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Why is there no way for us to attack supply lines in eve?

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Gwenywell Shumuku
#21 - 2013-05-29 10:50:55 UTC
Easy gameplay mechanics encurage stupidity. Stupidity will never go away, doesn't matter how easy you make any activity. So ppl still die, as it SHOULD be.

The problem is that ppl not sleeping while playing will never die again doing logistics. I did logistics for a 100ppl corp in deepest 0.0 ALONE for 4 months...thats how broken the system is.

CCPs motivation was to bring more ppl to 0.0. Making it easy to get stuff there should accomplish that, they thought. Well, all they got was 0.0 folk saying "oh, look, we don't need that many ppl now, lets do all the logistics with fewer ppl = more money for us".

All this jumping around and easy logistics made it way to easy to hold and control large amounts of space without anyone living in it. Enjoy todays 0.0.
Bryla Jax
AeD Corp
#22 - 2013-05-29 10:58:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Bryla Jax
Grimpak wrote:

it wasn't awesome. it was a friggin' nerve trainwreck. I can assure you that planning a freighter convoy in the days before POS jumpgates and JF's was the equivalent of planning to cart several tons of fresh meat in the open thru a stretch of several thousand kilometeres.

and every milimeter of that path has one hundred hungry lions waiting for you.


so yeah, it was a feat back in the day. you needed careful planing, your whole alliance would've been in constant CTA for maybe 2-3 days, you would need forward fleets, rear fleets, guarding fleets, scouts for each fleet (yeah you would keep scouts 5-10-15 jumps away, both ways and even sideways), coordinate the massive intel flow generated by these scouts and worry about spies, saboteurs, login traps, setup alternative routes, and prepare to log out pretty much all freighters in an instant's notice and keep them logged out, maybe for even more than a week to make them arrive safely.


tedious, and stressfull. I can see why JF's were a breath of fresh air on this, but then again, maybe they made it too easy.


So more player iteraction, more 0.0/low sec pvp, more alliance importance, more importance to strategic system.

Yep, it's obvious why they remove that featureRoll
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#23 - 2013-05-29 10:58:41 UTC
It still wasn't enough to stop us from being terrible at this game.
Gwenywell Shumuku
#24 - 2013-05-29 10:59:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Gwenywell Shumuku
Malcanis wrote:
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:
Because some genius decided it would be cool to have cyno-bridges and cyno-freighters, listening to the 0.0 "lazy" crowd.


Well if you want to punish us by nerfing our outposts to only having the 68050 build slots that hi-sec enjoys, make them invulnerable like hi-sec, make the good refineries also have plenty of slots like hi-sec, have unlimited office slots like hisec, make the supply of high-bulk low-end minerals in 0.0 sufficient to build from like hi-sec, make 0.0 ore anoms worth as much as hi-sec minerals, then I guess we'll be as hardworking as the hi-sec industrialist community too.


Oh please, i hope you are smarter than this, because if this is how you work on the CSM...
EDIT: i see your trolled there a bit hm? ;) i take this issue very serous though, i have seen the good and bad times, and i don't like the "easy going" mentality at all that has become 0.0 life.

Easy logistics do 1 thing, and 1 thing only: make 0.0 small scale markets superfluous as you import EVERYTHING end export EVERYTHING to highsec to buy/sell high-volume.

For some time, a short time, we had at least some in-space logistics coming out of this, thus giving opportunity for PvP. That doesnt exist anymore, if you are no moron nobody will EVER catch you.

Risk/Reward, yes? Isn't that what we cry out for....
Bryla Jax
AeD Corp
#25 - 2013-05-29 11:04:08 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
At the moment manufacturers are "FORCED" into hi-sec. Rest assured that your noble CSM representatives are currently working with CCP on how to make 0.0 manufacturing a viable option.



No jump--->less items from high sec to null sec--->more manufacturing in null sec to supply---> 0.0 manufacturing a viable option
Mhax Arthie
Doomheim
#26 - 2013-05-29 11:04:14 UTC
Uhm, freighter convoys... yummy! Just yesterday passed a huge freighter convoy in hi sec somewhere around Rens, there was about more than 20 Charon's on each side of the gate. I would love to see something like this in low and null sec!
ACE McFACE
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#27 - 2013-05-29 11:10:40 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Debora Tsung wrote:
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:

There was a time, between freighter introduction and cyno-bridges (way before jumpfreighters), when 0.0 ppl hauled stuff in with large freighter convoys. I still have fraps footage of epic convois.

Yes, sometimes it was tedious, but heck what a thrill when hostiles tried to intercept you. I was lucky to be part of 2 campaigns where we had to do stuff like this, i will always remember.


That sounds awesome tbh. That's exactly what I imagined what our duties as alliance members would be when our corp first joined an alliance. Instead we got Structure bashing and cta's when yet another group of roamers got to close to us. We left a few months later.

it wasn't awesome. it was a friggin' nerve trainwreck. I can assure you that planning a freighter convoy in the days before POS jumpgates and JF's was the equivalent of planning to cart several tons of fresh meat in the open thru a stretch of several thousand kilometeres.

and every milimeter of that path has one hundred hungry lions waiting for you.


so yeah, it was a feat back in the day. you needed careful planing, your whole alliance would've been in constant CTA for maybe 2-3 days, you would need forward fleets, rear fleets, guarding fleets, scouts for each fleet (yeah you would keep scouts 5-10-15 jumps away, both ways and even sideways), coordinate the massive intel flow generated by these scouts and worry about spies, saboteurs, login traps, setup alternative routes, and prepare to log out pretty much all freighters in an instant's notice and keep them logged out, maybe for even more than a week to make them arrive safely.


tedious, and stressfull. I can see why JF's were a breath of fresh air on this, but then again, maybe they made it too easy.

Sounds so much better than "Wake up at 2am to shoot at a tower that will probably have no one defending it, if I don't see you in fleet you get kicked."

Now, more than ever, we need a dislike button.
Othran
Route One
#28 - 2013-05-29 11:11:35 UTC
Mhax Arthie wrote:
Uhm, freighter convoys... yummy! Just yesterday passed a huge freighter convoy in hi sec somewhere around Rens, there was about more than 20 Charon's on each side of the gate. I would love to see something like this in low and null sec!


Well you'd have to nerf the crap out of cynos/bridges - and probably supercaps as well.

So it isn't going to happen. Simple as that.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2013-05-29 11:16:40 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
Why is there no way for us to attack supply lines in eve?

The addition of Jump capable ships, made supplying large groups less of a chore, but had the adverse effect of making supply lines completely immune to attack in any meaningful form.


http://eve-kill.net/?a=home&scl_id=600

There sure are a lot of "completely immune to attack in any meaningful form" ships dying out there.

Yeah because titans are supply ships. Pretty sure he's talking about cargo ships, the ones that you could actually hunt in null. The ones that would occasionally be full of mega and zyd. He's absolutely right too, having had the pleasure of hunting those ships way back then, there was some risk to null seccers. Now there's none.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#30 - 2013-05-29 11:29:34 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
Why is there no way for us to attack supply lines in eve?

The addition of Jump capable ships, made supplying large groups less of a chore, but had the adverse effect of making supply lines completely immune to attack in any meaningful form.


http://eve-kill.net/?a=home&scl_id=600

There sure are a lot of "completely immune to attack in any meaningful form" ships dying out there.

Yeah because titans are supply ships. Pretty sure he's talking about cargo ships, the ones that you could actually hunt in null. The ones that would occasionally be full of mega and zyd. He's absolutely right too, having had the pleasure of hunting those ships way back then, there was some risk to null seccers. Now there's none.


You know that there's no Rhea class titans, right?

Look at that page again.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#31 - 2013-05-29 11:30:47 UTC
Bryla Jax wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
At the moment manufacturers are "FORCED" into hi-sec. Rest assured that your noble CSM representatives are currently working with CCP on how to make 0.0 manufacturing a viable option.



No jump--->less items from high sec to null sec--->more manufacturing in null sec to supply---> 0.0 manufacturing a viable option


3% of the build capacity of hi-sec -> carry right on building in hi-sec

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#32 - 2013-05-29 11:31:42 UTC
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:
Because some genius decided it would be cool to have cyno-bridges and cyno-freighters, listening to the 0.0 "lazy" crowd.


Well if you want to punish us by nerfing our outposts to only having the 68050 build slots that hi-sec enjoys, make them invulnerable like hi-sec, make the good refineries also have plenty of slots like hi-sec, have unlimited office slots like hisec, make the supply of high-bulk low-end minerals in 0.0 sufficient to build from like hi-sec, make 0.0 ore anoms worth as much as hi-sec minerals, then I guess we'll be as hardworking as the hi-sec industrialist community too.


Oh please, i hope you are smarter than this, because if this is how you work on the CSM...
EDIT: i see your trolled there a bit hm? ;) i take this issue very serous though, i have seen the good and bad times, and i don't like the "easy going" mentality at all that has become 0.0 life.

Easy logistics do 1 thing, and 1 thing only: make 0.0 small scale markets superfluous as you import EVERYTHING end export EVERYTHING to highsec to buy/sell high-volume.

For some time, a short time, we had at least some in-space logistics coming out of this, thus giving opportunity for PvP. That doesnt exist anymore, if you are no moron nobody will EVER catch you.

Risk/Reward, yes? Isn't that what we cry out for....


What's the reward for manufacturing in 0.0 instead of hisec?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2013-05-29 11:31:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Grimpak
Bryla Jax wrote:
Grimpak wrote:

it wasn't awesome. it was a friggin' nerve trainwreck. I can assure you that planning a freighter convoy in the days before POS jumpgates and JF's was the equivalent of planning to cart several tons of fresh meat in the open thru a stretch of several thousand kilometeres.

and every milimeter of that path has one hundred hungry lions waiting for you.


so yeah, it was a feat back in the day. you needed careful planing, your whole alliance would've been in constant CTA for maybe 2-3 days, you would need forward fleets, rear fleets, guarding fleets, scouts for each fleet (yeah you would keep scouts 5-10-15 jumps away, both ways and even sideways), coordinate the massive intel flow generated by these scouts and worry about spies, saboteurs, login traps, setup alternative routes, and prepare to log out pretty much all freighters in an instant's notice and keep them logged out, maybe for even more than a week to make them arrive safely.


tedious, and stressfull. I can see why JF's were a breath of fresh air on this, but then again, maybe they made it too easy.


So more player iteraction, more 0.0/low sec pvp, more alliance importance, more importance to strategic system.

Yep, it's obvious why they remove that featureRoll

well, from a logistical standpoint, previous model was a nightmare, specially when your alliance lived some 50 jumps away from the nearest hisec.

and back then sov wars was basically who put up more POSes in the system and there was no system-wide bonuses. hell outposts weren't even a year old, and we didn't even knew wtf was a mothership or a titan.

ACE McFACE wrote:
Sounds so much better than "Wake up at 2am to shoot at a tower that will probably have no one defending it, if I don't see you in fleet you get kicked."

waking up at 2am to shoot a tower seemed much better than waking up at 00.00,to do about 4 hours of pathfinding, travel upwards with the convoy, arrive at destination at about 6-8am, getting 2-3 hours of sleep, do about 4 hours of scouting upwards and downwards the route, travel another 2-4 hours slower than snail's pace, and that's considering you don't get any hostiles in the way.


it wasn't pretty, it was too hard. JF's came and made it too easy.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
HalfArse
Wixo Trading Co.
#34 - 2013-05-29 11:41:16 UTC  |  Edited by: HalfArse
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:
Because some genius decided it would be cool to have cyno-bridges and cyno-freighters, listening to the 0.0 "lazy" crowd.

There was a time, between freighter introduction and cyno-bridges (way before jumpfreighters), when 0.0 ppl hauled stuff in with large freighter convoys. I still have fraps footage of epic convois.


When i finished reading the OP i was going to mention this too :P convoys were awesome fun - going through 30 odd 0.0 jumps at freighter speed could be tedious but fleet comms always made up for it and the constant tension of being hit kept it exciting - listening to all the scout reports and co-coordinating the escorts to move into blocking positions for possible threats etc

I guess itl be impossible to remove jump freighters from the game :( tho i reckon they could stop titans/pos bridges from being able to bridge freighters - but without removing jump freighters itd be kinda pointless.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#35 - 2013-05-29 11:42:51 UTC
Malcanis wrote:


You know that there's no Rhea class titans, right?

Look at that page again.


I know you nullseccers regard suicide ganking as the pinnacle of EVE PVP, but posting a page where the discussed JFs are mostly killed by ganks in Forge doesn't really prove your point.

.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#36 - 2013-05-29 11:53:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Roime wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


You know that there's no Rhea class titans, right?

Look at that page again.


I know you nullseccers regard suicide ganking as the pinnacle of EVE PVP, but posting a page where the discussed JFs are mostly killed by ganks in Forge doesn't really prove your point.





Why not?

How else would one kill a cargo ship with no module slots than with a "gank"? I'm interested to hear your 'non-gank' methodology of doing so. Convo the pilot, challenge him to rock-paper-scissors and the loser honourably self destructs? Please do enlighten us "nullseccers".


Who do you think is operating those JFs? "Even hi-seccers" aren't sufficiently uninformed of game mechancis to use a JF to move materials from one hi-sec system to another. Not after the first cyno fails, anyway. So what's your objection? Aren't JFs killed in the Forge dead enough for you?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#37 - 2013-05-29 11:54:46 UTC
HalfArse wrote:


When i finished reading the OP i was going to mention this too :P convoys were awesome fun - going through 30 odd 0.0 jumps at freighter speed could be tedious but fleet comms always made up for it and the constant tension of being hit kept it exciting - listening to all the scout reports and co-coordinating the escorts to move into blocking positions for possible threats etc

I guess itl be impossible to remove jump freighters from the game :( tho i reckon they could stop titans/pos bridges from being able to bridge freighters - but without removing jump freighters itd be kinda pointless.


They could divide every JF in the game by 3; so if you own one then now you own 3, the cargo cap is a third if what it used to be as is the materials list to produce one.

So now there are a lot more JF's moving around making smaller runs. Block freighters from bridging and increase null industrial capacity in a big way, now people have some choices to make.

It might be a better balance between interesting and tedium.
Gwenywell Shumuku
#38 - 2013-05-29 12:05:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Gwenywell Shumuku
@Malcanis

For a moment there i thought you were just trolling, but seems you are not.

What the reward would be (you asked me) as an industrialist in 0.0? As always, ISK. For an alliance = availability of stuff....thats the reward. NOT having to bring it in from Highsec. That makes an industrialist vailable to the alliance, now industrialists are good and welcome, and you probably get even more ISK out of it because of bulk guaranteed buyorders from the alliance.

Saving HOURS of TEDIUM LOGISTICS is what drives 0.0 markets....got the point? Probably not...where you even around during freighterruns? I just ask because i want to know if we discuss at the same level here.

Tedium brings opportunity for ppl who aleviate that tedium for others to make profit of of ppl who don't want tedium. Its not that difficult to imagine, is it? Pilots are always willing to pay more in 0.0 if they get that fitted ship asap, well, at least if logistics are difficult.


Now, for the gank in highsec....really? If thats "working mechanics" for you, doing highsec ganks on JFs to stop alliance logistics, then we probably have nothing else to discuss here. Thats just way to different world views on how fun and working EvE PvP should look like to create more PvP in 0.0.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#39 - 2013-05-29 12:11:01 UTC
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:
@Malcanis

For a moment there i thought you were just trolling, but seems you are not.

What the reward would be (you asked me) as an industrialist in 0.0? As always, ISK...


And how is this extra ISK obtained? By playing Somerblink during the additional hauling overhead because refineries are always in a different system than factory stations? By the shortage of low end materials? The small market population?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#40 - 2013-05-29 12:11:09 UTC
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:


Oh please, i hope you are smarter than this, because if this is how you work on the CSM...
EDIT: i see your trolled there a bit hm? ;) i take this issue very serous though, i have seen the good and bad times, and i don't like the "easy going" mentality at all that has become 0.0 life.

Easy logistics do 1 thing, and 1 thing only: make 0.0 small scale markets superfluous as you import EVERYTHING end export EVERYTHING to highsec to buy/sell high-volume.

For some time, a short time, we had at least some in-space logistics coming out of this, thus giving opportunity for PvP. That doesnt exist anymore, if you are no moron nobody will EVER catch you.

Risk/Reward, yes? Isn't that what we cry out for....


With or without jump freighters we would be importing just about everything because we simply cannot make it out in null.