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New, role embracing ability for Recons
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Autonomous Monster
Paradox Interstellar
#41 - 2011-11-03 16:02:25 UTC
Gerrick Palivorn wrote:
New Skill:

Quote:
(x3) Covert Targeting

Prerequisites: Signature Analysis V, Cloaking IV

Allows the use of Passive Targeting Systems while operating a Covert Ops Cloaking Device. Each level Increases the Decloak timer by 1 second to a maximum of 5 seconds at Level V.


The prerequistes are chosen becuase thay make sense and that they also are some of the prerequisites for the Recon skill and covert ops cloaking device.

I feel that 5 seconds is more than enough time to do what you need to do. I think the decloak timer starts when you begin targeting the ship rather than after the target is confirmed locked so that this isn't overly abused to gank frigates, and so that smart pilots can still excape with some quick thinking.


Yup, that'll do.

You might want to startt a new thread for this; I get the impression no-one's reading past the OP any more. Roll
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#42 - 2011-11-03 17:20:52 UTC
One issue I see with a "lock someone when cloaked for a sneak attack" idea is that instead of that, it'll end up being an instant heavy tackle for an incoming gang most of the time, rather than a sneak attack. There's a reason for the targeting delay, I don't think this will actually add anything worthwhile to Eve.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#43 - 2011-11-03 21:33:41 UTC
mxzf wrote:
One issue I see with a "lock someone when cloaked for a sneak attack" idea is that instead of that, it'll end up being an instant heavy tackle for an incoming gang most of the time, rather than a sneak attack. There's a reason for the targeting delay, I don't think this will actually add anything worthwhile to Eve.

Unless you massively redesign the Pilgrim, force recons as a class aren't going to be "sneak attack" ships. Some of them, yes, but not all. So a supervolley as proposed in the OP or anything else intended to facilitate quick kills would completely imbalance the ship class, making one of them significantly less useful than the others.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#44 - 2011-11-04 07:18:08 UTC
Autonomous Monster wrote:
Gerrick Palivorn wrote:
New Skill:

Quote:
(x3) Covert Targeting

Prerequisites: Signature Analysis V, Cloaking IV

Allows the use of Passive Targeting Systems while operating a Covert Ops Cloaking Device. Each level Increases the Decloak timer by 1 second to a maximum of 5 seconds at Level V.


The prerequistes are chosen becuase thay make sense and that they also are some of the prerequisites for the Recon skill and covert ops cloaking device.

I feel that 5 seconds is more than enough time to do what you need to do. I think the decloak timer starts when you begin targeting the ship rather than after the target is confirmed locked so that this isn't overly abused to gank frigates, and so that smart pilots can still excape with some quick thinking.


Yup, that'll do.

You might want to startt a new thread for this; I get the impression no-one's reading past the OP any more. Roll


If you would like to post this up and cite me then fine but I'm not in support of this idea. I love my recons and I know that this will make them horrible WTFOMGPWNBBQ. I came up with the ideas to show that there are simple ways to change the rules without making them to complicated, and still get what you are aiming for. In this specific case, the sneak attack, which is already a viable tactic using bombers.

MMOs come and go, but Eve remains.  -Garresh-
Sveti Ante
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#45 - 2011-11-05 09:42:46 UTC
Gerrick Palivorn wrote:
Autonomous Monster wrote:
Gerrick Palivorn wrote:
New Skill:

Quote:
(x3) Covert Targeting

Prerequisites: Signature Analysis V, Cloaking IV

Allows the use of Passive Targeting Systems while operating a Covert Ops Cloaking Device. Each level Increases the Decloak timer by 1 second to a maximum of 5 seconds at Level V.


The prerequistes are chosen becuase thay make sense and that they also are some of the prerequisites for the Recon skill and covert ops cloaking device.

I feel that 5 seconds is more than enough time to do what you need to do. I think the decloak timer starts when you begin targeting the ship rather than after the target is confirmed locked so that this isn't overly abused to gank frigates, and so that smart pilots can still excape with some quick thinking.


Yup, that'll do.

You might want to startt a new thread for this; I get the impression no-one's reading past the OP any more. Roll


If you would like to post this up and cite me then fine but I'm not in support of this idea. I love my recons and I know that this will make them horrible WTFOMGPWNBBQ. I came up with the ideas to show that there are simple ways to change the rules without making them to complicated, and still get what you are aiming for. In this specific case, the sneak attack, which is already a viable tactic using bombers.


I like the suggestion brought up as modification to the OP. Ill think about a constructive reply :). Bombers are nice but extremely specific, which reduces greatly their overall viability except for very specific tasks...and god forbid anyone targets and actually shoots you.
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#46 - 2011-11-05 11:05:13 UTC
When a frigate can get up to 600+ dps on a battleship (solo) and then on top of that is given an area effect weapon that deals massive damage, I'm really glad that it can be instapopped if looked at sideways. Same goes for the Tier 3 BC's, it's all a matter of pro's and con's. Strong enough that you want to fly it with glaring weaknesses that make you think twice. What op suggests, or even my modification will make recons to powerful, more specifically the Arazu and the Rapier. Frigates would never be flown again in PVP for fear of a Recon ambushing you.

MMOs come and go, but Eve remains.  -Garresh-
Sveti Ante
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#47 - 2011-11-05 21:16:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Sveti Ante
Gerrick Palivorn wrote:
When a frigate can get up to 600+ dps on a battleship (solo) and then on top of that is given an area effect weapon that deals massive damage, I'm really glad that it can be instapopped if looked at sideways. Same goes for the Tier 3 BC's, it's all a matter of pro's and con's. Strong enough that you want to fly it with glaring weaknesses that make you think twice. What op suggests, or even my modification will make recons to powerful, more specifically the Arazu and the Rapier. Frigates would never be flown again in PVP for fear of a Recon ambushing you.


Actually, ATM what saves frigates from a rapier or arazu is NOT the dps of the Recon, its the lock delay between decloaking + lock time. Which can be around 10 seconds. That is PLENTY of time for a frigate to warp out. I do not think that my suggestion would affect frigates that much. The stealth bomber is highly specific, it also gets killed quickly by drones. Bombers are useless solo, you can only kill the hopelessly stupid and negligent alone.

I do not agree with the cloaking targeting on recons. That would make them FAR more powerful than the critical strike i was suggesting. No frigate would escape, it would be locked and scrammed, webbed before he knew what was happening and giving it zero survival in that encounter.

From what i see, ganking frigs is the main concern. A modification I would make on my OP would be a 50% tracking penalty on the Critical Strike as to make it harder to insta kill / gank moving frigs. After the strike the guns would return to their normal tracking. That would make it very hard to Crit a moving frigate.

After all the posts I still do not see a really valid objection to the actual ability of the recons, but to the actual execution.
Sveti Ante
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#48 - 2011-11-05 21:36:20 UTC
mxzf wrote:
One issue I see with a "lock someone when cloaked for a sneak attack" idea is that instead of that, it'll end up being an instant heavy tackle for an incoming gang most of the time, rather than a sneak attack. There's a reason for the targeting delay, I don't think this will actually add anything worthwhile to Eve.


I agree, I am against insta locking of any kind without the target being able to "see" it coming and with some sense protect itself. Dont like "NO CAN DEFENSE" anything.
Sveti Ante
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#49 - 2011-11-05 21:40:02 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
mxzf wrote:
One issue I see with a "lock someone when cloaked for a sneak attack" idea is that instead of that, it'll end up being an instant heavy tackle for an incoming gang most of the time, rather than a sneak attack. There's a reason for the targeting delay, I don't think this will actually add anything worthwhile to Eve.

Unless you massively redesign the Pilgrim, force recons as a class aren't going to be "sneak attack" ships. Some of them, yes, but not all. So a supervolley as proposed in the OP or anything else intended to facilitate quick kills would completely imbalance the ship class, making one of them significantly less useful than the others.


This particular property is for gun / missile recons not for the pilgrim. The Pilgrim is a special kind of recon. By no means is this supposed to be a property for EVERY recon or cloaking ship.

For the pilgrim i would give it something that fits its general role/idea, font know what yet.
Sveti Ante
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#50 - 2011-11-05 21:42:34 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
mxzf wrote:
One issue I see with a "lock someone when cloaked for a sneak attack" idea is that instead of that, it'll end up being an instant heavy tackle for an incoming gang most of the time, rather than a sneak attack. There's a reason for the targeting delay, I don't think this will actually add anything worthwhile to Eve.

Unless you massively redesign the Pilgrim, force recons as a class aren't going to be "sneak attack" ships. Some of them, yes, but not all. So a supervolley as proposed in the OP or anything else intended to facilitate quick kills would completely imbalance the ship class, making one of them significantly less useful than the others.



Right. As i said, this is ONLY FOR GUNSHIPS.
Sveti Ante
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#51 - 2011-11-05 21:43:43 UTC
Smiling Menace wrote:
Not really liking this idea at all.

The Recons already have a role as previously stated and I don't think allowing them to instapop unsuspecting ships is a great idea.

I personally can see this being used to gank haulers/barges as anything smaller will warp off and anything bigger you won't be able to kill. It's a solo sneaky PvP option for gankers. I think they get enough help from the ships and bonuses we already have.

Not supported.


Thats not what it would do. I think you missed half the OP.
Sveti Ante
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#52 - 2011-11-05 21:46:48 UTC
Endovior wrote:
I'm through with arguing with the OP, who doesn't seem to understand how Eve works.

Gerrick Palivorn wrote:
Concept: I like it

Execution: NO

Here's what I would do, make a module that allows you to passively target someone while cloaked. Then the module will cool down for 5 seconds and after that time will automatically decloak you. Once you activate the module you cannot stop the decloak timer. This will allow you to prime your weapons and engage an enemy almost before you decloak. The victim then has to react, target (and depending on what ship your in that could be a while) and then engage you. Enough time for you to get a few volleys off. It creates the same effect without any complicated new mechanics. It's a passive targeting system with a decloak timer on it. Also as a side note, if you use it and your already decloaked, it acts like a Passive targeter.

TL:DR Add a decloak timer to passive targeters and enable there use while cloaked.


This is by far a superior proposal to that of OP. Supported.


If this isnt overpowered, i dont know what is. I do not agree. Timer or no timer, being able to lock someone while cloaked and being able to insta engage is BAD!
Roonia
Vassagon
#53 - 2011-11-05 21:49:39 UTC
I support the OP with some mods to prevent insta popping every frigate.
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#54 - 2011-11-05 22:34:29 UTC
Your original post is far to complicated to even be considered by most people. They don't even address the issue of you OP because it's far to restrictive and rules heavy. In essence sneak attack has no premise in eve because of the inherent abilities of starships. The ability to constantly have automated programs standing guard and keeping defences primed and optimized is the glaring issue and chief arguement with the OP.

Recons are EWAR beasts and really don't need any change to make them better or worse (as a ship standpoint) ECM is something completely different and I'm not arguing that here.

MMOs come and go, but Eve remains.  -Garresh-
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