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Why is there no way for us to attack supply lines in eve?

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#121 - 2013-05-29 15:51:32 UTC
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:
You can improve 0.0 industry, sure, and its the right thing to do. But if logistics come with basically 0 cost 0.0 will still have to compete with highsec production.
The only place where logistics come with zero costs is in highsec, which is part of the massive industry imbalance that means null industry can't ever compete.

In highsec, jump capable ships are not an issue and you can attack those supply lines.

Quote:
as you notice i see easy logistics differently then you, for me it is a vailabe factor (and it would have PvP benefits).
…and any solution to the actual problem with “solve” the supposed problem of easy logistics as a side-effect. So going after the rather irrelevant symptom rather than the cause is downright wasteful and would only serve to make everyone's lives more miserable.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#122 - 2013-05-29 15:52:11 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Jowen Datloran wrote:
Though, I am still living in the hope that one day all low sec systems will have cynosural blockers.

ban capitals from low-sec totally?

maybe this is good idea....


DBRB suggested this at the nullsec round table & CCP laughed at him.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Gwenywell Shumuku
#123 - 2013-05-29 16:01:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Gwenywell Shumuku
Tippia wrote:
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:


[quote]as you notice i see easy logistics differently then you, for me it is a vailabe factor (and it would have PvP benefits).
…and any solution to the actual problem with “solve” the supposed problem of easy logistics as a side-effect. So going after the rather irrelevant symptom rather than the cause is downright wasteful and would only serve to make everyone's lives more miserable.


Hm, ok, maybe i don't see it (happens some times), but how would that bring anything to the pvp-table again? Remember please that the topic of "more pvp opportunities" is one that really is important for 0.0 dwellers. Comming back to the topic, we lost that component with everything "jump" (JFs beeing the latest and most powerfull addition) and went to "get them in highsec".

I'm not as ready as you to just accept that it has to be like now for ever forever...but i'm repeating myself now, i made this point clear a long time ago.
Tarsas Phage
Sniggerdly
#124 - 2013-05-29 16:01:23 UTC
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:

I think JFs are a solution for a percieved problem back when Titans got used for bridging convoys. Only a few big blocks had Titans back then, so the necessity arose to make it easier for everyone else as there was a REAL fear that one entity could dominate through "capital ship superiority".

Now, we know how that turned out, everything "jump" is just common and no problem anymore. Maybe its time to revisit the solution to a problem that no longer exists? (see tread title).


Well, sure, JFs make certain and formerly onerous aspects of logistics a cinch to do.

There's one aspect, and this is a game design aspect, that I think is overlooked too often, however. To wit:

We all play this game, for the most part, to PVP or at least to shoot stuff, even if the targets are red crosses. Hauling and logistics in any of its forms is a means to that end. If I log on to Eve after rolling in from a day at work and want to shoot stuff - but wait, I need ships, ammo, modules and all the stuff to do shooting with, I need to get those things to where I am first.

Would I be happy having to wait, perhaps for days, for the next alliance convoy to get these things through? Will I want to have to go through the stress, banality, and poor risk/reward ratio of scouting a hauler full of my next week's PVP supplies through however many jumps of lowsec and then 0.0? No, I won't be happy with the game if I have to spend countless hours, stress, and trouble of just getting ready to do what this game is urging everyone to do - shoot things. Sure, convoys are a nice target and can generate PVP opportunities, but if that's what 0.0 is reduced to, only the largest entities will be able to muster the manpower to form an appropriate escort fleet. Are you in a 20 player corp with at most %50-%70 concurrent activity living in deep lowsec or NPC 0.0? Too bad. You wouldn't have enough people to form a viable escort even if you had everyone online and willing to go. You barrier to entry to having an established PVP presence is even further reduced.
Arcelian
0nus
#125 - 2013-05-29 16:01:25 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:
You can improve 0.0 industry, sure, and its the right thing to do. But if logistics come with basically 0 cost 0.0 will still have to compete with highsec production.
The only place where logistics come with zero costs is in highsec, which is part of the massive industry imbalance that means null industry can't ever compete.

In highsec, jump capable ships are not an issue and you can attack those supply lines.

Quote:
as you notice i see easy logistics differently then you, for me it is a vailabe factor (and it would have PvP benefits).
…and any solution to the actual problem with “solve” the supposed problem of easy logistics as a side-effect. So going after the rather irrelevant symptom rather than the cause is downright wasteful and would only serve to make everyone's lives more miserable.


Nerfing JF could create a problem with the current state of things, but I fail to see how there is already a problem to begin with. When was it decided that null sec should be self-sustaining, completely or mostly independent from empire?
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#126 - 2013-05-29 16:03:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:
Because some genius decided it would be cool to have cyno-bridges and cyno-freighters, listening to the 0.0 "lazy" crowd.

There was a time, between freighter introduction and cyno-bridges (way before jumpfreighters), when 0.0 ppl hauled stuff in with large freighter convoys. I still have fraps footage of epic convois.

Yes, sometimes it was tedious, but heck what a thrill when hostiles tried to intercept you. I was lucky to be part of 2 campaigns where we had to do stuff like this, i will always remember.

Then ppl started to use Titans to bridge freighters (lol), the less rich used carriers (at least still having to cross high/lowsec) and later use cyno-bridge networks (the end of 0.0 logistics) and then jump-freighters (beating the already dead horse again eliminating even the highsec/lowsec jump).




Why is it that the people who talk most about emergent play and "this is an MMO you will interact" only do so when ganking hapless miners and haulers, but imply that their instant travel capability is OP and denies just that, suddenly they change their tune.

Sad thing is, because only some ships and some organizations with the resources can go system to system so easily, but nobody else, is what has managed to build the "great wall of carebear" comprised of gank pipelines full of renters and a dead lowsec and destruction of a legitimate form or play ("real piracy" not this shipraep KB-horing crap they loosely call piracy) .

Either the jump capability should go, or ALL ships should have this capability.



In the end though, mechanics aside, it's the convoys that are missing. Could there be another reason to have them? Perhaps instead of nerf bats, something else could help.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#127 - 2013-05-29 16:09:19 UTC
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:


[quote]as you notice i see easy logistics differently then you, for me it is a vailabe factor (and it would have PvP benefits).
…and any solution to the actual problem with “solve” the supposed problem of easy logistics as a side-effect. So going after the rather irrelevant symptom rather than the cause is downright wasteful and would only serve to make everyone's lives more miserable.


Hm, ok, maybe i don't see it (happens some times), but how would that bring anything to the pvp-table again? Remember please that the topic of "more pvp opportunities" is one that really is important for 0.0 dwellers. Comming back to the topic of the tread, we lost that component with everything "jump" (JFs beeing the latest and most powerfull addition) and went to "get them in highsec".


That's because you are only looking at one side of the coin.

The other side of the coin is that "logistics" in EVE is vulnerable at the end points, not the "middle". you can attack supply lines in high sec (if you are willing to suicide and do a little bit of research into which npc characters are supplying a null alliance's low sec drop-off points), and you can disrupt the "intake" areas in null sec (camp jump beacon, pop any cyno that pops up in any station system which at least causes Jf pilots a bit of fear because the might no land where they thought they would).

Doing the things necessary to force people to use "convoys" that could be attacked would mess up a lot of other areas of EVE. The end result wouldn't be more old school 2003-4 style convoys, it would be "screw null, too much work for a game, lets go do something else". It can't be 2003-4 again unless you kick about 9/10s to the population of EVe out of the game so that it could work.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#128 - 2013-05-29 16:10:29 UTC
Alphea Abbra wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
What's the reward for manufacturing in 0.0 instead of hisec?

YOU are CSM member.
YOU say us: why YOU ask CCP to buff industry in 0.0 if there is no reward of doing industry there.
You just answered that yourself.
The buff is needed because there are no rewards for 0.0 industry.

there will be no rewards for industry as long as you can move goods cheap and safe from high-sec. People mentioned it many times.

You can have huge asteroid belts right next to your station - but mining in high-sec is still safer.
You can have millions of refining/manufacturing slots - but your outpost can be taken from you
You can take all risks and still manufacture and sell stuff - but other person will just bring JF from high-sec and outbid you on market.

Alphea Abbra wrote:
Then maybe, if the combined effect of making 0.0 industry viable and/or either adding costs or effort to HS industry, 0.0 industry becomes a thing.

this.
- 0.0 industry needs a buff
- logistics needs a nerf

And that's strange that out CSM representatives only speak about 1st half of the problem. And completely ignore 2nd half.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#129 - 2013-05-29 16:11:34 UTC
Arcelian wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:
You can improve 0.0 industry, sure, and its the right thing to do. But if logistics come with basically 0 cost 0.0 will still have to compete with highsec production.
The only place where logistics come with zero costs is in highsec, which is part of the massive industry imbalance that means null industry can't ever compete.

In highsec, jump capable ships are not an issue and you can attack those supply lines.

Quote:
as you notice i see easy logistics differently then you, for me it is a vailabe factor (and it would have PvP benefits).
…and any solution to the actual problem with “solve” the supposed problem of easy logistics as a side-effect. So going after the rather irrelevant symptom rather than the cause is downright wasteful and would only serve to make everyone's lives more miserable.


Nerfing JF could create a problem with the current state of things, but I fail to see how there is already a problem to begin with. When was it decided that null sec should be self-sustaining, completely or mostly independent from empire?


Last year, I believe. CCP Soundwave said that wanted null to be "99%" self sufficient.

When was it decided that null should be utterly dependant?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#130 - 2013-05-29 16:12:08 UTC
Arcelian wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:
You can improve 0.0 industry, sure, and its the right thing to do. But if logistics come with basically 0 cost 0.0 will still have to compete with highsec production.
The only place where logistics come with zero costs is in highsec, which is part of the massive industry imbalance that means null industry can't ever compete.

In highsec, jump capable ships are not an issue and you can attack those supply lines.

Quote:
as you notice i see easy logistics differently then you, for me it is a vailabe factor (and it would have PvP benefits).
…and any solution to the actual problem with “solve” the supposed problem of easy logistics as a side-effect. So going after the rather irrelevant symptom rather than the cause is downright wasteful and would only serve to make everyone's lives more miserable.


Nerfing JF could create a problem with the current state of things, but I fail to see how there is already a problem to begin with. When was it decided that null sec should be self-sustaining, completely or mostly independent from empire?



Hello

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/devblog/2011/nullsec-board-for-blog.jpg
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#131 - 2013-05-29 16:13:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:
Hm, ok, maybe i don't see it (happens some times), but how would that bring anything to the pvp-table again?
Yes. How would having local resource gathering, transports through gates and to POSes, and short-distance moves to local markets in null possible bring anything ot the PvP table? Roll

Quote:
Comming back to the topic, we lost that component with everything "jump"
…apart from the fact that no, you really didn't. It just moved to a different part of space.

Arcelian wrote:
Nerfing JF could create a problem with the current state of things, but I fail to see how there is already a problem to begin with. When was it decided that null sec should be self-sustaining, completely or mostly independent from empire?
It never was. The problem is that with the current design, large portions of game content are rendered useless due to the massive imbalance in terms of costs, ease of logistics, safety, availability of resources, availability of services and general ease of use that highsec offers.

The game is inherently designed so that no area can be even mostly independent, but it is also designed so that only a very small portion of space can take advantage of local resources in any meaningful way. This in spite of the game content geared towards providing that kind of local ownership. If the availability and usefulness of local resources goes up, then so does the usage of that content and so does the traffic to, from, and near those resources.

That means more stuff to shoot.
Arcelian
0nus
#132 - 2013-05-29 16:17:47 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Arcelian wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:
You can improve 0.0 industry, sure, and its the right thing to do. But if logistics come with basically 0 cost 0.0 will still have to compete with highsec production.
The only place where logistics come with zero costs is in highsec, which is part of the massive industry imbalance that means null industry can't ever compete.

In highsec, jump capable ships are not an issue and you can attack those supply lines.

Quote:
as you notice i see easy logistics differently then you, for me it is a vailabe factor (and it would have PvP benefits).
…and any solution to the actual problem with “solve” the supposed problem of easy logistics as a side-effect. So going after the rather irrelevant symptom rather than the cause is downright wasteful and would only serve to make everyone's lives more miserable.


Nerfing JF could create a problem with the current state of things, but I fail to see how there is already a problem to begin with. When was it decided that null sec should be self-sustaining, completely or mostly independent from empire?


Last year, I believe. CCP Soundwave said that wanted null to be "99%" self sufficient.

When was it decided that null should be utterly dependent?


Apparently it was decided a long time ago that null needed to rely on empire, due to a lack of lower end minerals, and the issue you seem to be very well acquainted with, manufacturing slots. It's hard for me to believe no one saw that bottleneck. So CCP saw these massive freighter convoys and was like, "Huh, that's weird." I think not. This null sec independence is very much a new idea imo.

That being said I'm all for null sec self reliance. I think it's a great idea.
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#133 - 2013-05-29 16:21:04 UTC
Bryla Jax wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
At the moment manufacturers are "FORCED" into hi-sec. Rest assured that your noble CSM representatives are currently working with CCP on how to make 0.0 manufacturing a viable option.



No jump--->less items from high sec to null sec--->more manufacturing in null sec to supply---> 0.0 manufacturing a viable option

You clearly don't know anything about manufacturing.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#134 - 2013-05-29 16:22:13 UTC
March rabbit wrote:

- 0.0 industry needs a buff
- logistics needs a nerf

And that's strange that out CSM representatives only speak about 1st half of the problem. And completely ignore 2nd half.
Nah. It's just that the former makes the latter a moot point.
Andrea Griffin
#135 - 2013-05-29 16:25:09 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
I can absolutely promise that the changes won't make everyone happy.
My dear, if you aren't making someone upset, you're not doing it right.

CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#136 - 2013-05-29 16:29:02 UTC
Like anything that is currently busted in nullsec it needs accompanying changes, or it just makes it even less desirable to be there doing stuff in nullsec; it's the same as the need to implement more local and regional conflict drivers before the otherwise necessary nerf to current power projection. Why go through the massive hassle of a convoy, when you have even less reason to be there in the first place? Overall a logistics nerf would inarguably be a massive hit to pvp in nullsec. On the other hand, a logistics nerf would go hand-in-hand with a huge boost to nullsec industry.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Arcelian
0nus
#137 - 2013-05-29 16:32:38 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:
Hm, ok, maybe i don't see it (happens some times), but how would that bring anything to the pvp-table again?
Yes. How would having local resource gathering, transports through gates and to POSes, and short-distance moves to local markets in null possible bring anything ot the PvP table? Roll

Quote:
Comming back to the topic, we lost that component with everything "jump"
…apart from the fact that no, you really didn't. It just moved to a different part of space.

Arcelian wrote:
Nerfing JF could create a problem with the current state of things, but I fail to see how there is already a problem to begin with. When was it decided that null sec should be self-sustaining, completely or mostly independent from empire?
It never was. The problem is that with the current design, large portions of game content are rendered useless due to the massive imbalance in terms of costs, ease of logistics, safety, availability of resources, availability of services and general ease of use that highsec offers.

The game is inherently designed so that no area can be even mostly independent, but it is also designed so that only a very small portion of space can take advantage of local resources in any meaningful way. This in spite of the game content geared towards providing that kind of local ownership. If the availability and usefulness of local resources goes up, then so does the usage of that content and so does the traffic to, from, and near those resources.

That means more stuff to shoot.


Ok so I understand that high sec industry is easier than null sec. I suppose the restrictions on outposts and null sec industry in general are too harsh. But then that asks the question, why were they put there in the first place? Some kind of balance I suppose. Where do you draw the line?

I guess the whole concept of JF's contradicts the idea that only the areas close to a portion of space can benefit from its resources. I think it's a pretty bold statement to say that improved null sec industry will bring more players to null sec, though.
Stonecrusher Mortlock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2013-05-29 16:33:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Stonecrusher Mortlock
Malcanis wrote:
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
Why is there no way for us to attack supply lines in eve?

The addition of Jump capable ships, made supplying large groups less of a chore, but had the adverse effect of making supply lines completely immune to attack in any meaningful form.


http://eve-kill.net/?a=home&scl_id=600

There sure are a lot of "completely immune to attack in any meaningful form" ships dying out there.





I to can link a KB that lists a lot of freighter kills of NONE alliance logistics freighters and JF's, i do know there are pubbie tards getting killed in there shiny freighters, but there jumping there crap or some friends crap. Thos do not equal the supply's of these alliances.


I clearly state ALLIANCE Level Logistic's and you give me a KB full of random no name alliance Line member's.





Edit : did i just have a CSM try and turn this thread into a whine thread about how highsec is so much better than null?



NO, just no, you come into a thread about supply interdiction and whine about having to get supply's and suggest to make Null even less required to move things and easier to do? Your hole Whine would do nothing but make null sec full of instant docking mining fleets because, LOCAL.
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#139 - 2013-05-29 16:35:56 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
there will be no rewards for industry as long as you can move goods cheap and safe from high-sec. People mentioned it many times.
And they have been wrong each time. Smile
The problem isn't that you can move goods cheap - but that to get goods they have to be moved.
If you have an amount of minerals in 0.0 or HS, all things equal it will be cheapest to build where you are, since transporting it either way will incur costs (Establishing routes, fuel if using JF, risk, profit if there is a middleman).
If 0.0 can build most of what it needs on its own, the costs of logistics would make it most practical to DIY.

Quote:
You can have millions of refining/manufacturing slots - but your outpost can be taken from you
You can take all risks and still manufacture and sell stuff - but other person will just bring JF from high-sec and outbid you on market.
Well, for vulnerable stations... same goes for assets, research POS's and supercap production POS's.
For those who use JF's to import - yeah they can, because of the impossibility of 0.0 to actually produce to meet any kind of demand. If 0.0 could produce to meet their own demand, industry would spring up to compete with HS+logistics. If 0.0 could produce to meet their own demand, while being able to compete with HS in buildcost and ease, it would put most logistics out of business.
Freighting in supplies would (nearly) only be until you set your own industry up.

Quote:
this.
- 0.0 industry needs a buff
- logistics needs a nerf

And that's strange that out CSM representatives only speak about 1st half of the problem. And completely ignore 2nd half.
Why does logistics need a nerf? If 0.0 industry was viable, logistics comes pre-nerfed.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#140 - 2013-05-29 16:37:12 UTC  |  Edited by: De'Veldrin
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:
to the problem that 4 ppl with JFs can take care of 1000ppl, which, its exactly my point Bear


This isn't necessarily a problem. Consider the modern farming industry - at no point in human history have so few fed so many. So why is it a problem based simply on numbers that 4 people can take care of 1000. Especially when you consider that in any given alliance, roughly 35-50% (yes, I made those up, but I doubt they're far from wrong in the general case) of the characters are alts who have specialized uses (such as scouting, scanning, cynos, etc) and are therefore not reliable, constant consumers of the industrial base. (i.e. a scanning alt doesn't often have to buy a new ship, and the ship is so specialized, it's not likely all the parts will be available on the local market anyway, unless you live next door to a major alliance that makes that sort of esoteric stuff in house).

So what you really have is 4 people supplying say ~600 characters with the tools they need to survive in nullsec. That's not really that far-fetched, to be honest.

Also, when people say the sky is falling, it might pay to look up once in a while on the off chance they're right.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.