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A suggestion for the Heth Loyalists out there...

Author
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#21 - 2013-05-27 17:37:13 UTC
Edwin Sterrick wrote:
...there are still Heth loyalists?

Yes, there are: the entirety of the CPD, and all loyal Citizens until such time as he is removed from office.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn

Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-05-27 17:38:37 UTC
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
Kim-haani has been a loyal and zealous servant of the State. She has broken no laws. She has defended Caldari space. She has supported a man who was the duly appointed Executive of the CPD.

Is she popular? Nope. Last time I checked, being a good Caldari citizen wasn't a matter of being likable or beloved.

I fully endorse this statement.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn

Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#23 - 2013-05-27 17:42:49 UTC
Evi Polevhia wrote:
Zsaryna Adrelana wrote:
Diana Kim made a wrong decision, should she really be crucified for that?


We all are accountable for our decisions.

Following the lead of and offering support for the legitimate authority of State Executor Tibus Heth was not a wrong decision, neither for Diana Kim nor for Visera Yanala. Until such time as he is removed from office, it is the only correct decision for one who is loyal to the State above other interests. In time we will see if Diana Kim only followed Heth because of her own motivations or because of a sense of duty: if the former, then she was useful while breaking no laws; if the latter, then she has acted in an exemplary manner. I would hope that she will conform her behavior to fit her duty, should that change.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn

Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-05-27 17:47:04 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
I quite agree with Zsaryna Adrelana. These insults are little more than schoolyard bullying of the unpopular kid. We should be above that.

Political rhetoric is often terrible, which is why I generally stay out of threads like this. And by terrible, I don't just mean that bad words and negative sentiments are expressed: I mean that the logic used for them is lacking and falls apart under inquiry. There are people who honestly believe that their political opponents are traitors to the same cause they both nominally espouse, for no reason other than for disagreement on a single issue. In this case we have testimony alleging a specific wrongdoing on the part of a man who is still the legitimately appointed Executor for the Caldari State. Mere allegations do not relieve him of that duty, nor should they. And nor should those allegations by proxy incriminate someone who has been nothing but loyal.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn

Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-05-27 18:02:08 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Zsaryna Adrelana wrote:
Diana Kim's commitment to your State is undeniable and unquestionable.

No it isn't. She's loyal only to Heth. Anyone who opposes Heth, in her opinion, isn't loyal to the State. But as it's become increasingly clear that Heth isn't, in fact, loyal to the State, where does that leave him - and more important to this particular conversation, where does it leave her?

I think perhaps you misunderstand Kim-haani's position on the matter. She is loyal to the office of the Executor as any State loyalist would be, and I agree entirely with her. That office is presently occupied by Tibus Heth, and has legitimate authority. Accusations of wrongdoing do not relieve him of that authority or of his duties in the capacity of CEO of KK or Executor of the State. Perhaps one does not agree with Heth's policies, and that is fine; perhaps one does not like Heth's choice in attire, and that is fine; perhaps one thinks Heth a fool, and that is fine; but, he remains the Executor of the State, and both our military forces and our loyalist capsuleers are bound by duty to that office. He, the man, may do wrong; but, his office is more than the man who fills it. My understanding of Kim-haani's position is that Heth deserves our support because of his office, and in the event that he is removed from it the next occupant would deserve it as well. I support the Caldari State and our Executor; I support the Chief Executive Panel; and, I support Sukuuvestaa. There is nothing wrong with any of these assertions, and to be quite frank anyone who does not support the State, the CEP, and their Corporate Citizenship is a very odd Caldari.


Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Zsaryna Adrelana wrote:
Diana Kim made a wrong decision, should she really be crucified for that?
Oh, absolutely. She's had ample evidence presented to her that supporting Heth and demanding the murder of every Gallentean, every Intaki, every Mannar, every Jin-Mei in the cosmos was wrong. She rejected reality and chose to pursue a genocidal delusion. You want me to tell you the truth? She's going to get crucified whether or not you think it's right - and yes, before you ask, of course I'm going to enjoy it. But regardless of my subjective investiture she richly deserves it.

Dehumanizing the enemy is an ancient and highly successful training implement that makes combatants more willing to kill other humans than they otherwise would be. Whether you think this is wrong or right, it is and has been done in every military force across the cluster. Humans are loathe to kill other humans unless they are trained to do so; but, we don't want our soldiers to be completely comfortable with killing humans, so we train them to think of the enemy not as another human but as some pejorative or other-thing. Perhaps in an ideal world we would not need to do this, because there would be no such thing as armed conflict; but, in the world we live in we need men and women with guns who do not hesitate when the order is given, and for most people the only way to arrive at that conditioning is through dehumanization training. Hopefully she will come out of it in time, but in the meanwhile I will not condemn Kim-haani for being loyal to the State and fulfilling her duty.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn

Sakura Nihil
Faded Light
#26 - 2013-05-27 22:57:09 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Following the lead of and offering support for the legitimate authority of State Executor Tibus Heth was not a wrong decision, neither for Diana Kim nor for Visera Yanala. Until such time as he is removed from office, it is the only correct decision for one who is loyal to the State above other interests. In time we will see if Diana Kim only followed Heth because of her own motivations or because of a sense of duty: if the former, then she was useful while breaking no laws; if the latter, then she has acted in an exemplary manner. I would hope that she will conform her behavior to fit her duty, should that change.

I'd argue that every Caldari's first duty is to the future of their own people, not to serve the twisted ambitions of some deluded dictator. This duty to our future should override the sense of fleeting loyalty to Heth most Caldari should have.

If you feel the need to serve him, though, go for it. I'm sure Yanala would appreciate the company.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#27 - 2013-05-28 03:09:04 UTC
There will be no hole deep enough for these provists to hide in.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-05-28 07:56:42 UTC
Sakura Nihil wrote:
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Following the lead of and offering support for the legitimate authority of State Executor Tibus Heth was not a wrong decision, neither for Diana Kim nor for Visera Yanala. Until such time as he is removed from office, it is the only correct decision for one who is loyal to the State above other interests. In time we will see if Diana Kim only followed Heth because of her own motivations or because of a sense of duty: if the former, then she was useful while breaking no laws; if the latter, then she has acted in an exemplary manner. I would hope that she will conform her behavior to fit her duty, should that change.

I'd argue that every Caldari's first duty is to the future of their own people, not to serve the twisted ambitions of some deluded dictator. This duty to our future should override the sense of fleeting loyalty to Heth most Caldari should have.

If you feel the need to serve him, though, go for it. I'm sure Yanala would appreciate the company.

Visera Yanala was a hero. She was the exemplar of a loyal Caldari soldier: she fulfilled her duty and obeyed orders, including some which were possibly questionable; moreover, recent telemetry and testimony suggests that she fulfilled her duty by disobeying orders when it was clearly in the best interest of the State for her to do so. I admire her personally for her dedication to her duty and, assuming the telemetry and testimony are true, for her willingness to serve the State rather than Heth or even herself. She did her duty even when it was difficult, even when it led her to oppose Heth, and even unto her death.

As to Tibus Heth, he remains the Executor of the State which is a position commanding authority and respect. I suggest no more than that we afford him what he is entitled by his office, regardless of our personal feelings. Tibus Heth is but a man, and perhaps he has faults; but, he is also the Executor of the State, and the Executor deserves our support. If he has committed wrongs as has been alleged, then the Chief Executive Panel will determine that and will make a decision regarding his future; and, perhaps he will be removed from office. Until that time, he remains the Executor and I will support him because he is the Executor, not because he is Tibus Heth. I would offer just as much support if it were you in his position, and I would expect others to do the same.

In short, I believe in due process. Does my position make more sense to you now?

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#29 - 2013-05-28 09:34:35 UTC
Due process does not require automatic respect for whoever happens to be in charge if, in our sincere opinion, they do not merit it.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Bai'xao Meiyi
#30 - 2013-05-28 13:11:35 UTC
I am actually quite fond of Diana Kim, she makes a wonderful example when I talk of Servants and Savants with friends who know of her. Her fervor is also endearing to me.
Svetlana Scarlet
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#31 - 2013-05-28 15:20:08 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Evi Polevhia wrote:
Zsaryna Adrelana wrote:
Diana Kim made a wrong decision, should she really be crucified for that?


We all are accountable for our decisions.

Following the lead of and offering support for the legitimate authority of State Executor Tibus Heth was not a wrong decision, neither for Diana Kim nor for Visera Yanala. Until such time as he is removed from office, it is the only correct decision for one who is loyal to the State above other interests. In time we will see if Diana Kim only followed Heth because of her own motivations or because of a sense of duty: if the former, then she was useful while breaking no laws; if the latter, then she has acted in an exemplary manner. I would hope that she will conform her behavior to fit her duty, should that change.

Tibus Heth has never "legitimately" been anything but the CEO of Kaalakiota, and even that seems...suspect. The office of the Executor is illegal and unprecedented, and should never have been allowed to fester. It was only the cowardice of the CEP that allowed it to exist, and perhaps when they finally find their backbone, after so many repeated insults to Caldari law and tradition, it will be burned to the ground so that we can be rid of it, once and for all.
Brandi Wiseman
Den Sorte Loge
#32 - 2013-05-28 18:46:42 UTC
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
Kim-haani has been a loyal and zealous servant of the State. She has broken no laws. She has defended Caldari space. She has supported a man who was the duly appointed Executive of the CPD.

Is she popular? Nope. Last time I checked, being a good Caldari citizen wasn't a matter of being likable or beloved.


It's that same historical defence: "I was only following orders..."

When those orders are irrational to all sane individuals then you must think for yourself and make a difficult decision. Blindly following orders is no excuse and never has been.

Fly Caldari!

Sakura Nihil
Faded Light
#33 - 2013-05-28 21:44:03 UTC
I'll agree with you on one thing. Yanala's an exemplar of the modern, loyal Caldari soldier, someone who followed her duty regardless of where it led... even if it was the loss of Caldari Prime, a large number of Caldari forces, and ultimately her life. She seemed to trust in "her superiors", and by the time she thought and acted for herself, it was too late.

Like I said, there's plenty of space beside her if that's the path you want to take. If you truly wish to serve the Caldari people, to do your duty to the future of our people, and resist this genocidal bastard before it's too late.
Brandi Wiseman
Den Sorte Loge
#34 - 2013-05-28 22:11:02 UTC
Sakura Nihil wrote:
I'll agree with you on one thing. Yanala's an exemplar of the modern, loyal Caldari soldier, someone who followed her duty regardless of where it led... even if it was the loss of Caldari Prime, a large number of Caldari forces, and ultimately her life. She seemed to trust in "her superiors", and by the time she thought and acted for herself, it was too late.

Like I said, there's plenty of space beside her if that's the path you want to take. If you truly wish to serve the Caldari people, to do your duty to the future of our people, and resist this genocidal bastard before it's too late.


In fact I was thinking precisely the opposite. Admiral Yanala is a prime example of an officer who ultimately questioned her orders, found them wanting and refused to execute them. She specifically did not "follow her duty regardless of where it led..."

Fly Caldari!

Sakura Nihil
Faded Light
#35 - 2013-05-29 09:15:12 UTC
That was directed at Lyris, not you. Lack of clarity on my part.
Darvaleth Sigma
Imperial Security Hegemony
#36 - 2013-05-31 16:52:19 UTC
Sakura Nihil wrote:
Maybe I'll show a shred of sympathy for her... once she stops trying to push the extermination of the entire Gallente race.


I'm glad for her. Much better to not suffer the grievous insult of Gallente pity and to strive for a noble cause than scrounge for sympathy, as you would have her do. I care not for the bickering over Heth, I am loyal to the State whatever shape it takes.

Give a man a match and you warm him for a day.

Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life!

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