group focused activity should pay more.
Just keep in mind that a solo player can now find your group with ease and disrupt that payout with little or no recourse.

I do like the idea of having ship types finding the site types.
Combat ships find Combat sites.
Mining ships find Ore sites.
If you want to find Ore sites, you need skills with mining ships.
Combat ships for combat sites.
Example:
If a pvp'r wants to hunt a mining group, he will need equal ship skills in mining ships.
If a miner wants to find combat sites, he will need equal ship skills in combat ships.
That would be a equalizer or at least more alts.

Is there any talk of replacing the former gravimetric site with other/better materials?
Like a Comet, some exploded planet/moon, dark matter, Supernova remnant or other celesital object to find?

How about harvesting a Star's energy? Like a solar collector for energy?
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#32 - 2013-06-12 13:39:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
I did not realize notifications were broken so Ive not known anyone was looking at this.

Moving moons does not break a bottleneck if the total number stays the same. It would still be "No amount of player effort increases the amount mined". What would do it is if you could place an unlimited number of POSes around a moon, but #2 would mine 1/2 the amount, #3 would get 1/3rd, #4, 1/4th, and so on. (No I do not think this is a great idea, just an example).

Diminishing returns with effort.

Besides, there are more issues than moons. There are many things in the game where coding limits what the players can harvest and no amount of player effort can get around the coding. High sec ice just became one: No amount of player effort can get more than 2500 blocks in four hours from an ice field.

Salvage is one, in a different way: No amount of effort gets more armor plates relative to other types of salvage. The result being most salvage is almost worthless. Why even have the worthless types in the game?

Sure some things can be more valuable than others, and should be. But the result of that should be players try to get more of the valuable stuff. But if the total amount of valuable stuff is limited by game mechanics, then its useless for players to go after getting more of it, because their efforts are blocked by game mechanics!

A bottleneck is not an incentive to players to get a valuable resource, its a deterrent. They see the bottleneck and think "I cannot get more of it because there is no more, so why try?"

Instead the brick wall limits should be removed and replaced with "Diminishing returns with effort".

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#33 - 2013-06-12 15:09:35 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:


A bottleneck is not an incentive to players to get a valuable resource, its a deterrent. They see the bottleneck and think "I cannot get more of it because there is no more, so why try?".


Some players think that way. Others take a more active, less apathetic view of the situation and see a gigantic opportunity.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Kozlack
KM Industries
#34 - 2013-06-13 07:55:26 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Time ago, i suggested that bottleneck materials should move across the map. Once harvested beyond a threshold in a part of the map, they would begin spawning elsewhere. That would keep space conquerors on the move and would add a lot more drama to null/low.

Just figure small entities A finding that worthy R64s are on their backyard and larger ones come after them. Or figure larger blocs whose R64s no longer are worth harvesting and must fight the neighbor to get some.

Maybe then they wouldn't bore to the point of messing with hisec, heh. Bear


It's a good idea, spreads stuff around, breaks up the blueblock westies.


Malcanis wrote:
Please scan out a constellation full of moons.

Now imagine having to scan out a couple of regions every week or so.



I've done that, and I've also made instawarps (Before the advent of "Warp to 0km", odds are before your time) for the entire south, Querious, Delve, Period Basis, Paragon Soul, Esoteria, Stain, Catch, Curse, Fethy, Impass, Tenerifis, Detroid, Scalding Pass, Cache, Great Wildlands, and w/e region I might have missed (Except Provi, even back in the day that place was worthless and no one went through it.)

...Come at me brah! Twisted

On vaction from hawk-eyeing local..... in empire

Oliver Stoned
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2013-06-14 05:33:06 UTC
mynnna wrote:


R64s are distributed across all of eve, which will make a "monopoly" on them unfeasible.

In any case, I still disagree with MI, if only because it's a duplication of an existing game system, and I think it's preferable to avoid that sort of thing when possible. There are plenty of other means by which moon mining could become a bottom up rather than top down resource.


Now get back to writing. You've got 45 more times to go. Blink


Really?? Unfeaseable?
Now that Goonswarm is invading Fountain for the "moon value" as Jester says.
On the fence: Process them
Looks like the unfeasible monopoly IS beginning.
Propaganda is the best thing Goonswarm is good at.
Continuing to make ISK a close 2nd.

Jester says it best
Quote:
Seen this way, the Goon invasion of Fountain is simply their attempt to maintain the status quo they've enjoyed for the past three years. That amount of time has given them enormous wealth sufficient to build up a massive strategic reserve. Given the patience, persistence, and organization that the Goons have displayed over those last three years, there's every reason to think this attempt to perpetuate the status quo will eventually be successful.(1)


The question is " what will CCP do??"
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2013-06-14 06:23:47 UTC
Oliver Stoned wrote:
Really?? Unfeaseable?
Now that Goonswarm is invading Fountain for the "moon value" as Jester says.
On the fence: Process them


Unless you think that invading Fountain is the first step in a plan to conquer every last square inch of conquerable 0.0 while taking all of the NPC 0.0/lowsec R64's in the process, and that this plan would somehow work out, then yes, it's unfeasible.

Remember, one of the biggest problems with the Tech era wasn't just that a small group could control it. The other major issue was that no other moon material was comparable because of the ability to easily create a Tech cartel. This led to a pretty massive wealth gap, which is just bad for business. The way things are right now, even if the CFC takes Fountain and maintains their own internal goings-on, there's still an awful lot of R64's in the game for their enemies to take use of, meaning the wealth gap will get progressively smaller as time goes on.

This is the part where you say "lol goon propaganda RollRollRollRollTwistedTwistedTwistedRollRollRoll" and ignore everything. Will you defy your very nature and try reading a thing for once? Only time will tell!

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#37 - 2013-06-14 18:59:08 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
Oliver Stoned wrote:
mynnna wrote:


R64s are distributed across all of eve, which will make a "monopoly" on them unfeasible.

In any case, I still disagree with MI, if only because it's a duplication of an existing game system, and I think it's preferable to avoid that sort of thing when possible. There are plenty of other means by which moon mining could become a bottom up rather than top down resource.


Now get back to writing. You've got 45 more times to go. Blink


Really?? Unfeaseable?
Now that Goonswarm is invading Fountain for the "moon value" as Jester says.
On the fence: Process them
Looks like the unfeasible monopoly IS beginning.
Propaganda is the best thing Goonswarm is good at.
Continuing to make ISK a close 2nd.

Jester says it best
Quote:
Seen this way, the Goon invasion of Fountain is simply their attempt to maintain the status quo they've enjoyed for the past three years. That amount of time has given them enormous wealth sufficient to build up a massive strategic reserve. Given the patience, persistence, and organization that the Goons have displayed over those last three years, there's every reason to think this attempt to perpetuate the status quo will eventually be successful.(1)


The question is " what will CCP do??"


Yeah uh us taking an additional region does not a monopoly make, sorry. And if you think we can do what would be necessary to monopolize R64s - conquer the whole game, basically - then you seem to think we can do the impossible.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Oliver Stoned
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2013-06-23 15:47:45 UTC
mynnna wrote:


Yeah uh us taking an additional region does not a monopoly make, sorry. And if you think we can do what would be necessary to monopolize R64s - conquer the whole game, basically - then you seem to think we can do the impossible.


Isn't that the whole nature of your intention?
According to your own wiki, Goonswarm was founded on 06/07/06 with the intention of causing the game to fail.
Latest tactic, one R64 moon at a time.

Websters Definition of MONOPOLY
1: exclusive ownership through legal privilege, command of supply, or concerted action
2: exclusive possession or control
3: a commodity controlled by one party
4: one that has a monopoly

Propaganda Propaganda Propaganda
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#39 - 2013-06-24 01:40:38 UTC
Oliver Stoned wrote:
mynnna wrote:


Yeah uh us taking an additional region does not a monopoly make, sorry. And if you think we can do what would be necessary to monopolize R64s - conquer the whole game, basically - then you seem to think we can do the impossible.


Isn't that the whole nature of your intention?
According to your own wiki, Goonswarm was founded on 06/07/06 with the intention of causing the game to fail.
Latest tactic, one R64 moon at a time.

Websters Definition of MONOPOLY
1: exclusive ownership through legal privilege, command of supply, or concerted action
2: exclusive possession or control
3: a commodity controlled by one party
4: one that has a monopoly

Propaganda Propaganda Propaganda





Roll


I want you to think long and hard and answer me one question.

Why would we want a game we play and enjoy to fail?

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#40 - 2013-06-24 05:43:25 UTC
It's worth noting that at current prices, the CFC's investment into the Fountain R64s will take at least 2 years to pay off.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
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