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[IDEA] Adding untrained skills to queue

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Saithe
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-05-28 21:55:12 UTC
I have large projectile turret 5 finishing in 4 hours. I would love to be able to apply the SKILLBOOK for Large Autocannon Spec itself to the queue to automatically plug in and train to 1 after LPT5 finishes. I've already got MAcS4, so all that remains is LPT5.

If I were to stop LPT5 for any reason, then LAcS would be removed, and the skill never injected. Thoughts?
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#2 - 2013-05-28 22:01:02 UTC
Saithe wrote:
I have large projectile turret 5 finishing in 4 hours. I would love to be able to apply the SKILLBOOK for Large Autocannon Spec itself to the queue to automatically plug in and train to 1 after LPT5 finishes. I've already got MAcS4, so all that remains is LPT5.

If I were to stop LPT5 for any reason, then LAcS would be removed, and the skill never injected. Thoughts?

Just put a filler skill after LPT5 that you'll then swap for Spec skill. Filler should be a skill that you want to train sometime afterwards so you wont waste time.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
Saithe
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-05-28 22:01:50 UTC
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
Saithe wrote:
I have large projectile turret 5 finishing in 4 hours. I would love to be able to apply the SKILLBOOK for Large Autocannon Spec itself to the queue to automatically plug in and train to 1 after LPT5 finishes. I've already got MAcS4, so all that remains is LPT5.

If I were to stop LPT5 for any reason, then LAcS would be removed, and the skill never injected. Thoughts?

Just put a filler skill after LPT5 that you'll then swap for Spec skill. Filler should be a skill that you want to train sometime afterwards so you wont waste time.


That's what I already do, but :effort:
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#4 - 2013-05-28 22:05:09 UTC
Wait for next expansion when devs will lower entry point of mastering skill queue and give us all skills at very beginning. Even those with level V prereqs. Expansion theme will be knowledge and it will be called Renaissance.

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Saithe
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5 - 2013-05-28 22:57:55 UTC
Figured it wouldn't be too hard to implement, so why not. we have the training queue anyway, why not make it worth something other than just ordering up skills
BlakPhoenix
Load Up Blast Everything
DARKNESS.
#6 - 2013-05-29 00:50:13 UTC
I agree that it's a silly limitation to not be able to queue an injection and have to place some filler skill until you can next login. You should be able to queue the injection and training of a skill so long as you have all the prerequisites finished (or will be finished) by the time in the queue you are trying to add the skill at. We've all had to wait for a few hours/day because we couldn't get on the second a skill finishes to inject the next one in the train and it's just not very good design.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#7 - 2013-05-29 11:57:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
+1. I've experienced this and it's quite annoying I have to say. This would definitely be a QoL improvement.

Supported by me.

EDIT: However as everything requires balance:

If you queued a Skill to train after a pre-req e.g. Exhumers after Astrogeology 5 but then subsequently cancelled that Skill Plan that skill should still be injected even if untrained. This would add some risk=reward and balance the QoL enhancement.

For instance you have the Exhumers skill queued but you lose your ship before the pre-req has finished and the Exhumers skill has 0SP accrued against it. That skill is worth 28mil and you're flat broke. You cancel the training intending to sell the skill to get you a nice new shiny ship but wait...you can't as it's been injected and is now accountable to your account, d'oh!

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Saithe
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-05-29 17:49:21 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:

If you queued a Skill to train after a pre-req e.g. Exhumers after Astrogeology 5 but then subsequently cancelled that Skill Plan that skill should still be injected even if untrained. This would add some risk=reward and balance the QoL enhancement.


My vision has 2 possibilities, 1 being a lot more forgiving than the other.

Scenario:
You are fresh to the game, sitting in your brand new kestrel. You have frigate 3 trained, and someone suggests that you look in to getting a caracal. After some research, you discover that to fly the caracal, you will need to get frigate 4 before you can plug the cruiser skill in. Here are the options:

CURRENTLY: Train frigate 4, then after it completes inject cruiser and train it to 1.

Option 1) Queue up frigate 4, place injection in queue AFTER frigate 4 will finish (in say, 23 hours), allowing the cruiser skill to be automatically injected. IF FOR ANY REASON FRIGATE IS REMOVED, THE INJECTION IS REMOVED FROM THE QUEUE, AND THE BOOK PLACED BACK IN YOUR HANGAR.

Option 2) Same as above, however if frigate is removed before level 4 finishes, you lose the injected skill permanently (until you replace it).

The 2nd option can be a lot harsher on diverting from the skill queue, but prevents abuse and code overload. Another balancing aspect would be something along the lines of "The skill queue can only handle 1 injection per 24 hours."
Saithe
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#9 - 2013-05-30 19:42:10 UTC
Further thoughts?
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#10 - 2013-05-30 22:51:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
Saithe wrote:
The 2nd option can be a lot harsher on diverting from the skill queue, but prevents abuse and code overload. Another balancing aspect would be something along the lines of "The skill queue can only handle 1 injection per 24 hours."


Damn, I thought I was being harsh! I wouldn't like the option above to be honest, it's just a little too harsh but I think what I suggested is a good idea (obviously). You wanted to train that skill but you changed your mind for whatever reason but cause and consequence is the name of EVE so you can carry that Skill Book in your Skill Sheet but you can't train it until you have done the pre-requisites. Maybe a thing to add would be you can only do this if you are 1 Level away from the Pre-reqs.

An example: Imagine if you will a BPO that is purchased on market. You queue it for Time Research but have to wait a week for a slot. In the time before it starts it's Research you need it to build something. You cancel the Research and forfeit the fee you paid. That BPO cannot be sold on the Market now as it's been "opened\unpackaged" and so must be sold via Contract. Risk = Reward.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
BlakPhoenix
Load Up Blast Everything
DARKNESS.
#11 - 2013-05-31 00:14:10 UTC
bump
CCP Fear
C C P
C C P Alliance
#12 - 2013-05-31 11:10:41 UTC
This has come up quite often in the past years.

We have recently started doing some research into skill training and this is something we are very keen on doing.

My only concern would be some unforeseen consequences to changing this. I can't see many, but it is a slight concern.

The basic idea of how it would work is that all skills could be injected, regardless of the pre-req being met. You would, however, not be able to train it until you had met the pre-req (obviously).

There are some technical things that need to be solved (logic checks and things like that).

If you can think of any reason if this would have harmful consequences, post them here!
Mag's
Azn Empire
#13 - 2013-05-31 11:24:35 UTC
CCP Fear wrote:
This has come up quite often in the past years.

We have recently started doing some research into skill training and this is something we are very keen on doing.

My only concern would be some unforeseen consequences to changing this. I can't see many, but it is a slight concern.

The basic idea of how it would work is that all skills could be injected, regardless of the pre-req being met. You would, however, not be able to train it until you had met the pre-req (obviously).

There are some technical things that need to be solved (logic checks and things like that).

If you can think of any reason if this would have harmful consequences, post them here!
I can't think of any tbh. But someone once suggested there should be some sort of consequence to allow this. They felt that being able to inject a skill and move it without the chance of loss, goes against the grain so to speak. I do see their point.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
CCP Fear
C C P
C C P Alliance
#14 - 2013-05-31 11:38:39 UTC
Mag's wrote:
CCP Fear wrote:
This has come up quite often in the past years.

We have recently started doing some research into skill training and this is something we are very keen on doing.

My only concern would be some unforeseen consequences to changing this. I can't see many, but it is a slight concern.

The basic idea of how it would work is that all skills could be injected, regardless of the pre-req being met. You would, however, not be able to train it until you had met the pre-req (obviously).

There are some technical things that need to be solved (logic checks and things like that).

If you can think of any reason if this would have harmful consequences, post them here!
I can't think of any tbh. But someone once suggested there should be some sort of consequence to allow this. They felt that being able to inject a skill and move it without the chance of loss, goes against the grain so to speak. I do see their point.


Yeah that was the only thing that I could think of.

But one has to weigh if allowing to inject all skills is a better experience rather than allowing the destruction of skills (which then has a negative effect on that player experience).

I am more inclined to say that it should be fine to allow you to inject the skills, as you can't reverse that. And that skill destruction would continue to happen when skills are being transported en mass (for example into null sec).
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
#15 - 2013-05-31 11:48:50 UTC
I'm glad you're looking into this, CCP Fear. I'm not sure about technical limitations, but what if adding a skill to the skill queue didn't automatically inject the skills? All it would have to do (I think) is make sure that the skill is in your item hangar, and then when the current skill finishes it injects and begins training?

I'm sure that this probably isn't possible or reasonable and it will have something to do with the code. I am curious as to why, though!

Save the drones!
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#16 - 2013-05-31 11:51:53 UTC
Perhaps a limit on the number of "pre-injected" skills. So that you can inject a skill you don't meet the requirements for, but only up to a certain number. Say... three, for example. You could inject any three skills you don't meet the prerequisites for, but until you free up a space by making one trainable, you can't "pre-inject" any others.
Dave Stark
#17 - 2013-05-31 12:00:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
CCP Fear wrote:
If you can think of any reason if this would have harmful consequences, post them here!


erm, all of the ship skill changes you're introducing in odyssey? or would it only apply to injected skills, and not skills already trained to I? as such, what would happen if i was podded and lost all of my SP in that skill and no longer had the prereqs due to them being changed?

think: command ships. that's probably the best example.
Khamelean
Bricks in the Sky
#18 - 2013-05-31 12:15:09 UTC
CCP Fear wrote:


Yeah that was the only thing that I could think of.

But one has to weigh if allowing to inject all skills is a better experience rather than allowing the destruction of skills (which then has a negative effect on that player experience).

I am more inclined to say that it should be fine to allow you to inject the skills, as you can't reverse that. And that skill destruction would continue to happen when skills are being transported en mass (for example into null sec).


Perhaps as a compromise, if you are podded then any skill books that are injected but not trained would be lost and need to be re-injected.

This allows greater flexibility for players planning their queues, but also offers a deterrent to players injecting the next years worth of skill books at once.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2013-05-31 12:17:34 UTC
Why not allow you to add the skill to the queue immediately after the last prereq, and it will auto inject once the prereqs are met?
If you pod moves to where it can't access the skillbook, the training moves to the next skill queued, if any.

Ie: I want to inject large energy turret, I have gunnery V about to finish (lets assume I already have medium energy turret high enough) within 24 hours, I drag and drop the skillbook onto the queue after gunnery V, it flags it as not having prereqs met, but then I select "autoinject if prereqs are met". For safety, I put another skill behind the auto inject queued one.

If I immediately log off... when Gunnery V finishes, my skill book injects, and it trains the first level (and 2nd or third if so queued)
If I then move to a different station and don't take the book with me, then auto inject fails.

Allowing one to inject, but not train the skills if the pre reqs aren't met could potentially cause some problems with the other skill tree changes.

Imagine someone with Cruiser IV, that stupidly didn't train BC to V or even IV, but trained BS to III.
After this change, as they'd lack the proper BC level, they might not be able to train BS IV.

Unless you have different prereqs for each skill level.

ie, you need gunnery V to train large energy I, but to train large energy II, you need large energy I.
Right now, I think no such system exists, and the pre-req check only occurs when you try and inject the skill.
Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#20 - 2013-05-31 12:29:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Onomerous
CCP Fear wrote:
This has come up quite often in the past years.

We have recently started doing some research into skill training and this is something we are very keen on doing.

My only concern would be some unforeseen consequences to changing this. I can't see many, but it is a slight concern.

The basic idea of how it would work is that all skills could be injected, regardless of the pre-req being met. You would, however, not be able to train it until you had met the pre-req (obviously).

There are some technical things that need to be solved (logic checks and things like that).

If you can think of any reason if this would have harmful consequences, post them here!


A voice of reason with bold for emphasis. +1 though
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