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Intergalactic Summit

 
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So I had to kill some guys, and now I feel weird about it.

Author
Kim Ji-Young
Ji Young Kim Bap
#21 - 2013-05-28 14:06:59 UTC
Toluijin Chagangan wrote:
It's a big dark old cluster out there kid.

Staying away from everyone who wants to do things to or with you is not a luxury you can generally maintain unless you choose to remain in your quarters.

Consider this though. You have been forced into conflict with another, and while that conflict may have been against your wishes, you emerged victorious, and possibly stronger because of it.
Beyond all that though, you still question whether it was something you could have avoided.

Where most capsuleers would have simply notched up another baseliner crew as 'dead enemies' you have chosen introspection and analysis.

Perhaps you read too heavily into the effects of your actions, so perhaps you should consider that it was their choice to attack your ship, knowing that you were a capsuleer and that you therefore outclassed their vessels. At that point, they have made their choice, and they compounded this choice by attempting to disable your warp systems.

Do i agree with the actions you took? well.. taken out of their context, you did the right thing, defending your vessel and crew against a badly thought out assault.

Taken in context, it concerns slavery, so I will not comment further.
.


Yeah I get all that stuff. I can rationalise it easily enough to myself. It just doesn't make me feel any better. Logic and emotion don't really coincide with me very much. Gotta be honest, heh.

Sofia Roseburn wrote:
There's a saying in Amarrian: praemonitus praemunitus. It translates as forewarned is forearmed, and whilst it's usage is steeped in military operations it's application in day to day life is really rather appropriate.

The saying is something for you to consider I think. The more you know about any given situation, be it commercial or military, the better you can react if the situation goes awry. If you can't handle the emotions that come with killing someone, egger or not, then you need to accept the fact that you cannot undo what you did and control the situation in the future or softclone the memories out of your head. Note: the latter does require some degree of prior planning.

Whilst I can't help you with your emotional fallout regarding the situation, I would recommend steeling yourself for the future. It is very hard to survive in the void without shooting someone at some point in time. The better prepared you are to deal with it the better.


Any tips on how to "steel oneself", that'd be nice. Because that's the crux of the matter. I know I should probably do that but I have no idea how to go about it. I don't think repeated exposure will work - if I imagine another conflict situation like the one I was in, I think I'll probably handle it worse, not better. Thinking it rationally doesn't work either. But I'm not sure what other options there are. Maybe I need some kind of therapy. Who's a therapist, email me.
Kim Ji-Young
Ji Young Kim Bap
#22 - 2013-05-28 14:08:48 UTC
Liberty Roach wrote:
Kim Ji-Young wrote:
Any tips that you more experienced pilots have for dealing with the psychological fallout of turning into a mass murderer overnight, I'd really appreciate that, because I figure it's territory familiar to most of you and surely you coped somehow. You can't ALL be morally vacuous and repugnant sociopaths, I'm sure some of you needed a coping mechanism. So anyway, please share, thank you.

You's got the right to defend yourself, just keep remembering that. It's okay to feel shook-up after, too. They tried to stripe up your ship, isn't it?

So here's what I think you should do. You should go find a good friend, or maybe just someone you fancy a little bit, have a bit of wine together, maybe watch a holo or a kendu game or something like that. Get some hugs, maybe a shag. Just to get back to ground a bit, see?


Kim Ji-Young wrote:
When you think about it, we're all one wrong drunken turn in a cargo bay away from waking up planetside in JIta on a park bench wearing nothing but an overcoat stuffed with ISK and not remembering how we got there.

You and I, we needs to start drinking together. You sound way more fun to hang out with than any of my regular mates.


You know, I like the way you think.
Sofia Roseburn
Verdant Inquiries
#23 - 2013-05-28 14:41:04 UTC
Kim Ji-Young wrote:
Any tips on how to "steel oneself", that'd be nice. Because that's the crux of the matter. I know I should probably do that but I have no idea how to go about it. I don't think repeated exposure will work - if I imagine another conflict situation like the one I was in, I think I'll probably handle it worse, not better. Thinking it rationally doesn't work either. But I'm not sure what other options there are. Maybe I need some kind of therapy. Who's a therapist, email me.


It's been a long time since I even had to consider how to do it, so I can't guarantee that anything I will suggest is applicable or will actually work.

The main thing to consider is that there is always someone willing to do what you aren't. That's nothing new, it's been a fact of life for as long as I can remember, and has been noted in multiple categories of literature, fiction and non. As such, there's always going to be someone who will want to punch holes in your ship's hull. The quicker that is accepted and taken on board, the quicker you adapt to the environment you work in. That's really the main thing you need to understand; no matter your personal standards you can't apply them to anyone else or hold everyone to them. Space is, undoubtedly, a violent place.

Remember, they shot first, not you. You may have killed some people today, but they brought it upon themselves. Not everyone can be helped. If that's something that is hard to swallow then there's always the tried and tested capsuleer fallback, alcohol. Ms. Roach has offered to be your drinking partner, and I'd be more than happy to oblige as well.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#24 - 2013-05-28 15:30:39 UTC
View it as ships you destroyed instead of people, and avoid giving it too much thought.
Shiori Shaishi
Doomheim
#25 - 2013-05-28 16:16:16 UTC
There is nothing to put between you and the naked void that won't feel superfluous or embarrasingly naïve, in the long run. I'm sorry.
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#26 - 2013-05-28 16:41:03 UTC
Contrary to what Ston says, to build, sometimes you must first destroy.

Diplomacy and words should be used as default, and violence only a last resort if all else fails, of course, but sometimes one is simply not given the option.

As a pilot, you always have the choice of not opening fire on another vessel. You have other tools at your disposal - certainly you can try encouraging them to leave through other means, but if they open fire on you you should feel no shame in defending yourself as necessary.

I would kill, and have done so, to protect my friends, my family, and my home from harm when no other course of action availed itself. Most people would, if they had the means and ability to do so.

The key is causing as little harm as possible. The longer you spend as a pilot, the better able you will be at determining how to go about accomplishing your goals and objectives while holding to this. Sometimes you will be able to do it without firing a single shot. Sometimes it will only be a single crew whose lives are consigned to the void. And sometimes, it will be far more than that.

What matters is that you at least try. Starship crews know well the risks that come with their profession. It is something they accept as a fact of life - but the destruction or the ships they serve on need not be an absolute end. Take salvaging crews with search and rescue training with you. Make an effort to take the time to check every wreck for survivors. More people survive the destruction of their vessel than most people realize - it is very frequently the failure of S&R teams to reach survivors in a timely fashion that is the cause of death for starship crews.

Your interactions - good or ill - with these people need not end with the salvo that destroys their vessel. You cannot fully make up for the destruction you cause, but you can make a difference for those who survive.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque

Istvaan Shogaatsu
Guiding Hand Social Club
#27 - 2013-05-28 17:02:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
You are in the first few steps of a rising curve. The first few are the only ones that bother you.

The first few I killed bothered me, too. Not sure if I was even a capsuleer back then. The next dozen odd, less so. As they become more of a statistic, and less individual beings with futures and hopes which you've snuffed out, stomaching yourself ending them becomes trivial. The next hundred might as well not have been there. I stopped counting after a few thousand. Had I kept count, the guilt would have driven me mad, so I simply decided to stop feeling guilty. Then there was that thing with Daasa and the nerve gas, which bumped me up to fifty-six million... aaah, they really should put me down. I'm a bad influence on this species.
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#28 - 2013-05-28 17:26:48 UTC
Killing people has never bothered me, nor do I understand the stated intense need to 'depersonalize' others before killing them.

That said, fights still make me shiver like a leaf in a strong wind.

I think that's a normal physical reaction brought on by too many chemicals in your blood stream. Or the wrong kind, if some people are to be believed.

Treat that as you would having taken one too many drinks of alcohol.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Repentence Tyrathlion
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#29 - 2013-05-28 17:37:42 UTC
I remember when I was starting out.

I was not what you might call a natural capsuleer. I flunked all the combat training exercises repeatedly, and even after I graduated, I never locked anything more sentient than an asteroid. Most of my time was spent hauling cargo around or messing with blueprints.

Honestly, I was worse than you. By the sound of it, you're not getting jittery at the mere idea of locking something up, let alone firing at it. I suspect some of my corpmates found it rather cute. Not a trait one expects in a capsuleer, much less one working for a Cartel-funded operation.

That was a while ago, now. I lost a good deal of innocence on my path, I'll freely admit that. I am not a nice person any more, I'm just good at projecting a front.

The universe gave me a rather brutal crash course in the importance of fighting for what you hold dear, but what really helped was the advice and support of those who cared. Is it inevitable that you (both as a specific 'you' and a general term for all capsuleers) will become a cold mass murderer? No. Many do. Some have so dehumanised themselves by the time that they complete training that they don't even leave the pod any more.

My advice is twofold. First, which you've already done, is seek out advice - and more importantly, find someone with some experience who can provide some guidance and wisdom that you can trust. Both of the individuals who mentored me the most in this regard were Caldari - whether that's just coincidence, or a certain innate pragmatism that helped in my case, is anyone's guess - but the important thing is that they're people you respect and trust.

The other aspect is to accept that you've changed. Contrary to what some would have you believe, we're not human any more. We're more than that. No human ever had the power to alter the fate of thousands not at the push of a button, not with a decision, but with a passing whim. We have become demigods.

Does that make us better? More worthy? Does it make everyone else without value? No. Does it make it wrong to mourn? Certainly not. But it does mean you are faced with the choice of denying what you are, and ultimately being nothing (naming no names here...), or with taking the power that you have been granted, and working out what that means for you in terms of responsibility.

Dehumanising your enemy is very easy when they consist of a datastream and a pretty shape. Be careful that it doesn't lead to dehumanising everyone else as well.
Denak Calamari
Incorruptibles
#30 - 2013-05-28 18:31:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Denak Calamari
Welcome to my life where killing and mass murder is my job and gives food to my table.

How I deal with it? What I do is usually remember one line from the Mordu's Legion Code of Honor, it goes something like this(I'm paraphrasing so don't shoot me please, not that it really helps):

You treat everyone with respect and as equal human beings. Every individual has rights and they have to be respected accoding to law. But when that individual becomes an enemy or has a bounty on his head, he ceases to be an individual with rights. We do not think of the people we kill as individuals, but as acquisitions and property, the loss of property is hardly a thing worth feeling guilt or doubts about. As cold as it may sound, I follow this line closely, and I have a clear conscience because of it. If I get called a cold heartless bastard for it, too bad.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2013-05-28 18:46:05 UTC
To me, "ISK/hr" is really "thousands of lives/hr".

Whenever I need a boost of ISK, I try to limit the carnage to just those that deserve it. Criminals, murderers, genocidal freaks, you name it. I try to purge villainy from this cluster. But does that make me any better than the scores I cut down?

I dare not try to find an answer to that question

You'd think that a News Talk show would be enough to pay the bills, but broadcasting clusterwide is quite expensive. It is only profitable by about .10%. Clearly, I've only been doing it because I like to do it. I like to host my little program because it tends to keep me, and others happy or at least occupied.

I suppose the productivity and smiles stop me from noticing the tears.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Brandi Wiseman
Den Sorte Loge
#32 - 2013-05-28 18:53:51 UTC
Bai'xao Meiyi wrote:
The most important steps, is depersonalizing your enemy. Think of them as other, less then, inhuman. Afew of my Sani Sabik brothers and sisters often focus on the idea of their enemy being clearly weaker then they, meaning they had every right to take the life according to many sect within the religion. I assume, however that you're a red blooded imperial woman.


I think that's the worst thing to do. I think you must always remember that the person in the cockpit is another human being. They are not mindless drones (unless of course they are in fact mindless drones!).

I think that as long as you are feeling guilty over your actions you should feel comforted. It's when you no longer feel guilt over your actions that the trouble really begins.

Take comfort from your guilt and never forget the human cost. It is too easy as a capsuleer to forget that cost, even while we ourselves are normally surrounded by a human crew.

Fly Caldari!

Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
#33 - 2013-05-28 21:42:43 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
View it as ships you destroyed instead of people, and avoid giving it too much thought.
I would advise against this. There are clues that this perception is a symptom of the theoretical capsuleer dementia.
On the other hand, if you do get capsuleer dementia, you will not care that you kill.

I have killed in the past. I could rationalize it, although in hindsight, some of my rationalizations were not very valid.
At one point in time, I caught myself considering to destroy a ship that was no threat to me at all. In response to that, I re-evaluated my rationalizations.

I guess this is not of much use to you, but I guess I echo Momaki's statements: I don't think you should learn to cope with it completely. That's a slippery slope.

Anyway, my movement was created to offer a home for pilots like you. So if you ever feel alone, my door is open.
Kim Ji-Young
Ji Young Kim Bap
#34 - 2013-05-29 00:33:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Kim Ji-Young
Okay I think I have an action plan:

1. Meet Sofia and Liberty, go out somewhere and get smashed
2. Get therapy at some point
3. I'm not sure what the third step is but only two steps in an action plan seems a bit poor

Thanks everyone for your help.
Sofia Roseburn
Verdant Inquiries
#35 - 2013-05-29 00:37:44 UTC
Step three is rinse and repeat.
Liberty Roach
October Country
#36 - 2013-05-29 02:50:21 UTC
Ace.
Stitcher
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#37 - 2013-05-29 15:43:07 UTC
If I were you, I'd be more ashamed of what you did to that slave. Dead is dead, the people you destroyed are beyond fear and pain and suffering. The slave, though? You delivered a living human being back into the hands of servitude and a master who probably had a punishment in store for runaways.

If you can live with that, but not with killing, then your priorities are awry. Both acts should weight on your soul, but harm to the living strikes me as the worse crime.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Heinel Coventina
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2013-05-29 17:15:46 UTC
Kim Ji-Young wrote:
Although I know that I'm not really to blame, I still feel bad anyway.


Do you feel bad when you walk by and see someone bang their heads against a wall until they killed themselves?
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#39 - 2013-05-29 22:33:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Stitcher wrote:
If I were you, I'd be more ashamed of what you did to that slave. Dead is dead, the people you destroyed are beyond fear and pain and suffering. The slave, though? You delivered a living human being back into the hands of servitude and a master who probably had a punishment in store for runaways.

If you can live with that, but not with killing, then your priorities are awry. Both acts should weight on your soul, but harm to the living strikes me as the worse crime.


The slave ran away and deserves appropriate punishment. That punishment will be a harm, but not all harms are wrong simply because they are harmful.

And killing is the worst thing you can do to a person. Especially when it is dozens or hundreds of people as in this example. Your priorities are the ones that are off.
Stitcher
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#40 - 2013-05-29 22:53:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Correct me if I'm wrong, but as (presumably, seeing as you're in PIE) a follower of the Amarr faith, don't you believe in an afterlife? To me, that belief seems incompatible with the idea that killing somebody is the worst thing you can do to them.

Hell, I don't think that's the case and I don't believe in any kind of afterlife at all. Dead is dead, the worst has happened, it's going to happen to all of us someday. Indenture, lashes, punitive cybernetics, Vitoxin, confinement and shock collars? Suffering is an infinitely worse experience than oblivion, and lacks that equality that death has in coming to all of us in time - some people suffer, others don't.

As far as I'm concerned, to inflict pain and suffering on another human being is a worse crime than to kill them.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders