EVE General Discussion

You have to go to hisec to participate in it

The fact that majority of JF kills happen in hisec only proves that JFs are nearly invulnerable in low and null. Of course the real solution is to improve nullsec industry, but making dishonest claims that current supply routes aren't too safe doesn't advance the discussion.

@baltec1

Ok, valid question at first, lets have a look at that situation. Someone lives "behind" enemy lines yes? Ask why is that? Lets see:

- if he is stronger then you, he can protect his convois, chance for you to hurt him in the process as "weaker" alliance.

- if he is weaker then you, then he is still there because you TOLERATE him anyways, right? i mean, you can take you capital
fleet and stomp him any day you want. He is NOT there because he can bring a JF in, he is there because you want him to. If you want that, let his convois through (or use them as fun-pvp without killing everyone)

- If i decide to live behind enemy lines i make sure i can live there. If i can't by myself, and i have no allies to help me or treaties to pass through, OR treaties with YOU to buy stuff from you (business opportunity?), then maybe its not the right region for me, yes?

Thats why geography mattered one time (before jumpdrives), smaller entities prefered 0.0 close to highsec, larger alliances took advantage of other regions, deeper in 0.0, INCREASING the logistics effort. It worked before, it would work now. PPL adapt.

Judging by this, Malcanis supports the idea of removal of easy jump freight provided that outposts are balanced to having the same or greater capacity as highsec.

That actually sounds like a fair balance - remove jump bridges, bridging and jump freighters, much like in highsec, and give them the industrial output of highsec. Plus you get the rarer ores and the T2 moon materials - I'm not seeing a big problem.

The JF will spend much more time in hi-sec because it has to travel from gate to gate (At least to get into hi-sec). It's only to be expected that that's where the majority of them die. You seem to be stuck on the idea that JFs "ought" to die more in 0.0, but JFs are almost entirely used to shuttle high end minerals to hi-sec and finished goods out. The Hi-sec part of the operation is just as big a part of their use-case as 0.0. I think you are labouring under an unexamined assumption: Why should JFs die more in 0.0 than hi-sec?

Also: How safe is "too safe"? What's an acceptable loss percentage in your eyes? Is it compatible with the current build cost of a JF? If JFs were made less safe, would you accept a lower cost for them?

@Tippia

So you are supplieing a region/alliance/market/corp with only 4 ppl and minimal risk right? And that doesn't make my point?

Now, you know i don't want to **** on your parade right, i don't care how you make your money, you do what the game lets you.

But in no way shape or form do i think this is GOOD for 0.0 logistics. What YOU can do every 0.0 big alliance can do, creating big problems and making 0.0 industry worthless.



please, take the time to read all i wrote before responding. the solution is in my posting. you may not like it, but it worked BEFORE.

Maybe a better solution would have been wormholes, having more miners / production types in your alliance, and changes to make nullsec more capable of independence.

The ease of logistics makes nullsec production rather meaningless. It's infinitely easier to mine, produce, and jump from highsec than it is to do anything in null. It's also incredibly safe if you're not a raging idiot. Null sec with good intel channels is in many ways safer than highsec, and definitely safer than low.

Anyway; imagine if cynos were removed. This would cause:

1. Nullsec systems that border empire space to be valuable, since they are the entry points.
2. The ability to exert some control over local markets, since moving goods in is more difficult.
3. Industrialists to have real importance to nullsec alliances.
4. Convoys to need escorts, which increases player-to-player interaction.
5. Alliances on the outer edges of null to look towards the gate keepers for non-aggression / protection agreements.

As far as gameplay experiences goes, I don't really see much of a downside. I can understand wanting to keep cynos though, since it makes things everything so darn easy and safe - but Eve isn't about easy or safe.

Besides: If the wormhole guys can figure out logistics, the great, powerful, all knowing nullsec alliances can manage somehow I'm sure.

Malcanis et al. in the new CSM are working on making null more independent anyway, so once that is implemented, some kind of axe to the cyno convoy might be implemented. That would hurt NPC nullsec, but maybe some other solution could be found for that.

Ta for the advice. My Eve history started in May 2003. I know the past. You on the other hand live there.

We used carriers to jump in supplies. Convoys were only used by the big block players who could protect them.

How exactly do you think you can stop the PL super fleet? Or a goon suicide dread force? The game is not as it once was, when we did see convoys there were fewer carriers in the entire game than are currently in some corps.

yeah cynos never get used to make things unsafe or uneasy

@baltec1

you talked about living behind enemy lines and not beeing able to without JFs (or carriers before). Now, i told you that smaller entities lived near highsec BECAUSE of that problem. See the solution right there?

If you really think you live behind enemy lines because you have a JF or 2, think again. The enemy lets you live there, he can stomp you any day.