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why have system gates? Technical (server side) issue or just legacy "we thought this was cool&q

Author
Stegas Tyrano
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2013-05-29 13:30:59 UTC
Removing gates will never happen because the mechanics and game play around them are too well established.

A more realistic idea would be to have Jump drive modules for sub-caps that consume fuel, giving you the freedom to jump between systems within a set range. The drawbacks will have to the requirement of cyno's (so campers know you're incoming and can warp to you) or make it so the Jump Drive can only jump to Stargate signatures (so you may be jumping into a camp).

Suggesting alternative idea's without risk or drawbacks is completely unbalanced.

Herping your derp since 19Potato - [url=https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2403364][Proposal] - Ingame Visual Adverts[/url]

Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#22 - 2013-05-29 13:44:00 UTC
Gates are fine. It's by gameplay design and a server one.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden

Mhax Arthie
Doomheim
#23 - 2013-05-29 13:47:12 UTC
Himnos Altar wrote:
GreenSeed wrote:
Lord Haur wrote:
GreenSeed wrote:
anyway, regardless of how it happens, i think its already agreed among players that eventually we would like to see them gone

[citation needed]


FYC



Why would we need to get rid of gate camps? They're a perfectly legitimate way to protect your interests. Whether you consider keeping the dirty, dirty Hi Sec Hippies in their place, the non-elite non-null unwashed masses out of your territory, protecting your home Jspace from invaders, or are just bored/drunk/high and want to do something late night that doesn't require much effort (and can't be arsed to mine).

They're a pain when you get blown up, sure. but if you get blown up by a gate camp, you obviously didn't scout your way ahead using cloaky/frig. Or the campers have interceptors (or equivalent) dragging drones in which case good on them.

Actually the gates should be player built. To enter you need to hack it, blow it up or much better.. send in a gift, like a space troian horse.
Adunh Slavy
#24 - 2013-05-29 13:49:35 UTC
I'll give you a few, some more serious than others ...

It's space! Gates make Eve feel small, confined and arena like.
Space should feel huge, expansive, limitless.

Gates are too predictable and repetitive.
Not only are they just simply repetitive from a day to day travel perspective, but they create repetitive PVP situations.

They encourage blobbing.
Eve already has reasons to blob, the blockade unit, the TCU, the POS, the Outpost/Station and now Dust orbital support.

It's space, it should be freaking huge with very few places to hide other than in the vastness of it and maneuver to flanks. Space combat will have more in common with desert combat than what Eve expresses. Fast moving, hard hitting small groups of skirmishes and pickets leading up to the large siege. Not a barbarians at the castle gate, over and over and over again.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#25 - 2013-05-29 13:59:35 UTC
I just got back last night and got to see some new changes. The jumppoints in space are a nice touch, it really helps put the perceived distance you must travel on your journey in perspective.

I understand the technical reasons they exist, and I understand the game mechanic reasons for their existence, though I don't necessarily agree with them. In a Utopian space based mmo I would prefer pvp be fought over resource points and structures than through choke points, but the structure of this game isnt exactly conducive to such an endeavor.

I wonder how many of you have read the Alliance/Union universe novels by C.J. Cherryh? I thin I'd like to see a game that employs that sort of travel. Briefly,the ftl travel poses a problem for mmo's because of timescales involved but the gist is ships use a stars mass to pull them from jumpspace, but it's not an exact science so the exact point of entry isn't known, but anyone tracking a ship from a previous star would know what general vector the ship would be coming in on and for a brief time neither side would be aware of the others presence. I think that would make for awesome cat and mouse games, especially for freighters.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 

Haulin Gneiss
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2013-05-29 14:11:29 UTC
Thanks to everyone for your insightful comments. I guess I feel that eve is a very flat and linear game with respect to how you travel. The gate concept just seems too simple/easy given that they were here before humanoids arrived on scene.

There should be a mechanic where a player can warp/jump within a given distance to other stars and face certain penalties for the convenience. Perhaps a "cool down" period on the ship where you cannot warp/cloak after a long system to system jump or a time penalty where the trip is not instantaneous but takes say 5 minutes.
Haulie Berry
#27 - 2013-05-29 14:57:51 UTC
GreenSeed wrote:
Lord Haur wrote:
GreenSeed wrote:
anyway, regardless of how it happens, i think its already agreed among players that eventually we would like to see them gone

[citation needed]


FYC


So, search results for the term "gatecamp", sans any context whatsoever, is indicative of a desire to remove gates?

******* airtight syllogism, there.
Corey Fumimasa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-05-29 15:29:44 UTC
Haulin Gneiss wrote:
Thanks to everyone for your insightful comments. I guess I feel that eve is a very flat and linear game with respect to how you travel. The gate concept just seems too simple/easy given that they were here before humanoids arrived on scene.

There should be a mechanic where a player can warp/jump within a given distance to other stars and face certain penalties for the convenience. Perhaps a "cool down" period on the ship where you cannot warp/cloak after a long system to system jump or a time penalty where the trip is not instantaneous but takes say 5 minutes.


So its a storyline issue for you? Not to minimize that in any way, story and coherency are a very important part of Eve, I'm just trying to understand why you don't like gate travel. The OP seemed to just assume that people don't like it and would like a change if something "better" was available.

For myself that is not the case. I think the gates themselves speak of long lost mysteries, and the mechanic is a good conflict driver. I can't imagine another form of interstellar travel filling both those capacities as well.
Rordan D'Kherr
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2013-05-29 15:59:56 UTC
GreenSeed wrote:

anyway, regardless of how it happens, i think its already agreed among players that eventually we would like to see them gone, same with highsec, at least in its current form.


Ah, so you are the majority of players? Otherwise this sentence would look really weird.

Don't be scared, because being afk is not a crime.

Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#30 - 2013-05-29 16:12:49 UTC
So, all of this because one of OPs toons died to a gate camp.

When youre the gatecamper: gates working as intended.
When youre the victim: gates are horribly broken, remove all the gates because (reasons/tears) and replace with (bad idea/no idea).
Everyone else: Who cares. Why fix what aint broken.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#31 - 2013-05-29 16:24:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer
Imagine if ships could dial in a system to system warp (mechanics aside for now) the way they do it in our favorite science fiction worlds like Star Trek and Star Wars.

(Though as I recall from Tie Fighter there are such things are Gravity Wells - I think - memory is old on this)


Imagine what this would do to small fleet PVP?

Imagine the end of gate camps, a damaging way to play for both the campers and the campees. Seriously, if you can sit at a gate all day for a KM, you have the same dysfunction as an apergian ISK-snatching miner in high sec for whom tanking their ship was considered sacrilege.

Imagine what this would do for nullsec. I have "imitated" the effects of system to system warp by using wormholes. I have spent MONTHS. Yes, MONTHS, in nullsec without seeing another ship. I said MONTHS.

That's how deserted it is out there, because the nullsec overlords have their renters manning gank pipelines, where people who are just as weird as highsec miner/grinders will sit at a gate all day killing everything that's "not blue". Nullsec is indeed safer than highsec if it can be said that you are 100 percent safe when nobody is in local. I have seen KMs of T3 cruisers that were caught off stations in low structure because someone volleyed it with a BS just to get a T3 kill and Concorde be damned (heck I think anybody would be enticed by that and anybody hanging off a station in a T3 with nearly no structure left is a kind of stupid begging to be "cured").

Imagine those gate camps replaced by combat patrols. Imagine being able to "raid" nullsec. Oh the overlords in CSM would never accept that. They like to raid highsec though.


Now imagine ships being able to dial in system to system warp, AND resources becoming limited such that a moon can be sucked dry and have to be left alone for a time, and high sec systems to eventually be cleared of rocks too. If you want to build 20 titans tomorrow, you could do so, but run out of natural resources, then you have to avoid "stupid ship loss" or you are done. Imagine when everybody and their brother is running missions and eventually the pirate factions are like "Everybody and their brother is here to kill us. Time to move out". Yes, even the missions dry up.

People forced to spread out...

Why, this might actually become a true PVP game fueled by the very same thing that fuels all conflict (known as "limited resources") instead of corporatism being protected by a ring of gank.

Let ships warp on their own, and things will be stirred up big time. Everybody says this is a sandbox, yet imagine a sandbox where there are only certain paths you can go on to get from one end to the other. Not really a sandbox then.


Would it be bad? Well, making resources expire would be bad for the ISK ISK and more ISK player who can mine and mission mindlessly all day with their eye on their wallet. It would be bad for the KM-addicts who can sit on a gate all day and have nothing else to do but kill everything that moved for no reason. Why rag on a playstyle one would ask? But it never feels like the people involved in these playstyles are actually playing a game. I think ritalin is involved. Or maybe it's self-abuse. Make system to system warp possible and all mining/mission resources finite and we actually have a game.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#32 - 2013-05-29 16:27:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Epeen
DP
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#33 - 2013-05-29 16:27:54 UTC
Sometimes it's hard to see how important some things are because they've always been there. Kind of like my college roommate freshman year, we came from the same town and he was all rebellious and couldn't wait to get away from his overbearing parents.....so as a college freshman every night he was on the phone.....with his mom.

EVE without gates (or some other really important core feature) might seem like a good idea, but when you remove or change the things a game is built around, you thing find yourself dealing with all the unintended consequences that feature holds in check. "Change now!" people can really be short sighted sometimes.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#34 - 2013-05-29 16:29:19 UTC
It has been one of my fantasies to see the gate system changed to be more like Freelancer.

It would prevent bottlenecks and encourage PVP due to being able to knock people out of warp between gate exits.

As well, it would open up the systems and make them feel larger due to having no integral warp capabilities. You'd need to take the gate system to the node nearest your location and slowboat from there. That also opens up more opportunities for PVP.

In my opinion, CCP needs to do something as when you have only one pirate activity (gate camping), and only one way to do it (sit at a gate until your brain bleeds from boredom), the game starts to feel stale.

Mr Epeen Cool
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#35 - 2013-05-29 16:29:42 UTC
How else are you ever going to get to another system? Are you really willing to spend a year in warp just to get next door?

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Plyn
Uncharted.
#36 - 2013-05-29 16:37:26 UTC
System gates exist in EvE to create transportation choke-points that force opportunities for interaction and PvP.
DFA200
Hard vs Soft
#37 - 2013-05-29 16:41:31 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Back when eve was a space combat game rather than a space farming game gates were implemented to have players meet. Without gates there would be no combat except bobbing over structures.


Sounds like they need to add some actual content.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#38 - 2013-05-29 16:42:34 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
DP


You need 3 people for that, and you and me are only 2.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#39 - 2013-05-29 16:55:04 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Imagine if ships could dial in a system to system warp (mechanics aside for now) the way they do it in our favorite science fiction worlds like Star Trek and Star Wars.

(Though as I recall from Tie Fighter there are such things are Gravity Wells - I think - memory is old on this)


Imagine what this would do to small fleet PVP?

Imagine the end of gate camps, a damaging way to play for both the campers and the campees. Seriously, if you can sit at a gate all day for a KM, you have the same dysfunction as an apergian ISK-snatching miner in high sec for whom tanking their ship was considered sacrilege.

Imagine what this would do for nullsec. I have "imitated" the effects of system to system warp by using wormholes. I have spent MONTHS. Yes, MONTHS, in nullsec without seeing another ship. I said MONTHS.

That's how deserted it is out there, because the nullsec overlords have their renters manning gank pipelines, where people who are just as weird as highsec miner/grinders will sit at a gate all day killing everything that's "not blue". Nullsec is indeed safer than highsec if it can be said that you are 100 percent safe when nobody is in local. I have seen KMs of T3 cruisers that were caught off stations in low structure because someone volleyed it with a BS just to get a T3 kill and Concorde be damned (heck I think anybody would be enticed by that and anybody hanging off a station in a T3 with nearly no structure left is a kind of stupid begging to be "cured").

Imagine those gate camps replaced by combat patrols. Imagine being able to "raid" nullsec. Oh the overlords in CSM would never accept that. They like to raid highsec though.


Now imagine ships being able to dial in system to system warp, AND resources becoming limited such that a moon can be sucked dry and have to be left alone for a time, and high sec systems to eventually be cleared of rocks too. If you want to build 20 titans tomorrow, you could do so, but run out of natural resources, then you have to avoid "stupid ship loss" or you are done. Imagine when everybody and their brother is running missions and eventually the pirate factions are like "Everybody and their brother is here to kill us. Time to move out". Yes, even the missions dry up.

People forced to spread out...

Why, this might actually become a true PVP game fueled by the very same thing that fuels all conflict (known as "limited resources") instead of corporatism being protected by a ring of gank.

Let ships warp on their own, and things will be stirred up big time. Everybody says this is a sandbox, yet imagine a sandbox where there are only certain paths you can go on to get from one end to the other. Not really a sandbox then.


Would it be bad? Well, making resources expire would be bad for the ISK ISK and more ISK player who can mine and mission mindlessly all day with their eye on their wallet. It would be bad for the KM-addicts who can sit on a gate all day and have nothing else to do but kill everything that moved for no reason. Why rag on a playstyle one would ask? But it never feels like the people involved in these playstyles are actually playing a game. I think ritalin is involved. Or maybe it's self-abuse. Make system to system warp possible and all mining/mission resources finite and we actually have a game.



Getting whatever space or resources over there and be able to keep them would be different than now that everything is about TCU IHUB and whatnot structures boring shooting and sit still on the passive defensive capabilities this mechanic is about on top of Gates passive defensive intell (which is different from local) "hey I'm here I'm gonna mess with your crap and shite on your shoes".

Small gangs could harass large coalitions and fleets because those couldn't predict at any point from where and how many you could be or come from, defending and keeping your space would require different organization but also increase players interactions and most important make the unpredictable factors stronger.

How many chances you have to see a large super/titan fleet it it's not because some FC did a stupid thing with his tràlàlà (NC 16 Supers killed last year and DBRD mistake leading to one of the best and huge epic fights), or because they're burning some TCU IHUB?

Choke points have their advantages for some game style but those are always one sided and probably most of these in favor for the defender very little to none for the aggressor.

Small roaming fleets of frigs or cruisers could do some stuff but their "small stuff" would have a meaning and effect on the defender no matter how large this one could be, the "butterfly effect" reinforced, right now those are just entertaining tourists that have no chance of disrupting whatever and once they get a bit too noisy and jerk talking you just undock the required stuff and get them a fast pod ticket home with a 52.

Gates have advantages it's undeniable but other optional traveling ways should exist to increase players decisions and actions leading to effective unpredictable consequences.
On the negative side gates are also a dead trap possible to make it so there's no way in hell you can go through by any means unless you have a far largest number of mates than those camping., this is not really pvp, it's ducks games but with spaceships.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne

ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2013-05-29 16:57:42 UTC
GreenSeed wrote:
think of games like SoaSE, that gravity well system can easily give eve another 10 years. or something more freeform like giving every ship a miniature JumpDrive and using stars as static Cynos. we could go jumping from star to star, so long as the destination star is within range.


Isn't star to star static position to static position, just as gates does? SoaSE's gravity well system was neaaaaaaaat but doesn't allow for easy bottlenecking (and thereby tactical deployment) as gates do.

Dodixie > Hek

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