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Shields ability to 1 slot tank Incursions is killing Incursion tank balance between shields/armour
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Andrew Indy
Cleaning Crew
#61 - 2013-05-21 05:11:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrew Indy
Calgrissom Torvec wrote:
If it make you feel better darth CCP is nerf batting Shield ships with the TE nerf. Armor should be happy now that your scripted TC ships just jumped ahead in the game a bit.

Also lets not forget on and armor BS ship you have 10-15k of shield buffer to give your logi time to get you locked and repped. If a shield ship isn't locked and repped before it runs into armor it can be a bad day for the pilot a good portion of the time.


The shield buffer is OK however it only works for the first time you take agro, Its pretty common to see that bar full red for most of the day and even agro from a single esyter will keep it at zero.

Also my Pally has a TE and 2 TCs and most of the NM fits I have seen have a TE and 2-3 TCs so the TE nerf is not a huge deal.


Quote:
This is all rather misleading, the emphasis should be on how much 'Shield' or 'Armor' you have, total EHP is useless in terms of logistics. I run with 12k shield, as that is the only part my logi can fix it is also the only part I put my emphasis on. I know with 70% resist that I can take approximately a 30k(room)volley before I need to panic: in a room that is producing 3k to 5k (Room)dps that gives me 3 seconds to broadcast and the logis have 4 to 8 seconds to get reps on me.

The same is true for armor but add the 3 to 4 seconds for the cycles to finish. So by that supposition I would say armor needs and extra 3 second buffer to compensate for the cycle time, or an additional 1k armor for every 3k (Room) DPS per second of buffer needed.


A good Pally (like the ones mentioned above) has about 16k Armour which works out about the same as your calcs, cycle time is about 4 seconds so with 1k armour per second + your base 12k.
BlackPyroStorm
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#62 - 2013-05-21 21:54:16 UTC
I thought it quite amusing that I could use a ship with a damage control and 1 em rig (with ogb) and still tank fine for vanguards using shield logi ofc.
Not sure what armour people are complaining about. If armour and shield reps functioned the same at the beginning of the cycle armour would become way too overpowered.

Maybe if armour reps had a reduced cycle time but a reduced rep amount to keep them balanced at least reps could be applied quicker.
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2013-05-22 01:02:37 UTC
BlackPyroStorm wrote:
I thought it quite amusing that I could use a ship with a damage control and 1 em rig (with ogb) and still tank fine for vanguards using shield logi ofc.
Not sure what armour people are complaining about. If armour and shield reps functioned the same at the beginning of the cycle armour would become way too overpowered.

Maybe if armour reps had a reduced cycle time but a reduced rep amount to keep them balanced at least reps could be applied quicker.

Please explain how making two things the same makes one overpowered.
BlackPyroStorm
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#64 - 2013-05-22 16:45:09 UTC  |  Edited by: BlackPyroStorm
If armour had the ability to rep at the beginning of cycle combined, along with passive omni resist mods and ability to utilise slave implants, they would dominate over shields, making buffer shield tanks considerably less effective in comparison.
Also the upcoming tracking enhancer nerf benefiting armour tanked ships which have a better ability to fit tracking computers
Weasel Juice
Mayhem and Destruction
#65 - 2013-05-23 01:55:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Weasel Juice
The whole thread is nonsense.

Armor has about the same potential as shield. You can get a comparable one-slot tank set-up, that is easier to fit, much cheaper - on any ship, even the Nightmare, while keeping the same amount of damage mods and comparable tracking. With the upcoming TE nerf, they should be on an equal level (potential wise).

The great difference is the mentality of the pilots. When I started playing Eve directly after the initial nerf last year, I saw people flying with 300kEHP Bhaalgorns and 4 logis in VGs in TDF, while ISN was flying with tanks that really have not changed. People demanded that I put a 1600mm plate and 3 trimarks on my Legion with a-type gear and HG slaves in my head, stating that it was absolutely necessary, while ISN asked me to drop my Scimitar down to one invuln field.

Considering that the *difficulty* had not changed (they didn't really add more DPS, they just required that we killed more ships, especially the Mara in OTA which was notoriously hard to kill), it was really funny the big warning sign in the TDF MOTD, stating that every pilot now needs to have a 1600mm plate fitted.

It's a devils circle right now, since Shield has the only elite communities left, which pushes any new recruits looking for high performance incursions into shields. Any armor fanboys will look at incursions, and see really crappy TDF pub fleets with low efficiency.


I'm willing to bet you my incursion Mach, that if ICU employed their doctrine with armor, it would be just as effective.


The only issues I could possibly see is in shiny HQ fleets, where the delayed reps actually make a huge difference, but only on the most extreme fleets. But that is an entirely different story, since you have HQ slaves and the slot 10 hardwiring to provide a substantial buffer increase over shield, that should more than compensate for delayed reps.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#66 - 2013-05-23 02:20:10 UTC
Weasel Juice wrote:
Armor has about the same potential as shield.


This guy gets it.
Frooth
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#67 - 2013-05-26 16:21:10 UTC
Its time to grow some balls and start min-maxing Armor fits. but i guess thats to scary so lets fly with 3 logi aswel so we dont loose our over tanked ships.

WHERE DID THE LEGION FLEETS GO ?
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#68 - 2013-05-26 16:43:26 UTC
Frooth wrote:
Its time to grow some balls and start min-maxing Armor fits. but i guess thats to scary so lets fly with 3 logi aswel so we dont loose our over tanked ships.

WHERE DID THE LEGION FLEETS GO ?


Legion fleets left the building because CCP screwed them by effing with the fleet compostitions of NPCs thus nerfing Vanguards & essentially leaving HQ sites as they were for the Escalation nerf.
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Frooth
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#69 - 2013-05-26 17:38:58 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Frooth wrote:
Its time to grow some balls and start min-maxing Armor fits. but i guess thats to scary so lets fly with 3 logi aswel so we dont loose our over tanked ships.

WHERE DID THE LEGION FLEETS GO ?


Legion fleets left the building because CCP screwed them by effing with the fleet compostitions of NPCs thus nerfing Vanguards & essentially leaving HQ sites as they were for the Escalation nerf.


SO THATS WHY. i always thought i scared them away with my rawrrrr powaahhh of shield carebearing
Thorleifer
Yeti Cave
#70 - 2013-05-26 22:49:56 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Turelus wrote:
Serious and no trolling meant.
Why didn't you use the year gone to train shields? If there is a more efficient way to do something which is proving better why not move over to it? if CCP then nerf that and make armour better you can just switch back.
CCP don't do FOTM they seem to like FOTY more... from my own experience you're better just moving to what works best and using it then expecting them to ever fix something they broke.


I guess I just like to fight the power.
But really should 1 tank have such an advantage in PvE while the other has just a slight advantage in PvP?


Really? so because one is better then another at 1 thing, they should buff across the board and make it all out of balance everywhere else. Sure that makes sense.
Kranyoldlady
Women's cave
#71 - 2013-05-28 17:45:39 UTC
What is this tank you talk about?
Zwo Zateki
Doomheim
#72 - 2013-05-28 19:05:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Zwo Zateki
Unlike the naysayers I totally agree with the OP. Nightmares can easily fit 1 mid-slot + 1 rig tank for VGs or 1 mid + 1 low + 1 rig for AS or HQ. And you don't need LSE since shield xfers rep immediately.
Frooth wrote:
Its time to grow some balls and start min-maxing Armor fits. but i guess thats to scary so lets fly with 3 logi aswel so we dont loose our over tanked ships.

You do understand that armor reps need to cycle before they rep, right?

http://cvmkr.com/R4JG
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#73 - 2013-05-29 01:15:38 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
I'm hoping that the Paladin's NAPOC's new tracking bonuses will put it closer to par with the NM as an effective armour Incursion ship in VG's maybe as a sniper too to hit the Mara's in NCS Assaults

Edit I was mistaken about Paladin getting a tracking bonus mixing it up with the Navy Apocalypse
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Zwo Zateki
Doomheim
#74 - 2013-05-29 02:17:52 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
I'm hoping that the Paladin's tracking bonuses will put it closer to par with the NM as an effective armour Incursion ship but its sig radius still makes it squish as heck.

Paladin's what? *chokes*

http://cvmkr.com/R4JG
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#75 - 2013-05-29 04:02:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Paikis
Zwo Zateki wrote:
Unlike the naysayers I totally agree with the OP. Nightmares can easily fit 1 mid-slot + 1 rig tank for VGs or 1 mid + 1 low + 1 rig for AS or HQ. And you don't need LSE since shield xfers rep immediately.
Frooth wrote:
Its time to grow some balls and start min-maxing Armor fits. but i guess thats to scary so lets fly with 3 logi aswel so we dont loose our over tanked ships.

You do understand that armor reps need to cycle before they rep, right?


Nightmare with 1 Pithum A-type Invulnerability Field and 1 Large Core Defence Field Extender II, as well as perfect Tengu Boosts:
Resists: 59.9/67.9/75.9/79.9
Shield eHP: 55,302
Total eHP: 83,338

Um... a single low slot is enough to tank a Paladin in Vanguards, but lets go ahead and give numbers for a single low and a rig.

Paladin with 1 Corelum A-type EANM and 1 Large Trimark Armour Pump II, with perfect Legion boosts... and SLAVES:
Resists: 77.6/70.8/70.6/73.1
Armour eHP: 74,677
Total eHP: 103,491

Note please that the Paladin has about 25% more total eHP, and almost 50% more armour eHP than the Nightmare has shield eHP. Take the rig out and the Paladin still beats the Nightmare. Also, please note that the Nightmare has a huge EM hole, where the paladin has all its resists over 70.

1 slot tank on the Paladin beats a 2 slot tank on the Nightmare. WHY ARE WE STILL CONTINUING THIS THREAD!?
Zwo Zateki
Doomheim
#76 - 2013-05-29 07:25:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Zwo Zateki
Paikis wrote:
Zwo Zateki wrote:
Unlike the naysayers I totally agree with the OP. Nightmares can easily fit 1 mid-slot + 1 rig tank for VGs or 1 mid + 1 low + 1 rig for AS or HQ. And you don't need LSE since shield xfers rep immediately.
Frooth wrote:
Its time to grow some balls and start min-maxing Armor fits. but i guess thats to scary so lets fly with 3 logi aswel so we dont loose our over tanked ships.

You do understand that armor reps need to cycle before they rep, right?


Nightmare with 1 Pithum A-type Invulnerability Field and 1 Large Core Defence Field Extender II, as well as perfect Tengu Boosts:
Resists: 59.9/67.9/75.9/79.9
Shield eHP: 55,302
Total eHP: 83,338

Um... a single low slot is enough to tank a Paladin in Vanguards, but lets go ahead and give numbers for a single low and a rig.

Paladin with 1 Corelum A-type EANM and 1 Large Trimark Armour Pump II, with perfect Legion boosts... and SLAVES:
Resists: 77.6/70.8/70.6/73.1
Armour eHP: 74,677
Total eHP: 103,491

Note please that the Paladin has about 25% more total eHP, and almost 50% more armour eHP than the Nightmare has shield eHP. Take the rig out and the Paladin still beats the Nightmare. Also, please note that the Nightmare has a huge EM hole, where the paladin has all its resists over 70.

1 slot tank on the Paladin beats a 2 slot tank on the Nightmare. WHY ARE WE STILL CONTINUING THIS THREAD!?

Wrong rig: put an anti-EM rig, no shiny NM flies with CDFE.

I do agree though that 2-mid-slot + DCU looks a lot better on a NM. Anti-Therm rig + EM amp + A-type invul + boosts yields >80% resists across the board.

http://cvmkr.com/R4JG
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#77 - 2013-05-29 08:20:22 UTC
Zwo Zateki wrote:
Wrong rig: put an anti-EM rig, no shiny NM flies with CDFE.

I do agree though that 2-mid-slot + DCU looks a lot better on a NM. Anti-Therm rig + EM amp + A-type invul + boosts yields >80% resists across the board.


EM-rig changes the numbers, but the Paladin is still better with only the EANM.
Vizvig
Savage Blizzard
#78 - 2013-05-29 08:29:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Vizvig
Hahaha just train shields and stop whining.

btw I have 2 expensive fitted armour ships for incursions. Shields is OP everywhere(not only in PVE), by desing. But I am sure that nobody cares.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#79 - 2013-05-29 21:52:10 UTC
Zwo Zateki wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
I'm hoping that the Paladin's tracking bonuses will put it closer to par with the NM as an effective armour Incursion ship but its sig radius still makes it squish as heck.

Paladin's what? *chokes*


OopsOpps my bad: I meant the NAPOC Oops
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Zwo Zateki
Doomheim
#80 - 2013-05-29 22:33:41 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Zwo Zateki wrote:
Wrong rig: put an anti-EM rig, no shiny NM flies with CDFE.

I do agree though that 2-mid-slot + DCU looks a lot better on a NM. Anti-Therm rig + EM amp + A-type invul + boosts yields >80% resists across the board.


EM-rig changes the numbers, but the Paladin is still better with only the EANM.

It is NOT about better but about "enough". Again, armor ships need considerably more buffer because of how armor reps work.

http://cvmkr.com/R4JG