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Odyssey - CNR & Golem math - need some help
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Lemok Sonji
Lethal Devotion
Escalation Theory
#1 - 2013-05-26 13:51:44 UTC
Currently I'm flying a CNR and skilling up for a Golem.

I'm considering using the golem with cruise missiles instead of the usual torpedo because of the range and easier to apply damage.

I'm trying to figure the numbers, and see what works better.
The CNR has the explosive radius bonus and extra rig, while the Golem has the TP bonus and explosive velocity bonus. I'm using EFT to get the explosive and

My base to calculate is the 935 base dps (CNR and Golem are similar in this, 8 launchers vs 4 with 100% extra damage, same ROF).

I'm looking at applied damage on targets before resists (makes it easier to compare).

What I come up with is this:

On an elite cruiser with 125 signature and 360 speed:
CNR with RF TP + 2xRigor2 + 1xFlare2 = 2,254.76 applied damage
Golem with 2xRF TP + 2xRigor2 = 2,628.01 applied damage
Golem with 1xRF TP + 2xRigor2 = 2,034.32 applied damage

On an elite frigate with 38 signature and 360 speed:
CNR with RF TP + 2xRigor2 + 1xFlare2 = 764.99 applied damage
Golem with 2xRF TP + 2xRigor2 = 891.62 applied damage
Golem with 1xRF TP + 2xRigor2 = 690.20 applied damage

On BS with 380 signature and 280 speed:
CNR with RF TP + 2xRigor2 + 1xFlare2 = 7,771.96 applied damage
Golem with 2xRF TP + 2xRigor2 = 7,989.34 applied damage
Golem with 1xRF TP + 2xRigor2 = 7,012.14 applied damage


So basically, if I'm looking at better applied dps and better tanking option, using the golem will be better and I it also change to do a bit less dps in favor or much better tank on some missions.

Looking at a golem with torpedo and 3xRF TPs, the TP stacking penalty just doesn't make it worth the time. Torpedo applied damage is much lower than the cruise missiles.
On that same BS with rage torpedo, the golem will do 6,180.34 damage, on the elite crusier it will do 1,653.76, and on the frigate it will do 522.83 damage. Even with quicker ROF, it will take a bit more time to finish most NPCs. Javelin are a bit better but still not as good as cruiser missiles.

Is the math correct or did I miss something?

Cheers.
Austin McLaren
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2013-05-26 14:49:55 UTC
The Navy Raven and cruise missiles both recently met tiericide, the Golem has not neither have torpedos, go ahead and skill for a Golem as you can be pretty certain it will be buffed this year along with changes to Torps to make them more useable and possibly given more damage.
Be patient and enjoy the CNR untill CCP release more information.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#3 - 2013-05-26 15:51:12 UTC
Lemok Sonji wrote:
Is the math correct or did I miss something?Cheers.


Come Odyssey the Golem 100% totally and completely in all possible situations obsoletes the CNR for PVE purposes. They deal the same EFT DPS (4*2 vs 8*1 eff launchers) while the Golem has significantly better damage application (explo velocity + painter bonus vs explo radius).

Here's an interesting post that illustrates what I'm talking about. The use case is against Angels, which have historically been the hardest to apply damage to. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3054824#post3054824

tl;dr: Skill for the Golem. Its way better.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
stoicfaux
#4 - 2013-05-26 15:53:09 UTC
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=230551&find=unread

Download the spreadsheet and plug in your EFT numbers into the "missile profiles" sheet. You can compare your missile profiles against various NPC targets.



Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Lemok Sonji
Lethal Devotion
Escalation Theory
#5 - 2013-05-26 16:34:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Lemok Sonji
Thanks for the links and the tips.

I found the error in my calculations (the TP penalty stack was off) and the numbers pretty much correspond to the linked spreadsheets.

Yeah, it seems that cruise golem with 2xTP is the best way to go (3xTP is a bit pushing it I think). Even though it seems that torpedo can out dps the cruise on paper, I think in real time on most missions, the cruise missile easy range takes the cake.

Cheers. Helped me realized I made the right decision :)

I'm also tempted to bring a "just tank" SNI ship or similar with 3 TPs on one of my alts and see things go boom :P
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#6 - 2013-05-26 17:44:34 UTC
Lemok Sonji wrote:
I'm also tempted to bring a "just tank" SNI ship or similar with 3 TPs on one of my alts and see things go boom :P


Bring a turret ship if you're going to bring another ship. It really helps with the small fry like frigates and the like. An artillery loki with web works really well.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Guywood Threepbrush
Motsu Mission Monkeys
#7 - 2013-05-28 19:10:11 UTC
Just to add an interesting titbit:

Despite Angels being the worst to go up against due to high movement speeds and small signatures, 2xBLA comes out ahead of 2xRigor.

At least for an Angel Extravaganza it does, with and without the bonus room!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#8 - 2013-05-28 19:33:32 UTC
Guywood Threepbrush wrote:
Just to add an interesting titbit:

Despite Angels being the worst to go up against due to high movement speeds and small signatures, 2xBLA comes out ahead of 2xRigor.

At least for an Angel Extravaganza it does, with and without the bonus room!


Yes, I mentioned that in the thread I linked earlier. You probably want a T2 BLA instead of 2 T1s though.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Guywood Threepbrush
Motsu Mission Monkeys
#9 - 2013-05-28 20:05:04 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Guywood Threepbrush wrote:
Just to add an interesting titbit:

Despite Angels being the worst to go up against due to high movement speeds and small signatures, 2xBLA comes out ahead of 2xRigor.

At least for an Angel Extravaganza it does, with and without the bonus room!


Yes, I mentioned that in the thread I linked earlier. You probably want a T2 BLA instead of 2 T1s though.

-Liang


yes ofc.
I wonder if this changes if the mission is more cruiser heavy.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#10 - 2013-05-28 23:05:57 UTC
Guywood Threepbrush wrote:

yes ofc.
I wonder if this changes if the mission is more cruiser heavy.


I guess the real question is whether or not you want to have multiple Golems sitting around for running each type of mission. If you want to go that route, take a look at the spreadsheet and check it out. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Guywood Threepbrush
Motsu Mission Monkeys
#11 - 2013-05-29 07:22:38 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Guywood Threepbrush wrote:

yes ofc.
I wonder if this changes if the mission is more cruiser heavy.


I guess the real question is whether or not you want to have multiple Golems sitting around for running each type of mission. If you want to go that route, take a look at the spreadsheet and check it out. :)

-Liang


eh, can always use a Rigor'ed CNR to do the missions that aren't completed faster by a BLA Golem.
Still, BLA being better for angels regardless of what you're shooting at is just really surprising.
I remember enough of those warlords sometimes not taking full damage from a torp volley and as a consequence, not dying in 3 volleys!
Lugalzagezi666
#12 - 2013-05-29 08:29:04 UTC
Guywood Threepbrush wrote:
I remember enough of those warlords sometimes not taking full damage from a torp volley and as a consequence, not dying in 3 volleys!


Npc rats sometimes pulse their mwds when they are not in their optimal. If you hit them when they just turned off their mwd but still have the speed, they will mitigate more damage than usual. If you hit them when they have their mwd turned on, they will mitigate much less damage (sig rad malus for npcs is 500% but speed bonus only 200%). Usually you can use it for your benefit or avoid losing damage by imperfect projection if you watch velocity column in overview.
Guywood Threepbrush
Motsu Mission Monkeys
#13 - 2013-05-29 13:37:38 UTC
Dang.

Just realised the Golem doesn't have enough cal. to fit more than a BLAII and a bag of chips.
BLAII and RIG1 aren't that much faster than double RIG and you'll lose out on missions with fewer bships than AE.

URGH CHOICES.