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When will EVE Online get a 64 bit client?

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Doc Severide
Doomheim
#41 - 2013-05-30 01:21:59 UTC
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:
Tippia - you are one of the people that is probably still running Win 98(if I remember correctly you have said this in previous post that you are still running the game on this). I've seen you argue against CCP making the game better since forever. The game would run better - end of story. Old OS's like Win 98 and XP cannot take advantage of modern, up-to-date graphics cards and CPU's - argue about it all you want - that is fact.

I really can't afford to upgrade from Windows for Workgroups 3.11...
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2013-05-30 01:35:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Karsa Egivand
Oh, this is fun, Tippia spearing some newbie forum warrier.
Stegas Tyrano
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2013-05-30 01:44:47 UTC
Do another boot.ini that targets old computers Twisted

Herping your derp since 19Potato - [url=https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2403364][Proposal] - Ingame Visual Adverts[/url]
Wyrm Drake
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#44 - 2013-05-30 02:19:53 UTC
Wow. Ok

First off. 32 or 64bit has nothing to do with the number of cores you can use. If a program is written to use multi-threading, then it can regardless if it's 32 or 64. Otherwise, it uses one core and Windows controls it's usage of what core.

My Working set of memory for Eve now is 1.3GB and it has peaked at 1.7GBs, which means it has maxed out it's VAS usage (Windows assigns 2GB of isolated memory to a program when it starts called the VAS, you're usually using all of it at about 1.7GBs cause of overhead). So, to some extent, Eve could make use of more memory. But, if it would be worth it is another question. If a lot of the data Eve will be holding in memory now takes 64bits to represent, even if that data can be represented with 32bits, that data still uses 64bits which means a lot of wasted space eating up memory. With many programs, that can be a drawback to the system overall. Now, CCP could go over the code to reduce the wasted space but, most of the time, there is not a lot of benefit for a game to do this.. yet

Most of the 64bit data in Eve is graphic data which is handled by the GPU that already runs at more than 64bits.

DX11 and tessellation have nothing to do with 32 or 64bit. It only has to do with what versions of Windows CCP decides to support and then writing the code to make use of them

This is a very simplified explanation, but should be sufficient
Vexidious
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2013-05-30 02:45:21 UTC
Wyrm Drake wrote:
Wow. Ok

First off. 32 or 64bit has nothing to do with the number of cores you can use. If a program is written to use multi-threading, then it can regardless if it's 32 or 64. Otherwise, it uses one core and Windows controls it's usage of what core.

My Working set of memory for Eve now is 1.3GB and it has peaked at 1.7GBs, which means it has maxed out it's VAS usage (Windows assigns 2GB of isolated memory to a program when it starts called the VAS, you're usually using all of it at about 1.7GBs cause of overhead). So, to some extent, Eve could make use of more memory. But, if it would be worth it is another question. If a lot of the data Eve will be holding in memory now takes 64bits to represent, even if that data can be represented with 32bits, that data still uses 64bits which means a lot of wasted space eating up memory. With many programs, that can be a drawback to the system overall. Now, CCP could go over the code to reduce the wasted space but, most of the time, there is not a lot of benefit for a game to do this.. yet

Most of the 64bit data in Eve is graphic data which is handled by the GPU that already runs at more than 64bits.

DX11 and tessellation have nothing to do with 32 or 64bit. It only has to do with what versions of Windows CCP decides to support and then writing the code to make use of them

This is a very simplified explanation, but should be sufficient



Pretty much this. Just recompiling the existing code as 64 bit will have exactly zero benefit, and could conceivably make things worse. Unless CCP intends to optimize the code for 64 bit there is absolutely no point. And even if they were to go to that trouble, it is highly questionable what there is to gain by doing so. Yes, the client could access more RAM, but it doesn't currently have any memory issues. Yes, it may be able to execute slightly faster, but probably not enough for anyone to notice the difference.

What would happen, though, is that people running 32 bit operating systems (a not insignificant number of people, I might add) would need to make some system upgrades in order to play the game. Some will; some will not. CCP will undoubtedly lose some customers in the process. On balance, it doesn't seem worth the trouble.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2013-05-30 02:56:38 UTC
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:

Here is your citation.


#67 Posted: 2012.06.26 20:26 | Report

PinkKnife wrote:
Would it make a large difference? Is it worth doing? Hard to implement?

CCP Explorer wrote:
That has nothing to do with 32 bit vs. 64 bit but has everything to do with single core vs. multi core.



Now I will admit that I generally find Tippia grating and hard to debate with. But definitely in this case she has a point, as the quote you cite literally shows the opposite of what you are claming (made it bold for you even).

Why would you pull out a quote that literally says that, when you are trying to claim the opposite?
Cyrina Manto
RBS Inc.
#47 - 2013-05-30 02:57:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyrina Manto
Wyrm Drake hit the nail on the head.

If you recompile a 32bit program as 64 bit it gets the following...

1. Increased memory usage as the base data structure is larger. 1.7gb of memory usage becomes 2.4-2.5 for the exact same data in memory.

2. Access to more memory.


The only reason to have a 64bit client would be if CCP released the textures used for the EvE CGI sequences, because the memory needed for texture cache would increase exponentially.

As to multicore and EvE...

EvE is not cpu bound that I can see. I get triple digit framerates (edit: 200+) on an 8 core workstation with a cpu speed of only 2ghz.
Sobach
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2013-05-30 03:16:50 UTC
So basically this thread is about how the OP have no idea what he is talking about? gotcha.
Zak Breen
Breen Enterprises
#49 - 2013-05-30 03:37:38 UTC
Solution:

EVE needs to be rewritten entirely in assembly. Lol OPTIMIZATION!

Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of not knowing. http://www.di.fm/spacemusic
Aragoni
Black Talon Command
#50 - 2013-05-30 07:28:27 UTC
I don't want to be rude or anything but how many of you actually know what you're talking about?

Maybe we can get a CCP-response on if (and if, how so) EVE actually would benefit from going to x64? No need to answer the question about when (once again: If) it arrives.
dark heartt
#51 - 2013-05-30 07:33:26 UTC
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:
Old OS's like Win 98 and XP cannot take advantage of modern, up-to-date graphics cards and CPU's - argue about it all you want - that is fact.


Couldn't care less about 98, but XP has a 64 bit version, and it runs perfectly well with modern tech thank you very much. Personally I use 7 now, but with Eve the way it runs there really isn't a major *need* to go to 64 bit.

http://tetrisisunrealistic.blogspot.com.au/
Herr Esiq
Viziam
#52 - 2013-05-30 07:44:02 UTC
Correct me if im wrong, but since my computer has 16gb of memory its more of a frustration then a benefit that EVE 'only' uses 1gb while it could have used 14 more gb to preload every texture availeble into memory and save a bit on loading.

Having your memory unused isnt really a benefit.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#53 - 2013-05-30 07:56:20 UTC
Herr Esiq wrote:
Correct me if im wrong, but since my computer has 16gb of memory its more of a frustration then a benefit that EVE 'only' uses 1gb while it could have used 14 more gb to preload every texture availeble into memory and save a bit on loading.

Having your memory unused isnt really a benefit.



Thing is, you see that 16GB? It'll be being used as disk cache. So the textures will be in memory, after the first use.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Herr Esiq
Viziam
#54 - 2013-05-30 08:01:11 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Herr Esiq wrote:
....



Thing is, you see that 16GB? It'll be being used as disk cache. So the textures will be in memory, after the first use.



In that case, i said nothing..Cool
Throktar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#55 - 2013-05-30 08:24:40 UTC
What I heard in the rumor mill (just made up in my head) is that CCP is going to release a graphics update with direct x 16, so we just need to be patient :)
RaTTuS
BIG
#56 - 2013-05-30 08:25:37 UTC
64Bit native makes things get bigger code wise
dx11 does not need 64bit
there are 32bit win7 options and they are very useful for some systems
32bti is fine for most things
64bit systems can have lots of memory so they can run more copies of eve better -

http://eveboard.com/ub/419190933-134.png http://i.imgur.com/kYLoKrM.png

ISD Gallifreyan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#57 - 2013-05-30 08:34:15 UTC
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:
Is it really a minority of players that is holding back the advancement of EVE to a 64bit client? How many people still use Win 98 or XP to play EVE Online? We can't have nice things like tessellation, DX11, or utilize more memory until the minority hold-outs upgrade their gaming systems. My question is...when will CCP realize that the rest of the gaming world has moved onto 21st century tech and they are still working with tech from 2001 and their game engine needs a major upgrade? Will the game continue to be held back by the minority of players that are too cheap to upgrade?

I'm not sure it is a minority of players who use 32bit OS'
not everyone can afford to upgrade their Gaming hardware yearly like those of us in the 1st world with good jobs (or parents with good jobs.)
Eve is played globally.
Also some people need to run 32bit systems for other programs that are not 64bit compatible.

I am not saying it should not be worked on, but I do not believe it should be rushed.
(also I doubt anyone is running Win98 to play Eve, but I may be mistaken)

ISD Gallifreyan

Lt. Commander

Community Communication Liaisons (CCL)

Interstellar Services Department
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#58 - 2013-05-30 08:51:00 UTC
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:
Yes, but they are optimized for 64bit and so are modern CPU's with multiple cores. CCP Explorer has all ready said that EVE would run so much better if they could make us of multi-core and multi-thread programming that a 64bit client would allow for, and the greater memory access - and 32bit doesn't.

This is why we can't have good things in EVE. :(


"optimised for 64 bit", no, they're 64 bit processors that run 32 bit processes just as well. Anyway CCP Explorer can already do all of that, except make his process gigantic. I don't see what his point is.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#59 - 2013-05-30 08:53:07 UTC
Zak Breen wrote:
Solution:

EVE needs to be rewritten entirely in assembly. Lol OPTIMIZATION!


It is. The compiler writes the assembler, and optimises it in 99.999% of cases far more efficiently than any Human could. Exception is SIMD, where compilers still suck at optimising vector operations.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#60 - 2013-05-30 08:56:27 UTC
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:

Here is your citation.


#67 Posted: 2012.06.26 20:26 | Report

PinkKnife wrote:
Would it make a large difference? Is it worth doing? Hard to implement?

CCP Explorer wrote:
That has nothing to do with 32 bit vs. 64 bit but has everything to do with single core vs. multi core. And also 1 GB of RAM vs. 8 GB, but 8 GB allows the operating system to cache much more aggressively. Also, I daresay that there are very different graphics cards in these two machines?


Incorrect context. He's saying it makes NO DIFFERENCE in this quote. Then he's saying client optimisation is more to do with multi-threading/multi-core. And even that is hard to do so it scales nicely. You have to show a lot of respect to the cache (like making sure your objects aren't all sat on the same cache line) in order to win with multiple threads. Coding for multi-core is hard.