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Post Odyssey Phoenix?
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Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-05-29 19:34:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Vassal Zeren
I know standard procedure for cap escalation is to warp in 1 carrier then a web and painting loki and then the dread. Due to the changes to sieging regarding citadel missiles (aka explosion velocity is no longer penalized) some preliminary calculations seem to indicate that the phoenix might actually be effective as a cap escalation dread with the proper fitting. So heres the fit.

Low Slots

Caldari Navy Ballistic x3
DCU II
True Sansha PDS

Medium Slots

Capital Neutron Saturation Injector I
Adaptive invuln x2
SB II
cap recharger II
Shield boost amp II x2

High Slots

Shock 'limos' citadel Torpedo Bay x3
Siege module I

Rigs

XL Warhead Rigor Catalyst x3

Implant

FR-1005 implant

http://eve.battleclinic.com/calculators.php#missile

Using this calculator, I found that an orbiting sleepless guardian double webbed and double painted (with domination paints) would take nearly full damage from a phoenix fit in this fashion. Did I calculate it right? Is this just on paper DPS or will it work? Thoughts?

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-05-29 23:05:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Vassal Zeren
To post some stats, a sleepless guardian has a sig radius of 400m. I calculate that 2 paints will boost that to 779. With the fit above a citadel torp has an explosion radius of 921 and a velocity of 30 vs the double webbed guardians velocity of 35.5. If i input these stats (as well as a 75% resist bonus for the Guardian) I get 1 missile's damage on the Guardian to be 8653. Multiply that by 3 and you get 25959 damage per volley. (which will fire every 13.4 seconds) Three volleys should be all that are necessary to finish one off. Thats about 40 seconds Per sleeper BS. With T2 rigs the damage would be close to perfect but the oddysy changes will be dire for T2 rigs on capitals.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-05-29 23:16:25 UTC
T1 siege? they still make those?

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-05-29 23:17:57 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
T1 siege? they still make those?


Yeah ikr? It fits with T2 as well, I just put this as a rudimentary setup. Obviously T2 is better.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#5 - 2013-05-30 12:20:30 UTC
It'll be usable, yeah, but it'll still have the fundamental problem that Moros and Naglfar are simply much better.
Gnaw LF
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2013-05-30 15:47:06 UTC
I admire out of the box thinking, I really do, but we seem to always get these "escalation" threads with people proposing the most bizarre setups instead of starting off from the multitude of the FAQs and Walkthrough posted by the veterans. While I appreciate the enthusiasm I would like to point out that its not out of the box thinking, you are still in the box; in fact the box has another box inside it, one with far less ISK per hour efficiency and that is where your thinking is. Sure, the Phoenix might be able to do some damage to Sleepers now, but FFS is it really worth it?
Casirio
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-05-30 16:16:37 UTC
well if you cant fly anything else might be worth bringing to your home sites to get a cut of the isk. even if you are still doing **** dps
Angelhunter
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-05-30 18:37:22 UTC
I suppose you could be the last Cap brought in.... to shoot down towers, that's about all you will hit for any sort of decent damage.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-05-30 19:12:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Vassal Zeren
Gnaw LF wrote:
I admire out of the box thinking, I really do, but we seem to always get these "escalation" threads with people proposing the most bizarre setups instead of starting off from the multitude of the FAQs and Walkthrough posted by the veterans. While I appreciate the enthusiasm I would like to point out that its not out of the box thinking, you are still in the box; in fact the box has another box inside it, one with far less ISK per hour efficiency and that is where your thinking is. Sure, the Phoenix might be able to do some damage to Sleepers now, but FFS is it really worth it?


Yes I have read the cap escalation guides; I'm just trying to see if the Phoenix can be useful now. As for the out of box thinking I think I get what you're saying: that there is a box for a reason. No one is going to suggest soloing C6 sites in a cruiser because its kind of not possible. My point is that most things have been tested and anything so radically different from what already works has probably already been tried in the X years since that feature has been introduced. I wasn't trying to propose something for the sake of being different, I was trying to determine if a post Odyssey Phoenix would be feasible.

As to is it worth it, here's a stat: The applied dps from these calculations of the Phoenix is 1937. Now people have repeatedly said that the Moros will hit for about 90% damage. that makes the applied dps of the Moros 1549. Now I know the slower fire rate and volley damage make it more cumbersome in some ways but it has a full 400 more applied dps. (again this is factoring in the 75% resists of the sleeper BS) This is also a comparison based on T1 siege btw. So exactly how is the dps terrible?

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Rall Mekin
End-of-Line
#10 - 2013-05-30 19:46:27 UTC
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Gnaw LF wrote:
I admire out of the box thinking, I really do, but we seem to always get these "escalation" threads with people proposing the most bizarre setups instead of starting off from the multitude of the FAQs and Walkthrough posted by the veterans. While I appreciate the enthusiasm I would like to point out that its not out of the box thinking, you are still in the box; in fact the box has another box inside it, one with far less ISK per hour efficiency and that is where your thinking is. Sure, the Phoenix might be able to do some damage to Sleepers now, but FFS is it really worth it?


Yes I have read the cap escalation guides; I'm just trying to see if the Phoenix can be useful now. As for the out of box thinking I think I get what you're saying: that there is a box for a reason. No one is going to suggest soloing C6 sites in a cruiser because its kind of not possible. My point is that most things have been tested and anything so radically different from what already works has probably already been tried in the X years since that feature has been introduced. I wasn't trying to propose something for the sake of being different, I was trying to determine if a post Odyssey Phoenix would be feasible.

As to is it worth it, here's a stat: The applied dps from these calculations of the Phoenix is 1937. Now people have repeatedly said that the Moros will hit for about 90% damage. that makes the applied dps of the Moros 1549. Now I know the slower fire rate and volley damage make it more cumbersome in some ways but it has a full 400 more applied dps. (again this is factoring in the 75% resists of the sleeper BS) This is also a comparison based on T1 siege btw. So exactly how is the dps terrible?



Get your crew together and test it on Sisi? We have a guy in corp thinking along the same lines, but we don't currently occupy a C5.
Incindir Mauser
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-05-30 19:46:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Incindir Mauser
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Using this calculator, I found that an orbiting sleepless guardian double webbed and double painted (with domination paints) would take nearly full damage from a phoenix fit in this fashion. Did I calculate it right? Is this just on paper DPS or will it work? Thoughts?


The Moros is better honestly.

Fly what you want.

Seriously. Fly what you want. Adhocracy has used Chimera/Phoenix's and web/paint setups to run escalations and they work quite well for blapping sleepers. You want three painters up, but any more than that is a waste.

Escalation battleships often die in one volley, and not even fully slowed with webs.

It's not as FAST as Moros or Nag. But it works and works well.

Plus Citadel Torp explosions are pretty and Bob approves of explosions.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-05-30 19:48:43 UTC
Rall Mekin wrote:
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Gnaw LF wrote:
I admire out of the box thinking, I really do, but we seem to always get these "escalation" threads with people proposing the most bizarre setups instead of starting off from the multitude of the FAQs and Walkthrough posted by the veterans. While I appreciate the enthusiasm I would like to point out that its not out of the box thinking, you are still in the box; in fact the box has another box inside it, one with far less ISK per hour efficiency and that is where your thinking is. Sure, the Phoenix might be able to do some damage to Sleepers now, but FFS is it really worth it?


Yes I have read the cap escalation guides; I'm just trying to see if the Phoenix can be useful now. As for the out of box thinking I think I get what you're saying: that there is a box for a reason. No one is going to suggest soloing C6 sites in a cruiser because its kind of not possible. My point is that most things have been tested and anything so radically different from what already works has probably already been tried in the X years since that feature has been introduced. I wasn't trying to propose something for the sake of being different, I was trying to determine if a post Odyssey Phoenix would be feasible.

As to is it worth it, here's a stat: The applied dps from these calculations of the Phoenix is 1937. Now people have repeatedly said that the Moros will hit for about 90% damage. that makes the applied dps of the Moros 1549. Now I know the slower fire rate and volley damage make it more cumbersome in some ways but it has a full 400 more applied dps. (again this is factoring in the 75% resists of the sleeper BS) This is also a comparison based on T1 siege btw. So exactly how is the dps terrible?



Get your crew together and test it on Sisi? We have a guy in corp thinking along the same lines, but we don't currently occupy a C5.


Alright will do. Good suggestion.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Svodola Darkfury
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-05-30 20:08:27 UTC
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Gnaw LF wrote:
I admire out of the box thinking, I really do, but we seem to always get these "escalation" threads with people proposing the most bizarre setups instead of starting off from the multitude of the FAQs and Walkthrough posted by the veterans. While I appreciate the enthusiasm I would like to point out that its not out of the box thinking, you are still in the box; in fact the box has another box inside it, one with far less ISK per hour efficiency and that is where your thinking is. Sure, the Phoenix might be able to do some damage to Sleepers now, but FFS is it really worth it?


Yes I have read the cap escalation guides; I'm just trying to see if the Phoenix can be useful now. As for the out of box thinking I think I get what you're saying: that there is a box for a reason. No one is going to suggest soloing C6 sites in a cruiser because its kind of not possible. My point is that most things have been tested and anything so radically different from what already works has probably already been tried in the X years since that feature has been introduced. I wasn't trying to propose something for the sake of being different, I was trying to determine if a post Odyssey Phoenix would be feasible.

As to is it worth it, here's a stat: The applied dps from these calculations of the Phoenix is 1937. Now people have repeatedly said that the Moros will hit for about 90% damage. that makes the applied dps of the Moros 1549. Now I know the slower fire rate and volley damage make it more cumbersome in some ways but it has a full 400 more applied dps. (again this is factoring in the 75% resists of the sleeper BS) This is also a comparison based on T1 siege btw. So exactly how is the dps terrible?


Where are these numbers coming from exactly? Our T1 siege starter moros fit does 12076 DPS, 90% of which would be approximately 10868. Our "on paper" Phoenix fit, using meta level launchers, Faction Torps, siege module II and 4x Caldari Navy BCS (one additional DPS module more than our Moros) only hits 11326 TOTAL DPS.

I don't think the issue is so much that the Phoenix can't work, but more that the Moros works so much better. Ammo costs appear to be more or less equal (torps cost 3x as much but you shoot 3x as much antimatter).

Svo.

Director of Frozen Corpse Industries.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-05-30 20:15:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Vassal Zeren
Svodola Darkfury wrote:
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Gnaw LF wrote:
I admire out of the box thinking, I really do, but we seem to always get these "escalation" threads with people proposing the most bizarre setups instead of starting off from the multitude of the FAQs and Walkthrough posted by the veterans. While I appreciate the enthusiasm I would like to point out that its not out of the box thinking, you are still in the box; in fact the box has another box inside it, one with far less ISK per hour efficiency and that is where your thinking is. Sure, the Phoenix might be able to do some damage to Sleepers now, but FFS is it really worth it?


Yes I have read the cap escalation guides; I'm just trying to see if the Phoenix can be useful now. As for the out of box thinking I think I get what you're saying: that there is a box for a reason. No one is going to suggest soloing C6 sites in a cruiser because its kind of not possible. My point is that most things have been tested and anything so radically different from what already works has probably already been tried in the X years since that feature has been introduced. I wasn't trying to propose something for the sake of being different, I was trying to determine if a post Odyssey Phoenix would be feasible.

As to is it worth it, here's a stat: The applied dps from these calculations of the Phoenix is 1937. Now people have repeatedly said that the Moros will hit for about 90% damage. that makes the applied dps of the Moros 1549. Now I know the slower fire rate and volley damage make it more cumbersome in some ways but it has a full 400 more applied dps. (again this is factoring in the 75% resists of the sleeper BS) This is also a comparison based on T1 siege btw. So exactly how is the dps terrible?


Where are these numbers coming from exactly? Our T1 siege starter moros fit does 12076 DPS, 90% of which would be approximately 10868. Our "on paper" Phoenix fit, using meta level launchers, Faction Torps, siege module II and 4x Caldari Navy BCS (one additional DPS module more than our Moros) only hits 11326 TOTAL DPS.

I don't think the issue is so much that the Phoenix can't work, but more that the Moros works so much better. Ammo costs appear to be more or less equal (torps cost 3x as much but you shoot 3x as much antimatter).

Svo.


I put this fit into eft except with T1 siege. http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/59636-Moros-SS-Happy-Ending.html
I know battleclinic isn't the greatest but I figured it was a decent comparison. I apologize if there are better fits however my primary purpose was to point out that the Phoenix dps isn't god awful as people seem to claim.

Could you please share the fit you are using?

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Tasiv Deka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2013-05-30 22:12:15 UTC
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Svodola Darkfury wrote:
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Gnaw LF wrote:
I admire out of the box thinking, I really do, but we seem to always get these "escalation" threads with people proposing the most bizarre setups instead of starting off from the multitude of the FAQs and Walkthrough posted by the veterans. While I appreciate the enthusiasm I would like to point out that its not out of the box thinking, you are still in the box; in fact the box has another box inside it, one with far less ISK per hour efficiency and that is where your thinking is. Sure, the Phoenix might be able to do some damage to Sleepers now, but FFS is it really worth it?


Yes I have read the cap escalation guides; I'm just trying to see if the Phoenix can be useful now. As for the out of box thinking I think I get what you're saying: that there is a box for a reason. No one is going to suggest soloing C6 sites in a cruiser because its kind of not possible. My point is that most things have been tested and anything so radically different from what already works has probably already been tried in the X years since that feature has been introduced. I wasn't trying to propose something for the sake of being different, I was trying to determine if a post Odyssey Phoenix would be feasible.

As to is it worth it, here's a stat: The applied dps from these calculations of the Phoenix is 1937. Now people have repeatedly said that the Moros will hit for about 90% damage. that makes the applied dps of the Moros 1549. Now I know the slower fire rate and volley damage make it more cumbersome in some ways but it has a full 400 more applied dps. (again this is factoring in the 75% resists of the sleeper BS) This is also a comparison based on T1 siege btw. So exactly how is the dps terrible?


Where are these numbers coming from exactly? Our T1 siege starter moros fit does 12076 DPS, 90% of which would be approximately 10868. Our "on paper" Phoenix fit, using meta level launchers, Faction Torps, siege module II and 4x Caldari Navy BCS (one additional DPS module more than our Moros) only hits 11326 TOTAL DPS.

I don't think the issue is so much that the Phoenix can't work, but more that the Moros works so much better. Ammo costs appear to be more or less equal (torps cost 3x as much but you shoot 3x as much antimatter).

Svo.


I put this fit into eft except with T1 siege. http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/59636-Moros-SS-Happy-Ending.html
I know battleclinic isn't the greatest but I figured it was a decent comparison. I apologize if there are better fits however my primary purpose was to point out that the Phoenix dps isn't god awful as people seem to claim.

Could you please share the fit you are using?



On paper Dps isn't god awful and with the buff to citadel missiles applied Dps should get fairly close to that(with support obviously... and besides theoretically the phoenix has the best stats of any dread both tank and gankwise (at the same time)... however sadly the "theoretically" part is in need of being underlined, bolded and flashing red.

Oh, Do go on... no seriously ive got nothing better to do then listen to all the petty arguments and feeble trolling attempts... 

The sad thing is i'm not sure if i'm telling the truth.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-05-30 23:18:45 UTC
Tasiv Deka wrote:
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Svodola Darkfury wrote:
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Gnaw LF wrote:
I admire out of the box thinking, I really do, but we seem to always get these "escalation" threads with people proposing the most bizarre setups instead of starting off from the multitude of the FAQs and Walkthrough posted by the veterans. While I appreciate the enthusiasm I would like to point out that its not out of the box thinking, you are still in the box; in fact the box has another box inside it, one with far less ISK per hour efficiency and that is where your thinking is. Sure, the Phoenix might be able to do some damage to Sleepers now, but FFS is it really worth it?


Yes I have read the cap escalation guides; I'm just trying to see if the Phoenix can be useful now. As for the out of box thinking I think I get what you're saying: that there is a box for a reason. No one is going to suggest soloing C6 sites in a cruiser because its kind of not possible. My point is that most things have been tested and anything so radically different from what already works has probably already been tried in the X years since that feature has been introduced. I wasn't trying to propose something for the sake of being different, I was trying to determine if a post Odyssey Phoenix would be feasible.

As to is it worth it, here's a stat: The applied dps from these calculations of the Phoenix is 1937. Now people have repeatedly said that the Moros will hit for about 90% damage. that makes the applied dps of the Moros 1549. Now I know the slower fire rate and volley damage make it more cumbersome in some ways but it has a full 400 more applied dps. (again this is factoring in the 75% resists of the sleeper BS) This is also a comparison based on T1 siege btw. So exactly how is the dps terrible?


Where are these numbers coming from exactly? Our T1 siege starter moros fit does 12076 DPS, 90% of which would be approximately 10868. Our "on paper" Phoenix fit, using meta level launchers, Faction Torps, siege module II and 4x Caldari Navy BCS (one additional DPS module more than our Moros) only hits 11326 TOTAL DPS.

I don't think the issue is so much that the Phoenix can't work, but more that the Moros works so much better. Ammo costs appear to be more or less equal (torps cost 3x as much but you shoot 3x as much antimatter).

Svo.


I put this fit into eft except with T1 siege. http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/59636-Moros-SS-Happy-Ending.html
I know battleclinic isn't the greatest but I figured it was a decent comparison. I apologize if there are better fits however my primary purpose was to point out that the Phoenix dps isn't god awful as people seem to claim.

Could you please share the fit you are using?



On paper Dps isn't god awful and with the buff to citadel missiles applied Dps should get fairly close to that(with support obviously... and besides theoretically the phoenix has the best stats of any dread both tank and gankwise (at the same time)... however sadly the "theoretically" part is in need of being underlined, bolded and flashing red.


Yeah, I'm talking about effective dps taking into account missile velocity and explosion radius in comparison to BS size. What exactly is theoretical?

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Svodola Darkfury
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2013-05-31 00:19:03 UTC
If you can apply even 75% of your damage with that setup, it's worth running as the second dread. You should try to run a Moros if you can, but post changes it may lose a little bit of its "king of the hill" throne. if you're limited to Phoenix, having the bonus battleships is always worth it.

Svo.

Director of Frozen Corpse Industries.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2013-05-31 01:05:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Vassal Zeren
Svodola Darkfury wrote:
If you can apply even 75% of your damage with that setup, it's worth running as the second dread. You should try to run a Moros if you can, but post changes it may lose a little bit of its "king of the hill" throne. if you're limited to Phoenix, having the bonus battleships is always worth it.

Svo.



Thanks for the input. I suppose the cross training changes will make originally training one races dread less of an issue but I still kinda want the phoenix to work (i'm not sure why; maybe I just feel bad for it!) On a semi related note, I've been reading mixed things: are a carrier and loki followed by a dread are sufficient for the first wave? (assuming decent boost support) By the way, With three faction TP on a BS the Phoenix will do 100% dps. That's assuming double webbed which it will of course be.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Angsty Teenager
Broski North
#19 - 2013-05-31 03:21:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Angsty Teenager
You don't leave the carrier and loki in the site to kill the first wave, you warp the dread in also and kill both waves at the same time.

Your phoenix will also never do full dps with only one loki because webs take time to slow down your target. With a 3 TP, 2 web loki your target will probably not even slow down completely by the time it has died. To make your setup work properly, you'll probably want two lokis at least, each with 3 webs and double TP, have 3 webs on the primary and 3 on the secondary, and either split the TP's or just put all the primary.

HOWEVER, it is actually worth noting that the phoenix is actually better than the rev at all ranges where torps hit (<62km). with the rev maxing out at 11193dps with 4 heat sinks and a T2 damage rig, and appropriate implants, and the phoenix maxing out at 11922dps with 4 CN BCU's and implants (rigs are rigors). Furthermore the phoenix has better range (62 km effective) vs 35+24 on the rev. Has comparable tank and cap, but that really depends on what you do with the phoenixes mids.

I honestly did not realize the rev was so **** until this post, lel.

I've included four pictures below, the first is a dps graph of the dps on a double webbed and double faction TP'd sleepless guardian from each of the dreads. The next three are the dread fits for the phoenix, moros, and revelation I used respectively. It's all post patch of course, using the new XL guns and tracking enhancer changes.

Dps Graph

Phoenix Fit
Moros Fit
Revelation Fit

The drop off in dps for the phoenix at 45km is due to TP's going into falloff and I guess they have less of a chance to apply, and eft takes that into account for TP's on the ship. (I manually put double TP and web on the sleepless guardian, and then the phoenix gets an extra 2 TP's from it's own hull). So consider that how you will, but it is worth noting that the phoenix actually out dps's the moros at about 55km and further if you assume the TP's are always applied. This model also assumes that by the time the dreads are shooting the target, it has been slowed to the minimum speed with double webs.

On the whole though, the rev is **** and on top of crappy dps, suffers from tracking issues, the phoenix is now viable and better than the shitheap that the rev is, but is not that much better, and the moros is still king and will always be king.

Moros is love, Moros is life.

EDIT: I'm dumb and forgot to stick tengu links on the phoenix, it's tank is actually 11275.
EDIT 2: The rev does a little better at longer ranges if you swap to longer range ammo, but it's still worse than the phoenix.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2013-05-31 09:36:04 UTC
How about the Nag?
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