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Concrete in our sandbox - A feedback thread.

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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2013-05-28 16:35:12 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Its identical to WoW, in WoW the pinnacle of success in raiding, in EvE is null sec alliances, sov and associated play.

How did you figure this out? Joining an alliance and living in null is just one option of many.

Really? So I have just as much ability and reward other than the numbers if I hang in low sec or high sec or wormhole space? Cool I'm off to buy a titan and mothership to zip around high sec in. Then I'll claim Sov in a system I like. After that Ill declare war on 100 of the biggest alliances and bubble a gate in low sec to kill them.

No I wont will I. If I did any of those things the logical and sandbox thing would be for sandbox players to kill my capitals, kick me out of my system and pod kill me at my bubble. However game mechanics don't allow me to do any of those sandbox things. My sandbox play is artificially limited by design.


CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Rhea Rankin Nolen
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-05-28 16:36:43 UTC
Anne Blitz wrote:

forced this and forced that.


..and forced camera move during new jump transitions!
Castor II
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2013-05-28 16:39:18 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Its identical to WoW, in WoW the pinnacle of success in raiding, in EvE is null sec alliances, sov and associated play.

How did you figure this out? Joining an alliance and living in null is just one option of many.

Really? So I have just as much ability and reward other than the numbers if I hang in low sec or high sec or wormhole space? Cool I'm off to buy a titan and mothership to zip around high sec in. Then I'll claim Sov in a system I like. After that Ill declare war on 100 of the biggest alliances and bubble a gate in low sec to kill them.

No I wont will I. If I did any of those things the logical and sandbox thing would be for sandbox players to kill my capitals, kick me out of my system and pod kill me at my bubble. However game mechanics don't allow me to do any of those sandbox things. My sandbox play is artificially limited by design.




This is the stupidest post I've read all day
Beaver Retriever
Reality Sequence
#24 - 2013-05-28 16:41:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Beaver Retriever
Infinity Ziona wrote:
CCP has been doing this for years. There is no sandbox thats really just a myth now. EvE is as structured as WoW.

In a sandbox game devs create rules (high, low, null, game mechanics (ex - players should be relative safe in high, less safe in low, not safe in null)), create tools (ships, modules, skills) then the players create the content.

But thats not how EvE works anymore. It was but its slowly been whittled away by nerfs and changes to the point that to do anything other than what the Devs want is pointless, they want you joining a big cookie cutter alliance. Ships come prenerfed towards that goal. Modules are restricted in use or unavailable unless you go cookie cutter alliance play.

Its identical to WoW, in WoW the pinnacle of success in raiding, in EvE is null sec alliances, sov and associated play. Where is the sandbox?

Well, you certainly aren't bitter and myopic.

There's a shitload of playstyles and communities available. You're not able to see them because you only see the most visible portion of the community, the most media-friendly.

Blame CCP some more for your own lack of vision, will you?

Infinity Ziona wrote:

Really? So I have just as much ability and reward other than the numbers if I hang in low sec or high sec or wormhole space? Cool I'm off to buy a titan and mothership to zip around high sec in. Then I'll claim Sov in a system I like. After that Ill declare war on 100 of the biggest alliances and bubble a gate in low sec to kill them.

No I wont will I. If I did any of those things the logical and sandbox thing would be for sandbox players to kill my capitals, kick me out of my system and pod kill me at my bubble. However game mechanics don't allow me to do any of those sandbox things. My sandbox play is artificially limited by design.



You don't have infinite of everything and can't build an empire playing solo? OMG WHERE IS MY SANDBOX?

Okay, I'll try to take this abortion of a post seriously for a second. A fun fact for you to ponder, if you ever 'ponder' anything at all; many large nullsec alliances use wormhole divisions as their main income, or as a very large part of their income.

Did I shatter your hermetically sealed glass house yet?
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#25 - 2013-05-28 16:46:52 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
A good sandbox is one where the game 's challenges are derived from other players not the game interface.


Then why has EVE become Dotlan Overlord Online?

Sov is a mechanic, not a sand box feature.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2013-05-28 17:06:33 UTC
Beaver Retriever wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
CCP has been doing this for years. There is no sandbox thats really just a myth now. EvE is as structured as WoW.

In a sandbox game devs create rules (high, low, null, game mechanics (ex - players should be relative safe in high, less safe in low, not safe in null)), create tools (ships, modules, skills) then the players create the content.

But thats not how EvE works anymore. It was but its slowly been whittled away by nerfs and changes to the point that to do anything other than what the Devs want is pointless, they want you joining a big cookie cutter alliance. Ships come prenerfed towards that goal. Modules are restricted in use or unavailable unless you go cookie cutter alliance play.

Its identical to WoW, in WoW the pinnacle of success in raiding, in EvE is null sec alliances, sov and associated play. Where is the sandbox?

Well, you certainly aren't bitter and myopic.

There's a shitload of playstyles and communities available. You're not able to see them because you only see the most visible portion of the community, the most media-friendly.

Blame CCP some more for your own lack of vision, will you?

Infinity Ziona wrote:

Really? So I have just as much ability and reward other than the numbers if I hang in low sec or high sec or wormhole space? Cool I'm off to buy a titan and mothership to zip around high sec in. Then I'll claim Sov in a system I like. After that Ill declare war on 100 of the biggest alliances and bubble a gate in low sec to kill them.

No I wont will I. If I did any of those things the logical and sandbox thing would be for sandbox players to kill my capitals, kick me out of my system and pod kill me at my bubble. However game mechanics don't allow me to do any of those sandbox things. My sandbox play is artificially limited by design.



You don't have infinite of everything and can't build an empire playing solo? OMG WHERE IS MY SANDBOX?

Okay, I'll try to take this abortion of a post seriously for a second. A fun fact for you to ponder, if you ever 'ponder' anything at all; many large nullsec alliances use wormhole divisions as their main income, or as a very large part of their income.

Did I shatter your hermetically sealed glass house yet?

You only accomplished making yourself look foolish. Numbers naturally prevent any single person from conquering EvE. Thats fine and natural. Thats sandbox.

The mechanics I mentioned however could and would be controlled by numbers. Adding limitations to prevent a player from creating content naturally is not sandbox. Its the opposite.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2013-05-28 17:16:17 UTC
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
aye but the beef seems to be mostly that you can't do things like launch single probes around your ship like you can now.

And the problem is what exactly?

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Kult Altol
The Safe Space
#28 - 2013-05-28 17:25:23 UTC
I'm more worried about the kitty poop in my sand box.

[u]Can't wait untill when Eve online is Freemium.[/u] WiS only 10$, SP booster for one month 15$, DPS Boost 2$, EHP Boost 2$ Real money trading hub! Cosmeitic ship skins 15$ --> If you don't [u]pay **[/u]for a product, you ARE the [u]**product[/u].

Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#29 - 2013-05-28 17:28:15 UTC
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
aye but the beef seems to be mostly that you can't do things like launch single probes around your ship like you can now.

And the problem is what exactly?


they appear around the sun and there's lots of them? other people have novel techniques and this is a pain?

not that i care it's much better for basic scanning.

forums.  serious business.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#30 - 2013-05-28 17:46:51 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Really? So I have just as much ability and reward other than the numbers if I hang in low sec or high sec or wormhole space? Cool I'm off to buy a titan and mothership to zip around high sec in. Then I'll claim Sov in a system I like. After that Ill declare war on 100 of the biggest alliances and bubble a gate in low sec to kill them.

No I wont will I. If I did any of those things the logical and sandbox thing would be for sandbox players to kill my capitals, kick me out of my system and pod kill me at my bubble. However game mechanics don't allow me to do any of those sandbox things. My sandbox play is artificially limited by design.

What does this have to do with raiding in WoW and its relationship to the EvE Online experience?

Infinity Ziona wrote:
The mechanics I mentioned however could and would be controlled by numbers. Adding limitations to prevent a player from creating content naturally is not sandbox. Its the opposite.

What numbers? And since when is a sandbox not a box? Of course it has limitations, it wouldn't be a game without them.

Oh god.
Mara Villoso
Long Jump.
#31 - 2013-05-28 18:15:13 UTC
Anne Blitz wrote:
waaaah. In the old days life was hard, so it should be hard for everyone, forever. We should also get rid of warp to zero. We should go back to courier contracts that only hold 120k m3. I once got DD'd with the old style AoE, bring that back too. Horses. Definitely bring back horses. And buggies. Also, telegraphs. We should all play EVE via telegraph. Waaah, change and progress make me cranky and confused.
Anne Blitz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2013-05-28 19:15:21 UTC
Mara Villoso wrote:
Anne Blitz wrote:
waaaah. In the old days life was hard, so it should be hard for everyone, forever. We should also get rid of warp to zero. We should go back to courier contracts that only hold 120k m3. I once got DD'd with the old style AoE, bring that back too. Horses. Definitely bring back horses. And buggies. Also, telegraphs. We should all play EVE via telegraph. Waaah, change and progress make me cranky and confused.


Whoa! Keep that troll on it's leash, would you? Did you even read a single word of what I wrote?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#33 - 2013-05-28 19:52:04 UTC
Anne Blitz wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
A good sandbox is one where the game 's challenges are derived from other players not the game interface.


I would very much like you to elaborate on this. What is it actually supposed to mean? It could be read as both agreeing and disagreeing.


I don't know how to make it any plainer.

As for "agreeing" with the OP, I have no horse in this race.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#34 - 2013-05-28 20:05:48 UTC
Removal of options does not necessarily equal to better interfaces, just simpler.



.
Mara Villoso
Long Jump.
#35 - 2013-05-28 20:28:28 UTC
Anne Blitz wrote:
Mara Villoso wrote:
Anne Blitz wrote:
waaaah. In the old days life was hard, so it should be hard for everyone, forever. We should also get rid of warp to zero. We should go back to courier contracts that only hold 120k m3. I once got DD'd with the old style AoE, bring that back too. Horses. Definitely bring back horses. And buggies. Also, telegraphs. We should all play EVE via telegraph. Waaah, change and progress make me cranky and confused.


Whoa! Keep that troll on it's leash, would you? Did you even read a single word of what I wrote?

Every one of them. Your post, like so many before it and so many that will follow it, is predicated on the idea that change in EVE is bad, the past was better in some way, and that there is no opportunity for fine tuning in the future and so, therefore, we should all be up in arms to let CCP know that EVE is dying (Soon).

Every release has hiccups and rough edges. CCP has demonstrated a willingness to listen to the player base and make improvements on their design changes (and you can see this for yourself by visiting the original probe changes thread in the Test Server Feedback subforum, where you'll note the furor over having max 7 probes). Couching your position on any particular feature as though you were at war with CCP is not constructive and doesn't actually give the devs anything to work with.

As for trolling, you should talk. You posted the umpteenth "EVE is Dying" thread in GD. Apparently EVE has been dying for 10 years. Spare us the hyperbole and poorly mixed metaphors (see what I did there? mix? concrete? first you're talking concrete but then we're children with sand in our shorts.)
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#36 - 2013-05-28 20:48:31 UTC
You're reading stuff into the OP that simply isn't there.

There's not much subjective change resistance in saying that Odyssey scanning changes limit player options and remove tactics, it's a fact.

The change you mention was fixing a major design oversight that was brought to their attention by the testers, not reacting to player feedback.

.
Raven Solaris
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2013-05-28 21:08:49 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
A good sandbox is one where the game 's challenges are derived from other players not the game interface.


You do realise that the OP was basically saying the new system makes it more tedious/difficult for veteran probers with styles that differ from the ones the new system tries to force you to use, right?
Anne Blitz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2013-05-28 21:09:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Anne Blitz
Mara Villoso wrote:
Anne Blitz wrote:
Mara Villoso wrote:
Anne Blitz wrote:
waaaah. In the old days life was hard, so it should be hard for everyone, forever. We should also get rid of warp to zero. We should go back to courier contracts that only hold 120k m3. I once got DD'd with the old style AoE, bring that back too. Horses. Definitely bring back horses. And buggies. Also, telegraphs. We should all play EVE via telegraph. Waaah, change and progress make me cranky and confused.


Whoa! Keep that troll on it's leash, would you? Did you even read a single word of what I wrote?

Every one of them. Your post, like so many before it and so many that will follow it, is predicated on the idea that change in EVE is bad, the past was better in some way, and that there is no opportunity for fine tuning in the future and so, therefore, we should all be up in arms to let CCP know that EVE is dying (Soon).

Every release has hiccups and rough edges. CCP has demonstrated a willingness to listen to the player base and make improvements on their design changes (and you can see this for yourself by visiting the original probe changes thread in the Test Server Feedback subforum, where you'll note the furor over having max 7 probes). Couching your position on any particular feature as though you were at war with CCP is not constructive and doesn't actually give the devs anything to work with.

As for trolling, you should talk. You posted the umpteenth "EVE is Dying" thread in GD. Apparently EVE has been dying for 10 years. Spare us the hyperbole and poorly mixed metaphors (see what I did there? mix? concrete? first you're talking concrete but then we're children with sand in our shorts.)


So that's a no, then? You did not read it.

This is not about any specific feature being added. I said I don't care about scanning and probing. I specifically said that EvE is not dying.

Improvements is good, change is often good. I do think EvE should be made easier to understand and get into. All of these things are clear in my post.

What is also clear is my actual point. I don't like to see choice being taken away and I am afraid that we will see more of it if it's not clear enough that it's not ok. Sure, make things simpler, but don't remove the option of having it advanced. Why would you do that? Because an advanced option would be overpowered? Don't make it overpowered. All I want is a balance.

Not constructive? Fine. It seems to me that you think the opinions of the other posters in this thread are my opinions. Don't do that.

edit: Oh and I am terribly sorry that my metaphors aren't good enough for you. And no, I don't know what a hyperbole is, f*ck me right?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#39 - 2013-05-28 21:32:56 UTC
Raven Solaris wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
A good sandbox is one where the game 's challenges are derived from other players not the game interface.


You do realise that the OP was basically saying the new system makes it more tedious/difficult for veteran probers with styles that differ from the ones the new system tries to force you to use, right?


I don't see a need for further comment.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#40 - 2013-05-28 23:28:28 UTC
Or you can take a different perspective. If things are made more accessible with an ever growing population, the competition for resources will eventually force people where?

Level 4's made harder last expansion.

Exploration dumbed down and given a co-op feature this expansion. Mining anoms now scannable.

CCP is lowering reward in hi sec, by spreading the wealth, while actively raising it in other areas. All under the guise of "making it easier" for newbs. Yes, it will be easier for newbs to start in hi sec, but harder for them to stay there.

Is everyone happy?