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Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence

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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#121 - 2013-05-25 14:35:21 UTC
Petrified wrote:
An interesting idea. Generally, when I cloak, it is because I want to not be noticed (I could care less if you saw me in local or not, I just want to avoid being caught as I do what I do what I do best while cloaked). Not being seen in local until I either spoke or de-cloaked would be an added bonus.

That is true, but do keep in mind that you will want someone able to report visible presences if you are moving caps around.
You can't see local when cloaked either.

And with a recloaking delay of 30 seconds, that carrier or other cap vessel is going to be exposed a painfully long time while you wait to use the cloak again, should you find that dropping the cloak was a bad idea....

...and the locals, if they know you're in a cap, were told exactly when to scan for you because you appeared in local.

This solution favors neither side, but players who make an effort:
Fortune favors the prepared mind.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#122 - 2013-05-25 14:42:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Nikk Narrel
Gerrick Palivorn wrote:
I don't know how I missed this one Nikk, 100% support. Also free bump to a great idea!

Thank you!

I have been finding most who did not agree also happened to not have read all the details.

The only exception seems to be the ones who want local for all intel, possibly because they do not trust or lack others who might provide effort based intel.
They seem to think they should have play opportunity outside of high sec with no more risk than high sec, or risk in theory only.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Jen Ann Tonique
Doomheim
#123 - 2013-05-25 16:03:57 UTC
People won't "AFK cloak" once local is gone. I always figured AFK cloaking was done by masochist types. If you take that away they will find something else to do because they lose their ability to assert control and power in that manner.



Jen Ann Tonique does not approve of this product and/or service. Any comments contained herin are to be taken not seriously and no person/s shall hold Jen Ann Tonique responsible for any damage real and/or imagined due to use or misuse of above comment. By reading this statement you agree to the above terms.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#124 - 2013-05-25 16:59:53 UTC
Jen Ann Tonique wrote:
People won't "AFK cloak" once local is gone. I always figured AFK cloaking was done by masochist types. If you take that away they will find something else to do because they lose their ability to assert control and power in that manner.

For the version you suggest, I agree.

For genuine AFK while cloaked, I dunno, I suspect they might do it occasionally, but not for the reasons stereotyped right now.

More of a "I gotta go AFK for reason X, I sure hope noone hunts me down while I am vulnerable like that..."

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#125 - 2013-05-25 22:31:27 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Jen Ann Tonique wrote:
People won't "AFK cloak" once local is gone. I always figured AFK cloaking was done by masochist types. If you take that away they will find something else to do because they lose their ability to assert control and power in that manner.

For the version you suggest, I agree.

For genuine AFK while cloaked, I dunno, I suspect they might do it occasionally, but not for the reasons stereotyped right now.

More of a "I gotta go AFK for reason X, I sure hope noone hunts me down while I am vulnerable like that..."



Quite agreed with that. Since I perform eyes on scouting activities for fleet actions, seeing local is not as critical as seeing the space around me. And Alts are alts for a reason - neutral or not.

The: "Oh dear, X in real life is happening" is always a good reason to AFK cloak and my most common.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#126 - 2013-05-26 14:58:08 UTC
Bump for those with questions.

This may have an answer not previously considered.

o7

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#127 - 2013-05-26 18:59:12 UTC
Decloaking...

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Bytestorm
Liga der hessischen Gentlemen
#128 - 2013-06-03 19:54:35 UTC
Just give cloakys a timeout. Lets say 5 Minutes per Cloaking-Level. So if you go AFK you will get visible after 5-25 Minutes unless you reactivate the cloak.

Because, loggin in and going to work for 8 hours just to mess up the fun of a lot of players is not a good gamemechanic at all.
Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#129 - 2013-06-03 19:58:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Onomerous
Bytestorm wrote:
Just give cloakys a timeout. Lets say 5 Minutes per Cloaking-Level. So if you go AFK you will get visible after 5-25 Minutes unless you reactivate the cloak.

Because, loggin in and going to work for 8 hours just to mess up the fun of a lot of players is not a good gamemechanic at all.


Same for being docked up or in a POS: You automatically get ejected into space and a beacon shows everyone where you are. ;)



/end sarcasm posted in another thread to fix something which isn't broken
Markiel
Perkone
Caldari State
#130 - 2013-06-03 20:34:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Markiel
Nikk Narrel wrote:

Coming in by gate? If your corp or alliance can't be bothered to keep an eye on access points to your space, just how long do you expect to hold onto it? 200 gate flares should be noticed at some point when gate hopping, especially if they did not start in the next system over.


So you funnel them in slowly over the course of a couple of hours? Since no one can see your fleet in local they can't really tell if you're still there or not. I've never been to null, but this seems to just hand cloakies kills on a platter. Oh, and if I want intel just decloak for your 5 seconds, drop out your insta-8 combat probes and recloak. I'll get a good idea of who is in system during that 5 second window, and then be able to scout with probes. Oh, and once an hour I get to be a boogie man and redeploy the probes.

Now if I wanted to get said fleet of 200 SBs in, I would wait to drop the probes until we had everyone in. Or hell, I'd have already scanned down POS's, safes, belts, etc, as well as set BMs in them all at the proper ranges. I could literally be gathering intel in a system for days without anyone knowing I was there.


Edit: Oh, and as for having a big bad neut show up in local. Can't you just get whatever ship travels the fastest, get him to a safe, and pilot down into space with a cap stable MWD on travelling at say 3-5k/second? Not cloaked, still not really able to be caught by anyone, even if you get scanned down, by the time they warp into you you'll be at least 20k away...probably not the best tactic, but if its in a cheap inty???
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#131 - 2013-06-03 22:01:20 UTC
Bytestorm wrote:
Just give cloakys a timeout. Lets say 5 Minutes per Cloaking-Level. So if you go AFK you will get visible after 5-25 Minutes unless you reactivate the cloak.

Because, loggin in and going to work for 8 hours just to mess up the fun of a lot of players is not a good gamemechanic at all.


Actually, it is working exactly like it is supposed to.

Local provides carebears with excellent intel to avoid PvP.

Some PvPers have turned local's strength against the carebears.

Working as intended.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#132 - 2013-06-03 22:06:49 UTC
Markiel wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:

Coming in by gate? If your corp or alliance can't be bothered to keep an eye on access points to your space, just how long do you expect to hold onto it? 200 gate flares should be noticed at some point when gate hopping, especially if they did not start in the next system over.


So you funnel them in slowly over the course of a couple of hours? Since no one can see your fleet in local they can't really tell if you're still there or not. I've never been to null, but this seems to just hand cloakies kills on a platter. Oh, and if I want intel just decloak for your 5 seconds, drop out your insta-8 combat probes and recloak. I'll get a good idea of who is in system during that 5 second window, and then be able to scout with probes. Oh, and once an hour I get to be a boogie man and redeploy the probes.

Now if I wanted to get said fleet of 200 SBs in, I would wait to drop the probes until we had everyone in. Or hell, I'd have already scanned down POS's, safes, belts, etc, as well as set BMs in them all at the proper ranges. I could literally be gathering intel in a system for days without anyone knowing I was there.


Edit: Oh, and as for having a big bad neut show up in local. Can't you just get whatever ship travels the fastest, get him to a safe, and pilot down into space with a cap stable MWD on travelling at say 3-5k/second? Not cloaked, still not really able to be caught by anyone, even if you get scanned down, by the time they warp into you you'll be at least 20k away...probably not the best tactic, but if its in a cheap inty???


Why is it people don't consider that Nikk has also posted a method to detect cloaked ships in system as well? Granted I suppose you could move 200 people into a system over a 3 month period, and then surprise, surprise you all log in at once and gank a few people and then what? Nothing because you are in 200 stealth bombers.

Sure, really going to happen. Roll

Oh and no, you'll be scanned down and caught in your MWDing inty. The scanner scans you and warps in a few times, gets an idea of the direction you are travelling. Then his buddy in the dramiel with snake implants burns after you and catches you and your are dead and podded while at work.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#133 - 2013-06-03 22:13:30 UTC
Markiel wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:

Coming in by gate? If your corp or alliance can't be bothered to keep an eye on access points to your space, just how long do you expect to hold onto it? 200 gate flares should be noticed at some point when gate hopping, especially if they did not start in the next system over.


So you funnel them in slowly over the course of a couple of hours? Since no one can see your fleet in local they can't really tell if you're still there or not. I've never been to null, but this seems to just hand cloakies kills on a platter. Oh, and if I want intel just decloak for your 5 seconds, drop out your insta-8 combat probes and recloak. I'll get a good idea of who is in system during that 5 second window, and then be able to scout with probes. Oh, and once an hour I get to be a boogie man and redeploy the probes.

Now if I wanted to get said fleet of 200 SBs in, I would wait to drop the probes until we had everyone in. Or hell, I'd have already scanned down POS's, safes, belts, etc, as well as set BMs in them all at the proper ranges. I could literally be gathering intel in a system for days without anyone knowing I was there.


Edit: Oh, and as for having a big bad neut show up in local. Can't you just get whatever ship travels the fastest, get him to a safe, and pilot down into space with a cap stable MWD on travelling at say 3-5k/second? Not cloaked, still not really able to be caught by anyone, even if you get scanned down, by the time they warp into you you'll be at least 20k away...probably not the best tactic, but if its in a cheap inty???

Regarding the part I underlined, it was pretty obvious from reading the rest.

I can understand how perception could make someone unfamiliar with this style think that.

The truth is, serious corps and alliances monitor choke points into their territory. This kind of evolved as a necessity, since otherwise roaming fleets would stroll in and disrupt the economics behind the scenes too often.

I am not saying a full blown gate camp exists at these points, some are just observation early warning points, so either a fleet can be made ready or the vulnerable assets prepped for evac, as needed.
These posts are generally watched carefully, especially during ops of any importance.

200 ships are not going to sneak anywhere inside the territory of a properly organized alliance. You also won't find vacant systems of any strategic value, for obvious reasons. Every alliance can access a titan at some point, and a free back door into your target's space like that usually results in sov being lost pretty quickly.

One name flickering in and out of local might be missed, sure. But 200? Only in a FC's wet dreams, lol.

As to the inty mentioned at the end, AFK Speeding has been described by myself and others often. Love it.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#134 - 2013-06-24 18:19:26 UTC
This really would end AFK influence.

Paranoia is another issue, but that just adds a spice to it....

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#135 - 2013-06-25 19:52:17 UTC
How would this change in local affect the new exploration metrics?

Would exploration ships count on local, and make it harder or easier for them to be caught?

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Loki Feiht
Warcrows
THE OLD SCHOOL
#136 - 2013-06-25 19:59:33 UTC
I really do wish people would stop going on about 'afk cloaking', i would be +1 for the old destroyer subhunting idea as well as the removal of local in all sov systems without the relevant upkeep (no, not a can turn local on and off or control who gets to see who, just a simple if you pay upkeep then you get local) it would definatly provide an extra dimension to all those unclaimed systems Big smile

Though but they have made combat probing a lot easier now as well so....

More NPC - Randomly Generated Modular Content thread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=220858
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#137 - 2013-06-25 20:11:05 UTC
Ruze wrote:
How would this change in local affect the new exploration metrics?

Would exploration ships count on local, and make it harder or easier for them to be caught?

For those wanting exploration, this would have local displaying ONLY ships that were currently in space.

Those ships docked or inside POS shields would not become aware of you directly from local, nor would any cloaked pilot.

Unless you encounter a gate camp, most pilots in space that hang around systems are generally doing PvE activities.
As such, your appearance could seem threatening to them. They may seek shelter, or seek you if they think themselves up to it.

Otherwise, pilots traveling between systems seem the most likely to notice you. Would they notify others? Depends who it is, really.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#138 - 2013-06-25 20:14:14 UTC
Loki Feiht wrote:
I really do wish people would stop going on about 'afk cloaking', i would be +1 for the old destroyer subhunting idea as well as the removal of local in all sov systems without the relevant upkeep (no, not a can turn local on and off or control who gets to see who, just a simple if you pay upkeep then you get local) it would definatly provide an extra dimension to all those unclaimed systems Big smile

Though but they have made combat probing a lot easier now as well so....

This idea neutralizes AFK cloaking as a threat. It won't happen simply because by cloaking you would disappear from local chat.

It is intended that this work hand in hand with this cloak hunting idea:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2668453#post2668453

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#139 - 2013-06-25 20:39:47 UTC
Deny D-Scan for cloaked ships and it'll be ok. Technically speaking: cloaking should provide enough interference for all ship's sensors rendering them useless while cloaked, else ship is not truly cloaked and can be scanned.

Quote:
To become invisible you need to have light move around you then continue to the eye of an observer or have the light photons pass through you without interacting with the matter making up your body. If the photons are going around you, you won't have any entering your eye. If the photon go through your body (including your eyes) they will not interact with your retina. You may avoid this problem but you need to allow the photons to interact with your entire eye (lens, vitrines fluid and retina) and if you do that your eyes will be visible to others, and that would give you away.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#140 - 2013-06-25 20:52:13 UTC
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
Deny D-Scan for cloaked ships and it'll be ok. Technically speaking: cloaking should provide enough interference for all ship's sensors rendering them useless while cloaked, else ship is not truly cloaked and can be scanned.

Quote:
To become invisible you need to have light move around you then continue to the eye of an observer or have the light photons pass through you without interacting with the matter making up your body. If the photons are going around you, you won't have any entering your eye. If the photon go through your body (including your eyes) they will not interact with your retina. You may avoid this problem but you need to allow the photons to interact with your entire eye (lens, vitrines fluid and retina) and if you do that your eyes will be visible to others, and that would give you away.

The optical aspect of the cloak is quite cinematic, but falls far short of the greater needs of cloaking.

It's not that they are invisible to sight, but that they are undetectable to the sensors used to scan with.

And they can't see local chat. That is an enormous penalty.

Don't worry about their sensors, it is just as likely they are using probes in any case, and those will remain quite detectable to any pinging their sensors about.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...