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Why is there no way for us to attack supply lines in eve?

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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#281 - 2013-05-30 15:19:53 UTC
Xavier Liche wrote:
Don't allow high sec jump landings, make them jump to low then run on normal engines through high sec



That's a great idea. I went back in time to 2004 and made it work like that. So now it does!

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Stonecrusher Mortlock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#282 - 2013-05-30 15:20:33 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
Malcanis wrote:



So in short, you think it's OK for hi-sec manufacturing to be massively advantaged for lore/fluff reasons?

I mean even with the lore reason you cite, yes the Empires built those stations; that doesn't mean that they're eager to let pod pilots use them essentially for free. (IIRC it costs about 2000 ISK to make a 230 million ISK Maelstrom, which is such a small fee that it's effectively free)

What if they suddenly decide that they need to recoup that investment, because after all, there is a war on, and raise slot use prices to reflect the market value of the facility? OK so now you have to pay 23 million ISK to use an NPC station to make a Maelstrom. How about that? 10% seems like a pretty reasonable cut for that convenience and safety, and after all, you do have the option of using a POS manufacturing array instead.





Just so you know, i started a thread many months ago about nurfing high-secs limitless ability to do production, but that was along side CCPs POS change's so, blame CCP, a lot of your concerns can be fixed by a POS re-wright being on the CSM why don't you go get them to do that?


Go be the guy that gets CCP TO FIX POS's and be are hero.


I would dearly love to be that guy. However, it's been made pretty clear that no one on CSM8 is going to be.




Then burn everything in till it is.










Malcanis wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:


The method I suggested in the other thread was to make it so cynos no longer appear on the overview, but jump drives are no longer able to jump straight into a POS bubble or onto a station. Also maybe some travel time could be added when jumping. Yes this would affect my current gameplay and make it harder, but to be honest I feel as I am being forced into a boring mechanic anyway so that is why I don't mind.


You already can't cyno into a POS bubble.

I feel like this "fix" to logistics is a solution looking for a problem. If 0.0 industry isn't competitive with hi-sec industry (it isn't) then the proper course of action is to correct the imbalance, not nerf logistics because nullsec players are (rightly) reluctant to do industry under such heavy handicaps.

Once the TCP of 0.0 and hi-sec are fairly close to each other, then the issue of logistics between 0.0 and hisec becomes moot.



And then, we are still at the starting point of this thread, your logistic back bone will still revolve around instantly jumping between stations, that cant be removed or threatened in any meaningful way with out a massive fleet.


RIGHT NOW, unless you have a super involved fleet, the FC's and the isk you cant have any impact on null-sec besides making a nuance of your self.

Its impossible to fight a guerrilla type war, attacking there back lines disrupting there efforts to resupply the main fighting force.

I mean, we have in eve the equivalent of China being able to instantly transport there entire armed forces directly on top of DC, and then INSTANTLY resupplying them the moment they need it. there's NO WAY besides having a larger instantly resupplied armed forces to defeat that.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#283 - 2013-05-30 15:21:23 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:


The method I suggested in the other thread was to make it so cynos no longer appear on the overview, but jump drives are no longer able to jump straight into a POS bubble or onto a station. Also maybe some travel time could be added when jumping. Yes this would affect my current gameplay and make it harder, but to be honest I feel as I am being forced into a boring mechanic anyway so that is why I don't mind.


You already can't cyno into a POS bubble.

I feel like this "fix" to logistics is a solution looking for a problem. If 0.0 industry isn't competitive with hi-sec industry (it isn't) then the proper course of action is to correct the imbalance, not nerf logistics because nullsec players are (rightly) reluctant to do industry under such heavy handicaps.

Once the TCP of 0.0 and hi-sec are fairly close to each other, then the issue of logistics between 0.0 and hisec becomes moot.

Who gives a crap about industry? We want the ability to blow up ships carting billions in cargo.. If we blow it up then stuff gets more expensive, meaning you make profit anyway off someone else's losses. Well as long as your smart and don't get blown up yourself.

We're not playing Excel Spreadsheets Online, we're playing Blowing Up Spaceships Online... its just EvE for short cuse BUSO sounds Japanese

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Gustaf Heleneto
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#284 - 2013-05-30 15:22:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Gustaf Heleneto
Adeh Gamalar wrote:


Quote:

Another obstacle for pos manufacturing is organizational. Roles are a mess and there really isn't a good way to allow people to manufacture in POSes without adding risk of corporate theft.


Risk?! Theft?! In my eve? Surely not! Blink


Quote:

Add to that the hassle of transporting materials from your home station to refine at the refinery 3 jumps away and then back to the POS for manufacturing, when a single station in high sec can do it all and more...on top of the fact that you have to keep it secure and refuel constantly. A large POS costs 400millons every month to fuel. You can manufacturer he same amount of stuff a large pos pumps out at a high sec station for line fees and jump fuel and you won't spend 400mil a month. It's just the smart choice right now. Less risk, less hassle, higher efficiency.


I agree with all of that. It does make more sense to manufacture in highsec with the current system.

Which brings us to ...


Gustaf Heleneto wrote:

And the same was true BEFORE jump capable ships. But people STILL manufacture in high and shipped to null.


I'm not sure this is entirely representative (didn't POSes used to be far less useful at that time?) but even if it is it just goes to show that null does not rely on easy logistics to highsec.

Basically, my point is that if null can already be self-sufficient, and it can, it doesn't need the highsec link. It just wants it because it makes life easier. And if people will still ship stuff to null (which I suspect they wouldn't if compression was removed along with an easy pipeline) without easy logistics then great - danger, conflict and player interaction will abound.



Just so we're clear on my position, I think espionage is one of, if not THE coolest part of Eve Online!

I wasn't saying it is the sole reason to not manufacture in nullsec, just in of the many obstacles that have to be overcome just to produce half of what you could produce in high sec.

To your point: yes, nullsec was sustained before jump capable ships. People lived and operated in various places. But that was a long time ago! Since the creation of jump capable ships participation in 0.0 has increased! Make it harder to live in nullsec and you are just going to force people out. Sure, you can shoot supply convoys now, but good luck finding one after the chunk of people move back to empire. Also, finding a fight in null might seem tough now, wait until ship supply is down, people will fly their thoraxes like that are blinged out proteuses!

Again, writing from my phone, excuse spelling errors and such. Ultimately I feel hunting down a freight fleet and welping it would be cool, but a nerf to logistics would bring more negatives than that one positive.
Stonecrusher Mortlock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#285 - 2013-05-30 15:27:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Stonecrusher Mortlock
Malcanis wrote:


I'm not averse to a look at the way jump ships work, but it's an absolute imperative that 0.0 production be fixed first. There can be no compromise on that.





If you can build it all in null sec, and can still JF/Bridge everything around, you still have the same problem we started with.



you cant fix one with out fixing the other AT THE SAME TIME.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#286 - 2013-05-30 15:29:31 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:


The method I suggested in the other thread was to make it so cynos no longer appear on the overview, but jump drives are no longer able to jump straight into a POS bubble or onto a station. Also maybe some travel time could be added when jumping. Yes this would affect my current gameplay and make it harder, but to be honest I feel as I am being forced into a boring mechanic anyway so that is why I don't mind.


You already can't cyno into a POS bubble.

I feel like this "fix" to logistics is a solution looking for a problem. If 0.0 industry isn't competitive with hi-sec industry (it isn't) then the proper course of action is to correct the imbalance, not nerf logistics because nullsec players are (rightly) reluctant to do industry under such heavy handicaps.

Once the TCP of 0.0 and hi-sec are fairly close to each other, then the issue of logistics between 0.0 and hisec becomes moot.

Who gives a crap about industry? We want the ability to blow up ships carting billions in cargo.. If we blow it up then stuff gets more expensive, meaning you make profit anyway off someone else's losses. Well as long as your smart and don't get blown up yourself.

We're not playing Excel Spreadsheets Online, we're playing Blowing Up Spaceships Online... its just EvE for short cuse BUSO sounds Japanese


Indeed you do. But no one is going to fly hauler trains about the place for you to blow up just because they like you. They're going to go to all that effort and expense and risk only if it's more profitable to do so. It's not anymore and it never will be again.

Sorry if that's not what you want to hear but life is hard sometimes.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#287 - 2013-05-30 15:29:59 UTC
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


I'm not averse to a look at the way jump ships work, but it's an absolute imperative that 0.0 production be fixed first. There can be no compromise on that.





If you can build it all in null sec, and can still JF/Bridge everything around, you still have the same problem we started with.



you cant fix one with out fixing the other AT THE SAME TIME.


And that problem is...?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#288 - 2013-05-30 15:35:48 UTC
Xavier Liche wrote:
Don't allow high sec jump landings, make them jump to low then run on normal engines through high sec



Okay try lighting a cyno in highsec

We'll wait

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#289 - 2013-05-30 15:35:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Abrazzar
Hello, people, it's me, Abrazzar! And it's silly idea time!
[you may have read something like this before]

  • Cyno generators now come in three sizes: small, medium and large for frigate, cruiser and battleship.
  • Jumping through a cyno require a certain coherence of the cyno, depending on your ship, which will destabilize the cyno by that amount.
  • Cyno generators create a certain amount of coherence up to a maximum per cycle, depending on size
  • Fuel cost per cycle will be reduced proportionate to the lower cycle time, but you'll still be stuck in place with a bacon on your head.
  • Recons get a bonus on coherence generated and probably maximum coherence to surpass even large cynos with their medium one.
  • Jump bridges and cyno generators get a similar treatment, though they will have a much greater coherence.

So a noob ship with a cyno will most likely get popped on a hotdrop attempt before anything worthwhile can get through. Better bait with a tank. Power projection will require appropriate amount of cynos proportionate to the power you want to project (this may be inadequate as 'fix').


No more mix with liquid ozone, stir, instant blob!

No more universally usable noob ship cyno alts!

No more wasting ten minutes worth of ozone on a single jump!
[hey, wait a moment, that's a boost]


Alright, alright, I shut up, don't hate me (too much).

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#290 - 2013-05-30 15:39:23 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Who gives a crap about industry? We want the ability to blow up ships carting billions in cargo.. If we blow it up then stuff gets more expensive, meaning you make profit anyway off someone else's losses. Well as long as your smart and don't get blown up yourself.

We're not playing Excel Spreadsheets Online, we're playing Blowing Up Spaceships Online... its just EvE for short cuse BUSO sounds Japanese

*12 year old detected*
Stonecrusher Mortlock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#291 - 2013-05-30 15:41:54 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


I'm not averse to a look at the way jump ships work, but it's an absolute imperative that 0.0 production be fixed first. There can be no compromise on that.





If you can build it all in null sec, and can still JF/Bridge everything around, you still have the same problem we started with.



you cant fix one with out fixing the other AT THE SAME TIME.


And that problem is...?



I will kindly direct you to the post #1 in this thread, you may have forgotten but this did not start out as a high vs null industry thread.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#292 - 2013-05-30 15:45:03 UTC
I think we all agree here. Buff null sec resource and industry first, and then look at reworking cyno mechanics to encourage more interesting gameplay in terms of both PVP and Logistics.
Prince Kobol
#293 - 2013-05-30 15:49:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
Transporting stuff from HS to null in a JF is stupidly easy.

I mean hell, so long as your station in null isn't' bubbled, the number of reds is no issue ( well it wasn't for me anyway :))

I never once had any issues and I used to make make regular runs, sometimes 2 - 3 per day.

Just to add... I am a complete nooblet as well
Stonecrusher Mortlock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#294 - 2013-05-30 15:54:24 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
I think we all agree here. Buff null sec resource and industry first, and then look at reworking cyno mechanics to encourage more interesting gameplay in terms of both PVP and Logistics.




do it at the same time, they are basically locked together.


ALL of these issues can be fixed with a reworking of POS's and cyno's, but apparently the CSM has asked CCP about POS's and gotten a resounding NO.


so apparently EvE must burn and so must CCP's profits if we wish to see a POS re-wright.
Tarsas Phage
Sniggerdly
#295 - 2013-05-30 16:03:41 UTC
This thread amuses Freight Club.

The only non-breaking "nerf" that could be applied to JFs (and perhaps capitals in general) is a jump drive cool down period. But it would have to have some stupid catch such as the cool down timer only decrements when the ship is undocked and in space to make such a thing actually fulfill its intent.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#296 - 2013-05-30 16:09:19 UTC
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


I'm not averse to a look at the way jump ships work, but it's an absolute imperative that 0.0 production be fixed first. There can be no compromise on that.





If you can build it all in null sec, and can still JF/Bridge everything around, you still have the same problem we started with.



you cant fix one with out fixing the other AT THE SAME TIME.


And that problem is...?



I will kindly direct you to the post #1 in this thread, you may have forgotten but this did not start out as a high vs null industry thread.



Sorry I should have been clearer. I understand that you don't like it but you have made no case that anyone else should care.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Stonecrusher Mortlock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#297 - 2013-05-30 16:10:31 UTC
Tarsas Phage wrote:
This thread amuses Freight Club.

The only non-breaking "nerf" that could be applied to JFs (and perhaps capitals in general) is a jump drive cool down period. But it would have to have some stupid catch such as the cool down timer only decrements when the ship is undocked and in space to make such a thing actually fulfill its intent.




Or cynos can be given a minimum distance away from station's. POS's, gate's, and other items.
Stonecrusher Mortlock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#298 - 2013-05-30 16:11:44 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


I'm not averse to a look at the way jump ships work, but it's an absolute imperative that 0.0 production be fixed first. There can be no compromise on that.





If you can build it all in null sec, and can still JF/Bridge everything around, you still have the same problem we started with.



you cant fix one with out fixing the other AT THE SAME TIME.


And that problem is...?



I will kindly direct you to the post #1 in this thread, you may have forgotten but this did not start out as a high vs null industry thread.



Sorry I should have been clearer. I understand that you don't like it but you have made no case that anyone else should care.



the ample likes, and suggesting changes/agreeing to this thread mark's no one cares?
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#299 - 2013-05-30 16:13:22 UTC
Xavier Liche wrote:
Don't allow high sec jump landings, make them jump to low then run on normal engines through high sec



This made me laugh a little and cry a lot. Please, step away from the topic before you hurt yourself.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#300 - 2013-05-30 16:18:07 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Nullsec is shockingly deficient in low-end minerals.


Holy **** ***** **** **** son of a God ****! That is an actual quote. Talk about playing fast and loose with the facts.

Low end minerals come from low end ores. Low end ores are far more abundant in low and null sec than they are in high sec. If you mine the low end ores and refine them, they will become low end minerals. If you need further explanation of this game mechanic, there is a nice lady named Aura who you can talk to. She can direct you to some mining tutorials that will explain it all in greater detail.

What the ******* **** suck ***** hallelujah are you talking about? OMFG