EVE General Discussion

Spoken like a true carebear. Who said they had to be loaded?

Have you folk had a look at my ideas for industry?

• Turn all refineries to activity lines with finite throughput
• Remove the bulk of NPC activity lines across the board
• Remove mineral compression

Chitsa Jason has a link to my notes on mining (and doing it properly, which means my way, rather than arse about like in Odyssey ;)

So we can justify crap game mechanics purely on ship/module demand? Because that's all I'm hearing from this discussion.

You do see the obvious retort? If 0.0 didn't have the instant ability to restock from high sec with little to no limiting factors for volume of supplies nor risk in transit, there wouldn't be the turnover of ships going boom that there is.

...now that's no answer though. We don't want to inhibit pvp because of crap logistical gameplay either... so there is a middle ground.

There is an argument to be made for increasing manufacturing capabilities (among soooo many other support logistics) for 0.0 stations. They should be able to be self sufficient if they want to choose that option. But CCP has a track record of ignoring things like this in 0.0....

How about the argument that no one says you should be able to support a 5000 man 0.0 alliance out of just a couple stations? Where is this a written right and intended consequence? Are there not hundreds of arguments to make against eternal escalation?

IMO, it's just too easy to blink all over the universe into whatever spot you want to place either one freighter or every damned ship in an alliance.

Too easy to move assets.
Too easy to project power.

OP is 100% right, they have basically removed the ability to disrupt supply lines because the only option now is to either pray for one mistake or attack the entire infrastructure those supplies are constantly supporting.

I played this entire last decade.
I lived in multiple different regions of 0.0 before jump bridges (hell, before capital ships period).

I've watched my side's freighters burn in move ops, I've had my own assets lost simply in transit. It was a nightmare, nerve racking, unfair... IT WAS EVE ONLINE. Our enemies had the save vulnerabilities, we were all on equal footing.

We've long heard complaints about the structure grind in 0.0. About how much of a pain war itself is...
do you not think this might be because there are **** mechanics making structure grind your only option? Perhaps there should other fronts to attack on (which there are, but not enough)... another vulnerability?

I think there should be many vulnerabilities.
And I think there is no question if they went too far with the system we have today.

So, if I'm so smart and right, why haven't CCP acknowledged it and brought some much needed Achilles heels to the massive MASSIVE entities?
Ones that should otherwise either be more independent in 0.0 for supplies or at least be vulnerable somewhere in the process of them moving supplies for 1,000 armies from Jita to the edge of known space.

My guess is the obvious, that they decided that they had made their bed by putting the entire 0.0 endgame into sov and structure grind and never bothered to realize that what they made 0.0 into... the very root of the concept, was incredibly flawed and poorly implemented.

It was laziness to fix the system at hand and it was eagerness to put out new shiny ships and abilities with little regard to the impact of the game in the long run. So, ~18 months, basically.

And I say that as a person that lived it. Plenty before and plenty after.
It was better before.
It was harder and more competitive and more risky, more HTFU, just as this game is supposed to be.

nerf one aspect of the game = buff another aspect of the game

Great post, really shows just how bad null sec is for supporting war and why the game is in the high sec supplying null situation it is.

Look at the concept of Sovereignty and Population linked in my signature. It would allow to build a industrial complex in a deadspace are that can provide 48 manufacturing slots (if you make one line per module per upgrade). A system can support 2-5 of such complexes, depending on the planets in the system. The lines can be disable by enemies if they are not defended.

All systems can be upgraded and customized to fill a purpose and require either constant repairs or defence from attacks to maintain their upgrades instead of grinding indexes. It's created by players and destroyed by players, as one would expect from a sandbox.

What I am worried about is instead of doing a ton of changes here and there as tweaks and revamps, there will be just two or three massive buffs/nerfs. Thus making the problems worse.

Example being the jump freighter. Yes, living in deep null was a major pain without the jump freighter years ago. The problem was it was a major pain when comparing it to living in low sec and high sec. So instead of increasing the difficulty of high sec logistics and decreasing the difficulty of null logistics, they gave us the jump freighter. Literally making everyone's hanger a diet Jita market at Jita prices.

And because logistics in high sec did not change one bit, it still remained king when compared to logistics of null even after the JF was introduced. So here we are, with the same bar of easy mode high sec functions. So do we keep buffing null logistics to make it more attractive? NOOOO!!!! That would not accomplish the goal at all.

But again, the issues are many and intertwined with each other. There is a lot of players who have been enjoying fine wine on a cheap beer budget. Sadly they will have tunnel vision and only care about them and not the health of the game. Just keep in mind that if a change needs to happen badly, do not be discouraged if at first it can't/shouldn't be done due to it causing other issues. It is only an issue if you do not address those at the same time, thus letting your original change/fix run wild causing more harm than good.

Is the juice worth the squeeze?

all i see is a I DEMAND easier targets post

have a look at some killboards and you see how many JF get killed ,
all you need are some brains and some good teamwork

Don't take me out of context! I never said anything about CCPs job here. My post was in response to another posters argument that removing the need to convoy goods to your home in nullsec has reduced PvP opportunity. My counter argument was that even though convoys don't happen the way they used to, the existence of jump capable ships has in fact INCREASED pvp opportunity, just changed its form a bit.

Now you bring up another issue...balance. That's an interesting word and has been used a lot of different ways around here. What does it mean, and when is it achieved? Does it mean there has to be an obvious counter for every action? Or does it mean everybody has to have the same access to all arts of the game given time and ISK? Or both? Or neither?

The way I see it is if both of those conditions are false there is true imbalance worthy of dev action. So when accessibility is limited to a few and there is no real counter then I consider it unbalanced. Take moon goo for example, the moon goo industry was dominated by large power blocs so good moons were not accessible to anybody other than another tech owning power bloc. So in that scenario we have a monopoly. Access to that kind of ISK generation is limited to a few groups and nobody except them can hope to change that because there is no real counter to an organization that large with that much access to ISK. This results in stalemates and NIPs in nullsec...nobody is happy or having fun. So CCP rebalanced by reducing the Tech bottleneck.

As far as logistics goes I do not believe it is unbalanced. Anybody can train up to a JF or rorqual and grind up to afford on just like everyone else. Additionally the jump capable ships actually INCREASE population and activity in 0.0 so they are inherently good for the game.

Sorry for any spelling errors...wrote this on my iPhone and it was a pain...

I am all for a buff to nullsec industry! I think independence from high sec is one of the major ideas behind nullsec itself, and should be achievable!

Achilles heels...yes, but it would be completely unfair to totally destroy the security and space a large coalition has worked years to build! However, moon goo rebalance was a step in the right direction to rebalance the vice grip that certain coalitions have on nullsec at the moment!