These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

The Battle of Colelie
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#141 - 2013-05-26 09:31:43 UTC
Aurora Fatalis wrote:
Pardon me for being uneducated in history (Mine was a science major), but I see a lot of vague talk of how the Federation has bullied the Minmatar republic, with few specifics being referenced, and those few hardly being of the let's murder thousands of Gallentean citizens caliber. How, I wonder, has the Federation treated you terribly enough that your forget the bonds we made during the original rebellion?


Echo chambers and viral ideological propagation.
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#142 - 2013-05-26 09:50:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher7
Zsaryna Adrelana wrote:
Once again your knowledge of military doctrine has shown itself to be extremely lacking.
When I was in the Navy, I worked with elements from MIO and various other imperial organisations and what you have just described is pretty much the accepted doctrine when regular forces work alongside SF units. We would hold a gate, we would cover a system or keep a perimeter whilst they went in to do whatever they needed to do, we were never told what the mission was because we never needed to know. This is established military good practice. The Caldari do it, the Gallente do it and we do it.

Covering their retreat is part of the job, since their lives and ships are more expensive than ours, in the same way as my life was worth more than that of a line grunt purely because I cost more to replace and take more time to retrain.

Your government has a lot of political finesse? In comparison to what, a fedo?

Openings expressed herein are not representative of policy decisions by The Royal Navy and its affiliates and shareholders.


We not talking about opsec, we talking basic combined-fleet collaboration.

Only thing "special" about the Gallente I've worked with is their attitude. "Gallente special forces" we had another name for those guys, we call them "Minmatar contractors." Ok seriously now, I'm sure they're out there, I never met em.

Fedo haha cute.

Yeah your govt is very subtle "we gonna reclaim the whole galaxy" maybe the tribal council should try that angle "hey guys we gonna kill and enslave you all" see how that works out for political discourse.
Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#143 - 2013-05-26 21:57:16 UTC
Aurora Fatalis wrote:
Pardon me for being uneducated in history (Mine was a science major), but I see a lot of vague talk of how the Federation has bullied the Minmatar republic, with few specifics being referenced, and those few hardly being of the let's murder thousands of Gallentean citizens caliber. How, I wonder, has the Federation treated you terribly enough that your forget the bonds we made during the original rebellion?



First off, most Matari I know, including me, do not consider our grievances with the Federation to be justification for what happened in Colelie.

I would also only describe some of it as outright bullying, which would include the attitude the Federation seems to have that we owe them complete obedience and deference because of the help they've given us in the past, as well as the arrogant manner in which the Federation repeatedly reminds us of all the help they've given us in the past, expecting us to be good little lapdogs they can show off as an example of how their ideals of "democracy" and "complete freedom" can "civilize" primitive tribals.

They've frequently shown blatant disregard for our culture and philosophies, expecting us to simply toss all that aside and adopt their own culture and philosophies purely out of gratitude for the help they gave us. They spent a long time trying to convince us to do away with our most important traditions, such as the voluval, as part of their attempts to "civilize" us, and continue to treat us like children because we won't just toss aside our tribal culture.

Contrary to popular belief, we actually are very grateful to the Federation for their help in so many of our people regaining their freedom. But their help and well-deserved gratitude doesn't give them any right to the condescending, arrogant behavior they've been directing at us ever since., and we are, quite frankly, getting tired of it.

And, because I know someone will ignore what I said at the start of this post (and probably what I say here, too), I'll reiterate. These grievances we have with the Federation are legitimate and significant, but no, they don't justify what happened at Colelie. Nothing that I am aware of justifies what happened at Colelie. And I'm not sure I want Colelie to be justified as that may well prove the Federation to be something much worse than simply arrogant pricks who think their way is the only civilized way.
BloodBird
The Crucible.
#144 - 2013-05-26 22:46:38 UTC
Katarina Musana wrote:
Aurora Fatalis wrote:
Pardon me for being uneducated in history (Mine was a science major), but I see a lot of vague talk of how the Federation has bullied the Minmatar republic, with few specifics being referenced, and those few hardly being of the let's murder thousands of Gallentean citizens caliber. How, I wonder, has the Federation treated you terribly enough that your forget the bonds we made during the original rebellion?



First off, most Matari I know, including me, do not consider our grievances with the Federation to be justification for what happened in Colelie.

I would also only describe some of it as outright bullying, which would include the attitude the Federation seems to have that we owe them complete obedience and deference because of the help they've given us in the past, as well as the arrogant manner in which the Federation repeatedly reminds us of all the help they've given us in the past, expecting us to be good little lapdogs they can show off as an example of how their ideals of "democracy" and "complete freedom" can "civilize" primitive tribals.

They've frequently shown blatant disregard for our culture and philosophies, expecting us to simply toss all that aside and adopt their own culture and philosophies purely out of gratitude for the help they gave us. They spent a long time trying to convince us to do away with our most important traditions, such as the voluval, as part of their attempts to "civilize" us, and continue to treat us like children because we won't just toss aside our tribal culture.

Contrary to popular belief, we actually are very grateful to the Federation for their help in so many of our people regaining their freedom. But their help and well-deserved gratitude doesn't give them any right to the condescending, arrogant behavior they've been directing at us ever since., and we are, quite frankly, getting tired of it.

And, because I know someone will ignore what I said at the start of this post (and probably what I say here, too), I'll reiterate. These grievances we have with the Federation are legitimate and significant, but no, they don't justify what happened at Colelie. Nothing that I am aware of justifies what happened at Colelie. And I'm not sure I want Colelie to be justified as that may well prove the Federation to be something much worse than simply arrogant pricks who think their way is the only civilized way.


I am assuming here you have concrete examples of this torrent of accusations. I would further appreciate it if you would share them.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#145 - 2013-05-27 00:09:18 UTC
Katarina Musana wrote:
They've frequently shown blatant disregard for our culture and philosophies



The irony in this line alone is the major objection I've had with the Republic throughout this incident, before they were breaking CONCORD law.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#146 - 2013-05-27 02:19:52 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Katarina Musana wrote:
They've frequently shown blatant disregard for our culture and philosophies



The irony in this line alone is the major objection I've had with the Republic throughout this incident, before they were breaking CONCORD law.



So, tell me, why should we respect Federation "culture" (if you can even call it that) and philosophy when the Federation has refused to respect ours all along?
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#147 - 2013-05-27 02:31:42 UTC
Katarina Musana wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Katarina Musana wrote:
They've frequently shown blatant disregard for our culture and philosophies



The irony in this line alone is the major objection I've had with the Republic throughout this incident, before they were breaking CONCORD law.



So, tell me, why should we respect Federation "culture" (if you can even call it that) and philosophy when the Federation has refused to respect ours all along?


Why should they respect yours when you don't even acknowledge theirs?


It's blind pettiness and ignorance from both sides.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Edwin Sterrick
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#148 - 2013-05-27 03:36:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Edwin Sterrick
Katarina Musana wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Katarina Musana wrote:
They've frequently shown blatant disregard for our culture and philosophies



The irony in this line alone is the major objection I've had with the Republic throughout this incident, before they were breaking CONCORD law.



So, tell me, why should we respect Federation "culture" (if you can even call it that) and philosophy when the Federation has refused to respect ours all along?


Of course! After all, this all started when the Federation demanded that the Minmatar extradite a Matari suspect, over a crime committed in Matari space, whose victims were overwhelmingly Republic citizens.

...no, wait, silly me! That's what actually disrespecting someone's culture looks like.
Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#149 - 2013-05-27 08:12:07 UTC
Edwin Sterrick wrote:
Katarina Musana wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Katarina Musana wrote:
They've frequently shown blatant disregard for our culture and philosophies



The irony in this line alone is the major objection I've had with the Republic throughout this incident, before they were breaking CONCORD law.



So, tell me, why should we respect Federation "culture" (if you can even call it that) and philosophy when the Federation has refused to respect ours all along?


Of course! After all, this all started when the Federation demanded that the Minmatar extradite a Matari suspect, over a crime committed in Matari space, whose victims were overwhelmingly Republic citizens.

...no, wait, silly me! That's what actually disrespecting someone's culture looks like.



First off, the majority, if not all, of the victims were Matari, regardless of citizenship. Second, a Matari Tribal Chief was one of the victims. Third, the crime has been made clear to have been anti-Matari in purpose.

Insisting on extradition was in no way disrespectful of Federation culture. It had nothing to do with Federation culture, only Federal Law.

And it was a situation where both sides should've been willing to compromise, though once the Ray died, releasing the shooter over to the Republic should've been a foregone conclusion. He killed a Tribal Chief. I would hope that if your President were killed on Republic soil by a Republic citizen, the Federation would insist on extradition, or does the Federation really have so little respect for its leaders?
Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#150 - 2013-05-27 08:14:31 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Katarina Musana wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Katarina Musana wrote:
They've frequently shown blatant disregard for our culture and philosophies



The irony in this line alone is the major objection I've had with the Republic throughout this incident, before they were breaking CONCORD law.



So, tell me, why should we respect Federation "culture" (if you can even call it that) and philosophy when the Federation has refused to respect ours all along?


Why should they respect yours when you don't even acknowledge theirs?


It's blind pettiness and ignorance from both sides.


We have never refused to acknowledge Federation culture. They have actively tried to get us to abandon our culture altogether ever since we became free and were finally able to live according to our culture and traditions again.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#151 - 2013-05-27 11:38:55 UTC
Katarina Musana wrote:


We have never refused to acknowledge Federation culture.


Katarina Musana wrote:


Federation "culture" (if you can even call it that)


Uhuh. Helps to remember what you wrote the day before.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
BloodBird
The Crucible.
#152 - 2013-05-27 12:25:29 UTC
BloodBird wrote:
Katarina Musana wrote:
Aurora Fatalis wrote:
Pardon me for being uneducated in history (Mine was a science major), but I see a lot of vague talk of how the Federation has bullied the Minmatar republic, with few specifics being referenced, and those few hardly being of the let's murder thousands of Gallentean citizens caliber. How, I wonder, has the Federation treated you terribly enough that your forget the bonds we made during the original rebellion?



First off, most Matari I know, including me, do not consider our grievances with the Federation to be justification for what happened in Colelie.

I would also only describe some of it as outright bullying, which would include the attitude the Federation seems to have that we owe them complete obedience and deference because of the help they've given us in the past, as well as the arrogant manner in which the Federation repeatedly reminds us of all the help they've given us in the past, expecting us to be good little lapdogs they can show off as an example of how their ideals of "democracy" and "complete freedom" can "civilize" primitive tribals.

They've frequently shown blatant disregard for our culture and philosophies, expecting us to simply toss all that aside and adopt their own culture and philosophies purely out of gratitude for the help they gave us. They spent a long time trying to convince us to do away with our most important traditions, such as the voluval, as part of their attempts to "civilize" us, and continue to treat us like children because we won't just toss aside our tribal culture.

Contrary to popular belief, we actually are very grateful to the Federation for their help in so many of our people regaining their freedom. But their help and well-deserved gratitude doesn't give them any right to the condescending, arrogant behavior they've been directing at us ever since., and we are, quite frankly, getting tired of it.

And, because I know someone will ignore what I said at the start of this post (and probably what I say here, too), I'll reiterate. These grievances we have with the Federation are legitimate and significant, but no, they don't justify what happened at Colelie. Nothing that I am aware of justifies what happened at Colelie. And I'm not sure I want Colelie to be justified as that may well prove the Federation to be something much worse than simply arrogant pricks who think their way is the only civilized way.


I am assuming here you have concrete examples of this torrent of accusations. I would further appreciate it if you would share them.



I notice that you are yet to even attempt to do this, or acknowledge that I even asked you to do so.

I'll give you a bit more time. Say, a day or so, before I just draw my own conclusions about your claims.
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#153 - 2013-05-27 14:05:58 UTC

A long pattern of cultural imperialism is hard to break down into "incidents."

Aliastra stores shuttin down local merchants
Egonics screwin wit traditional songs
Quafe factories dumpin crap in the water

Our politicians say "the community needs jobs," I say "When did Matari ever have to 'clock in' and why should we start now?"

Your kind say we are backwards.

I say backwards is when you tink you know everything.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#154 - 2013-05-27 14:18:53 UTC
You make a lot of accusations with little fact to support them you know.

Still want reference that the Federal Navy was using the Matari as a meatshield to cover their own tails, because I've not found reference to anything like that in previous joint operations.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Edwin Sterrick
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#155 - 2013-05-27 15:14:24 UTC
Katarina Musana wrote:
Edwin Sterrick wrote:
Katarina Musana wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Katarina Musana wrote:
They've frequently shown blatant disregard for our culture and philosophies



The irony in this line alone is the major objection I've had with the Republic throughout this incident, before they were breaking CONCORD law.



So, tell me, why should we respect Federation "culture" (if you can even call it that) and philosophy when the Federation has refused to respect ours all along?


Of course! After all, this all started when the Federation demanded that the Minmatar extradite a Matari suspect, over a crime committed in Matari space, whose victims were overwhelmingly Republic citizens.

...no, wait, silly me! That's what actually disrespecting someone's culture looks like.



First off, the majority, if not all, of the victims were Matari, regardless of citizenship. Second, a Matari Tribal Chief was one of the victims. Third, the crime has been made clear to have been anti-Matari in purpose.

Insisting on extradition was in no way disrespectful of Federation culture. It had nothing to do with Federation culture, only Federal Law.

And it was a situation where both sides should've been willing to compromise, though once the Ray died, releasing the shooter over to the Republic should've been a foregone conclusion. He killed a Tribal Chief. I would hope that if your President were killed on Republic soil by a Republic citizen, the Federation would insist on extradition, or does the Federation really have so little respect for its leaders?


Do I look like a Feddie to you?

Obviously, if Heth were to be killed in some other nation's space, we wouldn't want his killer extradited, except possibly to give them a medal. But even if it was a leader we actually cared about, we're not so arrogant as to completely ignore some other people's laws and customs.
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#156 - 2013-05-27 17:37:53 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
You make a lot of accusations with little fact to support them you know.

Still want reference that the Federal Navy was using the Matari as a meatshield to cover their own tails, because I've not found reference to anything like that in previous joint operations.


We not in court mon.

Jus tellin how it is, one human to another.

Anyway

An incident this big is sure to attract all sorts of agencies, resources and big shots, we'll know more in the coming weeks, and if I end up being wrong about a Federation conspiracy to assassinate the Ray then I'll pony up an apology.

Till then I think it's wise to reserve judgements (fat chance, I know, just speakin for me personally.)
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#157 - 2013-05-27 18:37:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
Katarina Musana wrote:

First off, the majority, if not all, of the victims were Matari, regardless of citizenship.


Pardon me to interrupt, but they were also for most of them Federal citizens. This is part of the crux of the matter.

Cipher7 wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
You make a lot of accusations with little fact to support them you know.

Still want reference that the Federal Navy was using the Matari as a meatshield to cover their own tails, because I've not found reference to anything like that in previous joint operations.


We not in court mon.

Jus tellin how it is, one human to another.


I must be dreaming.
Rioghal Morgan
Pixel Navigators
AimogMart
#158 - 2013-05-27 18:58:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Rioghal Morgan
Katarina Musana wrote:


First off, the majority, if not all, of the victims were Matari, regardless of citizenship. Second, a Matari Tribal Chief was one of the victims. Third, the crime has been made clear to have been anti-Matari in purpose.

Insisting on extradition was in no way disrespectful of Federation culture. It had nothing to do with Federation culture, only Federal Law.

And it was a situation where both sides should've been willing to compromise, though once the Ray died, releasing the shooter over to the Republic should've been a foregone conclusion. He killed a Tribal Chief. I would hope that if your President were killed on Republic soil by a Republic citizen, the Federation would insist on extradition, or does the Federation really have so little respect for its leaders?


You mention the ethnic origin of some but not all of the victims as if that somehow entitles you to spit on the traditional judicial system of your oldest ally and then claim that that's not obviously disrespectful of Gallentean culture? That's disrespect of the worst kind. An ally trusts their friends to take care of their own business that happens in their sovereign territory.

And yes, I think the Federation would respect the Republic's sovereignty and let the prosecution happen in the Republic. That's how allies act.

Furthermore, you don't get to send two fleets over our border and somehow insist that the Minmatar are still the most grievously wronged party here. They murdered thousands! I don't deny the Federation has mishandled this but insisting on how you''re still being victimized after your government committed a war-crime is just insane. Do you not think the Federation deserves justice or is that something only Minmatar deserve out of this whole tragedy? Are we just supposed to grin and bear it while we bury our dead while catering to your needs all the time? I hear scarcely a peep from anyone about that.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#159 - 2013-05-27 20:28:06 UTC
Cipher7 wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
You make a lot of accusations with little fact to support them you know.

Still want reference that the Federal Navy was using the Matari as a meatshield to cover their own tails, because I've not found reference to anything like that in previous joint operations.


We not in court mon.

Jus tellin how it is, one human to another.


I don't deal in your fantasy make believe conspiracy bullshit.

Give me facts, or don't waste my time with your inane prattle.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#160 - 2013-05-27 23:07:38 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Katarina Musana wrote:


We have never refused to acknowledge Federation culture.


Katarina Musana wrote:


Federation "culture" (if you can even call it that)


Uhuh. Helps to remember what you wrote the day before.



I fully acknowledged they have something they call culture. Also, I am not the Republic. I am merely one citizen, who's not even directly involved in Government.