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[IDEA] Adding untrained skills to queue

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Komodo Askold
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#21 - 2013-05-31 12:32:59 UTC
Personally, I vote for being able to put in queue a skill whose last prerequisite skill (for example, Medium Projectile Turrets lvl 5 for training Medium Autocannon Specialization) hasn't finished training yet but is already on queue. With that example:

- I put MPT lvl 4 --> lvl 5 on queue.
- Trains up until less that 24 hours.
- What I'm talking about is that I'd like to be able to put MAS (as many levels as I can) at this point on queue, right after MPT, so when MPT5 ends, MAS begins inmediatly, exactly like when you train several levels of the same skill consecutevly.

Not sure if this is what the OP meant, but I think this is a good place to leave this.
Saithe
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-05-31 12:42:14 UTC
Here's another possible consequence (risk/reward):

You are allowed to inject any skill you have purchased, and obviously you are unable to train them until the pre-reqs are met. If you are podded, you now not only lose skill points, but lose the untrained skills as well. This would prevent someone from going to jita, buying every skill book, injecting them, then self destructing their pod bad to null. Using a jump clone, however, would keep the skills intact.
Phobeus Primae
Hard Shell
#23 - 2013-05-31 13:00:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Phobeus Primae
For me using jump clone just to apper in jita and inject some skills is pain in the ass, so I would welcome this change. But it has some advantages and disadvantages:

+ less effort with skill training
+ it generates additional isk sink. After implementing this change there will be massive skill buyout and I dont believe that most of people will train them all
- less chance to gank someone transporting expensive skillbooks
- for newbies there's possibility on spending all their precious iskies on skillbooks, which later may be found unneeded. If they inject them, there will be no option to get back the money

anyway +1 for good idea
Sirran The Lunatic
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#24 - 2013-05-31 13:04:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Sirran The Lunatic
I see a downside to this (in a manner of speaking, not wholeheartedly bad, just throwing ideas out there)

The concept of skillbooks becomes kind of pointless. Think of it: "Hey, did you sit in Jita for 4hours and buy/inject every single skillbook yet?"

It'd be just a monotonous proccess which we'd end up doing, not out of neccessity... but out of the convenience of being able to buy and inject all skills, it becomes inconvenient to sit there and buy/inject allt he skills. I get that it's an isk sink, but then why not just make it cost isk to start training a skill you want instead of perusing the market and having to wait for the buy window to pop up on every skill book (because, face it, many players will just buy -every- skill book ever for what that character wants to do).

So instead make a skill injectable/queue-able when the level 5 pre-req is in the training queue and remove it if they remove the pre-req from the queue. This gives a large(er) window to choose when to buy and inject skillbooks, but keeps you from ever having to worry about making players feel like the "convenient" path is to sit in Jita and "buy all the things(books)!"

/devil's advocate
Phobeus Primae
Hard Shell
#25 - 2013-05-31 13:11:28 UTC
Sirran The Lunatic wrote:

So instead make a skill injectable/queue-able when the level 5 pre-req is in the training queue and remove it if they remove the pre-req from the queue.

Making skills "injectable" when all lvl 5 pre-requisites are trained to lvl 4 would be even better!
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#26 - 2013-05-31 13:21:18 UTC
Sirran The Lunatic wrote:
The concept of skillbooks becomes kind of pointless. Think of it: "Hey, did you sit in Jita for 4hours and buy/inject every single skillbook yet?"

It'd be just a monotonous proccess which we'd end up doing, not out of neccessity... but out of the convenience of being able to buy and inject all skills, it becomes inconvenient to sit there and buy/inject allt he skills.

I pretty much agree with this.

Sirran The Lunatic wrote:
So instead make a skill injectable/queue-able when the level 5 pre-req is in the training queue and remove it if they remove the pre-req from the queue.

Not a terrible idea, but I could see it being potentially buggy. The idea I like best so far is queuing up the injection of the book. It's not without its own issues, though... you'd need to require that when the time comes, the pilot and book are both in the same station, and that could cause some frustration with people who don't quite understand how it works.
CCP Fear
C C P
C C P Alliance
#27 - 2013-05-31 13:31:48 UTC
Zor'katar wrote:
Sirran The Lunatic wrote:
The concept of skillbooks becomes kind of pointless. Think of it: "Hey, did you sit in Jita for 4hours and buy/inject every single skillbook yet?"

It'd be just a monotonous proccess which we'd end up doing, not out of neccessity... but out of the convenience of being able to buy and inject all skills, it becomes inconvenient to sit there and buy/inject allt he skills.

I pretty much agree with this.

Sirran The Lunatic wrote:
So instead make a skill injectable/queue-able when the level 5 pre-req is in the training queue and remove it if they remove the pre-req from the queue.

Not a terrible idea, but I could see it being potentially buggy. The idea I like best so far is queuing up the injection of the book. It's not without its own issues, though... you'd need to require that when the time comes, the pilot and book are both in the same station, and that could cause some frustration with people who don't quite understand how it works.


I agree. The consequence will be that you could basically sit in a station, inject all skills and then be free. Then I start to wonder if then having skills on the market and as an item is even relevant anymore. Then we could just allow you to buy them directly in the sheet when you would need them.

I'm also not sure if there is a great benefit in introducing an even more complex rule set in injection as it is now.

Definitely some interesting edge cases and caveats that come with this.
Grideris
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-05-31 13:45:43 UTC
CCP Fear wrote:
Zor'katar wrote:
Sirran The Lunatic wrote:
The concept of skillbooks becomes kind of pointless. Think of it: "Hey, did you sit in Jita for 4hours and buy/inject every single skillbook yet?"

It'd be just a monotonous proccess which we'd end up doing, not out of neccessity... but out of the convenience of being able to buy and inject all skills, it becomes inconvenient to sit there and buy/inject allt he skills.

I pretty much agree with this.

Sirran The Lunatic wrote:
So instead make a skill injectable/queue-able when the level 5 pre-req is in the training queue and remove it if they remove the pre-req from the queue.

Not a terrible idea, but I could see it being potentially buggy. The idea I like best so far is queuing up the injection of the book. It's not without its own issues, though... you'd need to require that when the time comes, the pilot and book are both in the same station, and that could cause some frustration with people who don't quite understand how it works.


I agree. The consequence will be that you could basically sit in a station, inject all skills and then be free. Then I start to wonder if then having skills on the market and as an item is even relevant anymore. Then we could just allow you to buy them directly in the sheet when you would need them.

I'm also not sure if there is a great benefit in introducing an even more complex rule set in injection as it is now.

Definitely some interesting edge cases and caveats that come with this.


Only issue with removing skill books from the market is that some skillbooks are deliberately only seeded in certain areas or not seeded at all (instead coming from exploration sites). You could change it so that only skill books normally seeded by the NPC academies are available directly from the skill sheet, but I think that might cause some issues with some skills being book based and others not.

The other option is to make it that skill books are remotely injectable - therefore if you own it anywhere, you can inject it from anywhere.

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Saithe
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#29 - 2013-05-31 14:17:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Saithe
CCP Fear wrote:

I agree. The consequence will be that you could basically sit in a station, inject all skills and then be free. Then I start to wonder if then having skills on the market and as an item is even relevant anymore. Then we could just allow you to buy them directly in the sheet when you would need them.

I'm also not sure if there is a great benefit in introducing an even more complex rule set in injection as it is now.

Definitely some interesting edge cases and caveats that come with this.


I, for one, would GREATLY welcome this change, within reason. I believe there are some specialized skills that should only be obtained from specific areas, for example the titan book, maybe even t2 ship books. This would greatly increase players skill knowledge (Hell, I didn't even know about fast talk until last year, and I have played since 2005. I wish I was kidding when I say this) And open up more opportunities for training paths.

Although, with this addition, there would need to be a 'hide skills' option, as a PvP'er like myself will never have any use for ANY industry skills, and I would not want my skillsheet cluttered with them.

Edit- The guy above me is what I was talking about, specially seeded books.
Meytal
Doomheim
#30 - 2013-05-31 14:28:04 UTC
The "Inject skill at Prereq Level -1" sounds like the best compromise and might not be that big of a stretch for coding changes. You still have to put in some work to get to level-1 and can't spend the character's first day of life in a school hub injecting everything, and skill books are still something useful to carry around. You also still have to train the prereq to the right level before you can train the injected skill.

The compromise from the player point of view would be that injecting a skill is no longer sufficient to protect against prereq changes. No more injecting a skill before the prereqs change "just in case" you want to use it later (for example, Freighters); you actually have to spend some time to train it, or just wait and get it later.
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
#31 - 2013-05-31 15:05:57 UTC
CCP Fear wrote:
Zor'katar wrote:
Sirran The Lunatic wrote:
The concept of skillbooks becomes kind of pointless. Think of it: "Hey, did you sit in Jita for 4hours and buy/inject every single skillbook yet?"

It'd be just a monotonous proccess which we'd end up doing, not out of neccessity... but out of the convenience of being able to buy and inject all skills, it becomes inconvenient to sit there and buy/inject allt he skills.

I pretty much agree with this.

Sirran The Lunatic wrote:
So instead make a skill injectable/queue-able when the level 5 pre-req is in the training queue and remove it if they remove the pre-req from the queue.

Not a terrible idea, but I could see it being potentially buggy. The idea I like best so far is queuing up the injection of the book. It's not without its own issues, though... you'd need to require that when the time comes, the pilot and book are both in the same station, and that could cause some frustration with people who don't quite understand how it works.


I agree. The consequence will be that you could basically sit in a station, inject all skills and then be free. Then I start to wonder if then having skills on the market and as an item is even relevant anymore. Then we could just allow you to buy them directly in the sheet when you would need them.....


There is some market in skills that could be worth preserving. Not all skills are equally accessible in all regions. IIRC there is no NPC in Domain that sell advance projectile related skills, and some people in those regions might have problems travelling to minmatar space for standings reasons.

This opens opportunity for payer driven secondary skill market. Fore example first few months I played EvE I earned some ISK by importing minmatar skills and blueprints to Amarr space. Of course this type of game-play would be impossible if you could buy and inject your skills anywhere directly from character sheet.

Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows...
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#32 - 2013-05-31 15:33:19 UTC
CCP Fear wrote:
This has come up quite often in the past years.

We have recently started doing some research into skill training and this is something we are very keen on doing.

My only concern would be some unforeseen consequences to changing this. I can't see many, but it is a slight concern.

The basic idea of how it would work is that all skills could be injected, regardless of the pre-req being met. You would, however, not be able to train it until you had met the pre-req (obviously).

There are some technical things that need to be solved (logic checks and things like that).

If you can think of any reason if this would have harmful consequences, post them here!

I don't see any "harmful consequences", also, the argument of "carrying" is void, since you can't unplug the book and sell it to return the investment.
The only issue that needs to be evaluated is adding skills to queue, while they are not meeting the prerequisites. I.e. adding such skill right after the prerequisite in the queue. This may, potentially, induce a race condition, where prerequisite is removed from queue, but the next skill can't be trained, as the prerequisite is not yet registered in character sheet.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Falaricae
Proffessional Experts Group
#33 - 2013-05-31 15:56:23 UTC
CCP Fear wrote:
Zor'katar wrote:
Sirran The Lunatic wrote:
The concept of skillbooks becomes kind of pointless. Think of it: "Hey, did you sit in Jita for 4hours and buy/inject every single skillbook yet?"

It'd be just a monotonous proccess which we'd end up doing, not out of neccessity... but out of the convenience of being able to buy and inject all skills, it becomes inconvenient to sit there and buy/inject allt he skills.

I pretty much agree with this.

Sirran The Lunatic wrote:
So instead make a skill injectable/queue-able when the level 5 pre-req is in the training queue and remove it if they remove the pre-req from the queue.

Not a terrible idea, but I could see it being potentially buggy. The idea I like best so far is queuing up the injection of the book. It's not without its own issues, though... you'd need to require that when the time comes, the pilot and book are both in the same station, and that could cause some frustration with people who don't quite understand how it works.


I agree. The consequence will be that you could basically sit in a station, inject all skills and then be free. Then I start to wonder if then having skills on the market and as an item is even relevant anymore. Then we could just allow you to buy them directly in the sheet when you would need them.

I'm also not sure if there is a great benefit in introducing an even more complex rule set in injection as it is now.

Definitely some interesting edge cases and caveats that come with this.

Be aware, that if you remove skill books as concrete trading items, you will be giving the middle finger to a lot of people trading and hauling them and be accused of dumbing down the game once more. Not everything that can potentially cause a bit of inconvenience to a segment of the playerbase is something you need to try to get rid of. Proper logistics is important in this game and a lot of people use it to make a living and therefore don't appreciate you removing parts of it, especially for a minor thing like this. Just saying don't expect universal jubilation, if you decide to take your "fix" of this issue to the logical conclusions some players are expressing.
brinelan
#34 - 2013-05-31 16:37:47 UTC  |  Edited by: brinelan
I don't like the idea of buying skills from the sheet, however I have run in to the situation many times just like the op where you need to finish that last little bit of skill 1 to inject skill 2 but that falls at a time when you wont be able to log in.

To keep it simple, allow the 1 inject when the prereq is less then 24 hours away and if something changes and the prereq dosent finish then the book stays in your cargohold. make it so the skill needs to be in your hanger or cargohold in order for the skillqueue to even allow it to be added as an auto inject. From there, allow the skill 2 to act like skills do now so we can queue up however many levels you can fit in the queue.

I can see this change being more if a quality of life tweak to cut down on a minor annoyance more then anything.

Allowing free reign on injects without prereqs I can see being turned in to a "mandatory step" just like learning skills were "mandatory" by so many people when in reality it was a detriment to newer players.
Scorpion Venom1
Molestation Nation.
#35 - 2013-05-31 17:06:03 UTC
set injected, but unlearned skillbooks as "temporary implants" for slot 11-14 to keep a hard limit on the amount of books able to inject.

have it so a book can only be injected when all pre-reqs are within say 48 hours of completion.

when podded pre injected skillbooks show up on the killmail!

bonus options; pre-injected skillbooks havea drop rate
lost skills when podded show up on killmails


its going to be hilarious when that full slave set + pashans turret mindlink pod gets killed with a pre-injected titan skillbook, with a JDC 5 skill loss Twisted
Daedalus II
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2013-05-31 17:14:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Daedalus II
How about this:

Skill A requires Skill B and Skill C.

Skill A can be injected as soon as both Skill B and Skill C has at least 1 skill point (or level) in them. That is; you have to start the training of all depending skills before you can inject the skill.

This should give the opportunity to inject skills well before they are needed, but NOT be able to inject ALL skills as many of them will rely on skills that you can't get skill points into until you have trained THEIR prereqs, and so on.

Edit: Damn, Scorpion beat me by 8 minutes :p
Kel hound
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2013-05-31 17:23:32 UTC
Scorpion Venom1 wrote:
set injected, but unlearned skillbooks as "temporary implants" for slot 11-14 to keep a hard limit on the amount of books able to inject



This one actually sounds the most reasonable to me. It's simple, straight forward and keeps the consequences to your action. Want to pre-inject some books? Go right ahead! But if you lose your pod then you lose the books. As a wormhole resident I like this idea a lot.
Kusanagi Kasuga
Indigo Archive
Ivy League Alt Alliance
#38 - 2013-05-31 17:47:50 UTC
CCP Fear wrote:
Mag's wrote:
CCP Fear wrote:
This has come up quite often in the past years.

We have recently started doing some research into skill training and this is something we are very keen on doing.

My only concern would be some unforeseen consequences to changing this. I can't see many, but it is a slight concern.

The basic idea of how it would work is that all skills could be injected, regardless of the pre-req being met. You would, however, not be able to train it until you had met the pre-req (obviously).

There are some technical things that need to be solved (logic checks and things like that).

If you can think of any reason if this would have harmful consequences, post them here!
I can't think of any tbh. But someone once suggested there should be some sort of consequence to allow this. They felt that being able to inject a skill and move it without the chance of loss, goes against the grain so to speak. I do see their point.


Yeah that was the only thing that I could think of.

But one has to weigh if allowing to inject all skills is a better experience rather than allowing the destruction of skills (which then has a negative effect on that player experience).

I am more inclined to say that it should be fine to allow you to inject the skills, as you can't reverse that. And that skill destruction would continue to happen when skills are being transported en mass (for example into null sec).


I would say that if you allow currently untrainable skills to be injected, without any restriction on the time-to-trainable, then you're going to get people who inject Titan skills and only then realise they can't actually fly that this side of forever.
Either put in a calculation for maximum time-to-trainable (eg, if you couldn't start training in the next 7 days, no inject) - or pop up a message that tells them how long until they could train this skill, and make it very clear it's not reversable. I would recommend the maximum time-to-trainable, personally, since people will still not read the message and screw it up.
Saithe
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#39 - 2013-05-31 17:57:25 UTC
I personally like the 'slot 11-15' idea. I foresee the 'laymans code' to go something like this:

Caldari Cruiser in slot 11, Caldari Frigate training from 3 to 4. Apply Caldari Cruiser to the queue AFTER caldari frigate, using slot 11. Once Caldari Frigate 4 is trained, Slot 11 is consumed applying Caldari Cruiser to the queue and training it to 1 (unable to train it further until its plugged in).

The only problem with coding this that I can tell would be how to apply the skills to an implant slot, as implants have specific slots already assigned. However, you COULD create a 'new' implant set for 11-15 that works similar to the training queue, in that 'skillbook++' instead of applying a slot # to the books. This would create a unique coding challenge, however assigning slot #'s to specific book types (for example, ship books slot 11, gunnery 12, etc etc) would limit the potential abuse.
Saberlily Whyteshadow
Perkone
Caldari State
#40 - 2013-05-31 18:32:21 UTC
I say implement a 1 second "Auto Inject" que slot into the skill que.

To do this you would just drag and drop the skill book from your inventory into the skill que list. So when the "Auto Inject" que comes up for training, it will then work like it does now when you right click the skill book and pick "Inject skill." The actual skill book must be in your inventory or cargo hold of any ships in your current station. Auto Inject is only for injecting skill books as a way for the skill que to manage skill injecting.

To que up the skill levels you drag and drop the skill book into the skill que after the "Auto Inject' que to que up that books skill levels. For this to work, it would have to look for the "Auto Inject" que and use that as its current prerequisite.

Example, I have about 4hrs left on Rockets V and want to que up Rocket Specialization after it. I would do the above steps and get something like this in my skill que:

(Example with guesstimated time)

Training: Rockets Level V - 4hr
Que: Auto Inject: Rocket Specialization skill book - 1sec
Que: Rocket Specialization level I - 8min
Que: Rocket Specialization level II - 30min
Que: Rocket Specialization level III - 5hr
Que: Rocket Specialization level IV - 2days
(24hr que limit)

This method would allow us to still respect the current skill que and que up skill not yet injected.