Ships & Modules

Do you even read the posts you quote? I wasn't referring to the Rapier/Loki or Arazu/Proteus comparison because in those cases, the balance between them is perfectly fine. They do the specified role worse whilst offering better overall survivability - exactly as it should be.
Scenarios where they outperform their T2 counterpart need to be fixed.

And the Astarte is a T2 Battlecruiser, so of course it should completely curbstomp a Proteus in its designated role.



Yes - they should do them a lot worse - in those cases the balance is right.



Yes - exactly. Obviously, the tradeoff isn't that bad - last time I checked a webbing Loki wasn't an uncommon sight, so the tradeoff apparently is woth it.

From Zero you're right - if you have some basic skills the time it takes to train a T3 subsystem is shorter - and in that case, it would only be the electronic subsystem to V, assuming you want to purely use it to probe.
Anyway - it doesn't change the fact that (probe flight time aside) a Legion will provide stronger probing results than an Anathema because they have the same bonus to scan strength but the Legion can fit another Gravity Capacitor Upgrade.

At the same time it offers better survivabilty because on top of being cov ops cloaked, it can be interdiction nullified and as opposed to the Anathema, it survives most smartbombing camps



Depending on the fit, The Legion will have twice the tank with better base speed, it won't neut quite as much because the energy parasitic complex bonus is smaller than the Pilgrims but if Blaster-fitted, it will out-DPS a Pilgrim. The Pilgrim has a TD bonus, which isn't bad, but all in all, I'd say the Legion still comes out on top - and that's the worst T3 with a cloaky subsystem that is (rightfully) considered a joke.

I like your examples - they are good examples of well-balanced T3s - and as a matter of fact I did provide examples - T3 boosters being better than CS (yeah I know - getting fixed), T3s stronger at scanning than covops frigs, the Tengu outperforming Caldari HACs in almost every aspect (granted, more of a problem with Caldari HACs than with the Tengu itself), The Legion being a better HAM-Brawler than the Sac etc...

They don't need much work and some (logi subsystems) might even need a buff, but there should be no case of a T3 outperforming a T2 cruiser in it's specified role. Much of the current issues could be fixed by removing two rig slots from T3 hulls.

I'd prefer CCP to look at them after they rebalanced T2 cruisers though.

All I'm getting out of the OP's post is "Blah blah blah - I got owned by a T3 cruiser so I'm going to go cry about it on the forums - blah blah blah".

Seriously. There's enough good posts in here already explaining to you in babysteps why T3's are fine. I just wanted to reinorce the point that the OP is an idiot.

You're right. Some T3 subsystems are broken. Let's start by buffing the Neuting subsystem on the legion and the split weapon subsystem on the loki. Then we'll talk.

I haven't read through and have absolutely no intention of doing so, so i apologize if i make a suggestion that someone has already put forward: But personally, whatever changes they make to tech 3, one of the first and foremost should be to fix the Cloaky+Nullified tech 3 problem.

I propose that one of the following happen:

Either A) Remove the ability of tech 3 ships to have both covert ops AND interdiction nullification (perhaps by making the subs use the same slot i.e. offensive of propulsion etc...)

or B) reduce the agility of tech 3

A tech 3 cruiser with covert ops and nullify are for all intents and purposes, Invulnerable. And i'm not talking about during combat, the issue here is that if someone jumps through a gate in a cloaky/nullified tech 3 there is absolutely no way to stop them UNLESS they make a mistake. They align and warp so fast that even when you get a decloak, the time spent not being able to lock them while they cloaked up and aligned is enough that they will still warp away, especially coupled with the delay between locking a ship and your warp disruptors/scramblers activating.

The only current way to actually stop a competent pilot in one of these ships is either extreme amounts of luck: For example, their ship decloaks right next to yours (in which case, the time during which they are unlockable because they are cloaking up, is probably enough for them to align and then warp before you can get the decloak in and then lock them as well, rendering an inty or some other high scan res ship, the only way to actually get a tackle) OR to surround a gate with containers/drones etc... thus preventing their ability to cloak up (which is considered an exploit) which brings us back round to the beginning statement that these ships, manned by a competent pilot are totally invulnerable if they wish to be. And no ship, should ever be invulnerable in eve

Not even close. Tengu is extremely overpowered.

To make this clear: this is an issue with HACs, not T3s.

BTW, to those saying a command ship comparison is not valid since it's a T2 BC vs a T3 cruiser and BC should be better than a cruiser, sure, but first nerf all command ships so they get curb stomped by T1 BSs right?

You are doing something wrong. You should be getting much higher DPS on both ships.

[Tengu, level 5]
Ballistic Control System II
Domination Ballistic Control System
Domination Ballistic Control System
Domination Ballistic Control System

Pithi A-Type Small Shield Booster
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Dread Guristas Shield Boost Amplifier
Thermic Dissipation Field II
EM Ward Field II
EM Ward Field II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
(trained heavy missiles, and dislike the tiny range even javelin HAMs get.)

Medium Warhead Calefaction Catalyst I
Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst I
Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst I
(Cap stable at 39%)

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Gravitational Capacitor
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir


Fuel Catalyst is normal, and would be used if there was an extra mid slot. The lack of drones on the ship made a Target Painter much too appealing to deal with obnoxious frigates that manage to get within the painter range of 45k optimal and 90 falloff. Shield resistance modules switched where needed, but minimal tank is 540 effective HP/s with 477 DPS if using T1 missiles (usually do, cheaper), but 643 dps with Fury Missiles if fighting battleships/elites. This is assuming level 5 skills where relevant (which why would anyone bother flying pricey ships without the skills to properly use them.)

Nighthawk, all level 5 relevant: 525 min effective HP/s with 446 minimum dps (hobgoblin 1s used here, as well as t1 missiles). 600 dps with hobgoblin 2s and Scourge Fury.


[Nighthawk, level 5 dps]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Beta Reactor Control: Shield Power Relay I
Beta Reactor Control: Shield Power Relay I

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Shield Recharger II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
EM Ward Field II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
Drone Link Augmentor I

Medium Core Defense Field Purger II
Medium Core Defense Field Purger II


Hobgoblin I x5


Optionally, it's tanking or dps can be improved, at the cost of either or. Tried an active fit and was not impressed.

Additional: have not worked out the price since refitting in EFT with less naval/pirate issue modules. Once I saw the reason to use Missile Launcher 2s instead of caldari navy launchers, that likely knocked off 2-3 hundred million from the price.