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Research costs with new fuel prices

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Juwi Kotch
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2013-05-12 21:45:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Juwi Kotch
The benefit from private POS would be more the time savings. No cueing and faster research. Production is not the problem, unless you have some odd jobs and requirements where faster production would count.

If you need to research something now that only needs a few days to be researched, but you have to get in line for more then a month till the research can begin, you might want to think about paying a mil ISK or two for the job. Or if you want to research a capital ship BPO from zero to optimal or even perfection, you can do it in a private POS within less than a year, while including all the waiting times between jobs you have to invest up to two years or even more at a public research slot. Some may be willing to pay a hundred million or two for that.

At a large research POS with a mix of standard and advance labs you can have around 20 copy slots, 30 ME slots and 20 PE slots, in total 70 slots, plus more than 40 invention slots, which all run significantly faster then the NPC competition. When you can sell 100 slots at full capacity for a year, you need only 700 ISK per hour to pay for the fuel. Calculate with 50% usage (or just reserve 50% for yourself) and try to make 100% profit on fuel costs, and you are fine with 3k ISK per hour. Not that much more than a NPC slot, but much, much quicker.

If the market allows for that, you can try to sell the slots for 5k, 10k, 50k or 100k ISK per hour, and make some nice profits with your POS.

The selling point is not the price, but the much faster research.

"Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime, and every kindness, we birth our future." Sonmi-451
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#42 - 2013-05-13 04:56:58 UTC
Juwi Kotch wrote:
The benefit from private POS would be more the time savings. No cueing and faster research. Production is not the problem, unless you have some odd jobs and requirements where faster production would count.

If you need to research something now that only needs a few days to be researched, but you have to get in line for more then a month till the research can begin, you might want to think about paying a mil ISK or two for the job. Or if you want to research a capital ship BPO from zero to optimal or even perfection, you can do it in a private POS within less than a year, while including all the waiting times between jobs you have to invest up to two years or even more at a public research slot. Some may be willing to pay a hundred million or two for that.

At a large research POS with a mix of standard and advance labs you can have around 20 copy slots, 30 ME slots and 20 PE slots, in total 70 slots, plus more than 40 invention slots, which all run significantly faster then the NPC competition. When you can sell 100 slots at full capacity for a year, you need only 700 ISK per hour to pay for the fuel. Calculate with 50% usage (or just reserve 50% for yourself) and try to make 100% profit on fuel costs, and you are fine with 3k ISK per hour. Not that much more than a NPC slot, but much, much quicker.

If the market allows for that, you can try to sell the slots for 5k, 10k, 50k or 100k ISK per hour, and make some nice profits with your POS.

The selling point is not the price, but the much faster research.


This is basically irellevant, your arguing from a single persons perspective not from the universal impact on the economy. The npc slots will eventually bring the products to the market and at prices the players cant compete with. Thus its injecting value into the game to the more patient and thus an afk and non active gamestyle. This is bad in every way. Your example with the cap BPO is correct, but its a special case and not a useful example regarding the issue of npc nerfing.

With the rather considerable number of npc slots, and I dont have the actual numbers the scale should be obvious. The main argument here is about granting a function that supports player, p2p interaction, and public free markets.. Preferably done in a way that makes the game a lot more fun, and less like queueing in Russian food stores during the communistic reign.
Juwi Kotch
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2013-05-13 08:03:06 UTC
From a macroeconomic point of view, the main effect of private POSes being made available to the broad public would be researched BPOs and BPCs being more and faster available, reducing the prices of researched BPOs and BPCs, and reducing the demand for such prints because pilots will more often choose to research and copy prints themselves rather than buying them of the markets. So the number of researched BPOs and BPOs will increase while the demand to purchase those will decrease.

This will probably reduce the prices of ships and modules a bit, but I don't think significantly, since the price of the BPO or BPC as of today already has only a minor part in price calculations for ships and modules. Another effect could be an increased chance of opportunity because there will be more blueprints available for production for less prices and thus a slight tweaking of the offer and demand relation with an additional effect on price reductions for ships and modules. There will be slightly more ships and modules on the market, but the demand will most likely not change just because of that.

All in all, I believe that with integrating private POSes into the ingame research slot offerings we will see a somewhat significant effect on the prices of researched BPOs and BPCs, but not so much on the prices of ships and modules.

The main effect would be in fact for the single pilot, who will have a much better chance to get researched BPOs or BPCs within an acceptable timeframe compared to today. Researching would change from a cumbersome waiting game to an actively usable system to react on demands and challenges in game. And in the end, it is the single pilot who decides what the economy of EVE looks like (given that CCP does not interfere).

"Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime, and every kindness, we birth our future." Sonmi-451
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#44 - 2013-05-13 12:15:31 UTC
It is really hard to predict that without numbers..

The number of npc slots, the price of them and the fact that they always run perma plugged. This brings me to suggest that capacity from npc is way higher than that of effective player POS slots. I could be wrong ofc, its hard to tell without the stats.

The sudden removal of a cheap if not almost free research would def not reduce the price much, if at all. I would say the opposite would be true. Suddenly you would see that players would actually add a higher price impact on research because the price from players will directly reflect the cost of fuel, tool investment and risk. With the added strain on ICE mining, and potential reduced labor spend in traditional mining its very likely that all the prices will go up. One thing to counter this might be the new decryptors, but we dont know how much labor will shift to exploration, nor do we know the drop rates.

So all in all the numbers are not in yet. Even if price goes down from added competition that will still mean a more fair and competition based wealth distribution, and will make gameplay a lot more interesting for all players. With the exception of those that lived of afk, bots and other peoples free labor.

Bottom up economy needs this change desperately, regardless of price direction.
Airto TLA
Acorn's Wonder Bars
#45 - 2013-05-15 16:08:56 UTC
Caleb Ayrania wrote:
Kara Books wrote:
Invention is ALLLOOOT faster with POS then NPC, pos is far better if you set it up correctly, AKA specialize.


How is that relevant if you speed things up to 2x speed you still have to compete with prices in cost per hour..

With a cost of 1 isk / hour in some low sec you can speed things up by a factor 500 it still wont change the competition issue..

Low sec npc POS as I mentioned is a valid strategy from a risk reward persective, but it should never be better than say a player run POS in low sec.

As things are the npc option is way too safe, and way too cheap.. So its only a matter of patience that is the benefit to POS and p2p operations..

As stated the npc slot problem is 10 years old and it needs a huge nerf bat as soon as possible..

Personally I relate to the carebears and the fact that they dont want the hassle and risk of running a POS, but they should not be wining on that strategy..

npc slot prices should always be at least 25-100% above what players run at least, and ideally it should be removed entirely and give us a public renting feature in some way.. There is still way to many npc functions that serve hardly any purpose except bending the game in a bad direction. Sinks and faucets are fine, bu slots dont sink isk or materials in any way useful to the game economy, so leaving this as is would be a mistake.. Especially now that decryptors and similar will make things even higher risk, and strain logistics even more..



NPC station lines are limited by availibility and speed, not price. As someone mentioned when he is paying a plex cost for his research slots (since the account basically does nothing else speed is what matters since he needs to turn over his research slots as many times per month as possible, and he has to wait inline or his alts need more slots than is available, he is wasting effort.

Yes the NPC slots are more effecient if you can find one, which is rare.
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#46 - 2013-05-15 22:53:01 UTC
Airto TLA wrote:


NPC station lines are limited by availibility and speed, not price. As someone mentioned when he is paying a plex cost for his research slots (since the account basically does nothing else speed is what matters since he needs to turn over his research slots as many times per month as possible, and he has to wait inline or his alts need more slots than is available, he is wasting effort.

Yes the NPC slots are more effecient if you can find one, which is rare.


Again this is totally outside the relevance of the discussion. Time and patience is not a problem if the result of it is a reduction in expenditure costs that takes cost down to 1/3 or even less. The price and value of researched products is based on the cost and ofc the supply and demand. The relevant here is that its not a problem waiting in line 30 days, you can still queue the job, and the resulting cost will make of for the waiting. I think the case is that these arguments are from people that do not themselves have this patience, and thus cant see why anyone would bother having it.

I already mentiond that in the calculations for a small POS profitability I used the highest prices and safest locations npc wise. The cost goes all the way down to less than 10 isk per hour. That is such a huge difference that on a macro scale the impact is huge. I also mentioned that the only relevant data that is not available to me is the effective hours from player POS versus NPC Slots. My suspicion is that since npc have hardly any gaps /downtime, they will be taking up a considerable portion of EVE research. This means that the players that actually actively run a POS competes with afk gameplay and are loosing. That is the core of the issue, not any discussions of patience or the behavior impact of queues or even whether you can effectively utilize the npc slots. The fact is that they are perma plugged, so the effect is a fact. The only extremely long queues are actually on ME, and that is not the most relevant problem, invention and copying is a bigger problem from a production cycle perspective.
Drachiel
Mercury LLC
#47 - 2013-05-16 01:29:17 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
I'd say no. Though I'd /like/ to say yes.

The fuel cost isn't the only cost involved when it comes to researching things in a POS. It's the only direct cost (assuming you treat the cost of buying the pos as cap expenditure), but you still have the time that the characters research slot is taken up.

While I've not spent a lot of time looking at the research market, I suspect that cost is treated higher. And it's not going to change.



Nah. It would be, but stations are worthless for timely research and copying is done at POS.

Research valuation is very closely tied to fuel costs. It won't double though since POS have other uses like manufacturing.
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#48 - 2013-05-16 14:32:42 UTC
Drachiel wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
I'd say no. Though I'd /like/ to say yes.

The fuel cost isn't the only cost involved when it comes to researching things in a POS. It's the only direct cost (assuming you treat the cost of buying the pos as cap expenditure), but you still have the time that the characters research slot is taken up.

While I've not spent a lot of time looking at the research market, I suspect that cost is treated higher. And it's not going to change.



Nah. It would be, but stations are worthless for timely research and copying is done at POS.

Research valuation is very closely tied to fuel costs. It won't double though since POS have other uses like manufacturing.


All ME slots on npc stations are filled, and so are copying.. So i think its fair to say that not all research is done at POS.

If npc slots got nerfed and had dynamic pricing there would be some huge price developments on research values, and the cost of FUEL and POS running would become much more interesting.
Haulie Berry
#49 - 2013-05-22 17:57:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Malcanis wrote:


This idea has my attention.

Can some concerned person spell out the implications for me?



If someone is renting a slot from me, and I want to take my tower down, what happens? Am I blocked from taking it down? Do they get their job cancelled? If so, what happens to their payment? Is it payment on delivery? If so, is there anything preventing them from executing a denial of service on my lines by queuing up long term jobs and canceling them before delivery?

Same for fuel, or even someone coming along and kicking the tower down.

It seems like it would be difficult to arrange it in such a fashion that one party or the other does not hold a large enough percentage of the power in the relationship that it negates the value of the system.

In theory, I like the idea a lot. I'm not sure it could be practically implement in Eve, though.
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#50 - 2013-05-22 22:33:55 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


This idea has my attention.

Can some concerned person spell out the implications for me?



If someone is renting a slot from me, and I want to take my tower down, what happens? Am I blocked from taking it down? Do they get their job cancelled? If so, what happens to their payment? Is it payment on delivery? If so, is there anything preventing them from executing a denial of service on my lines by queuing up long term jobs and canceling them before delivery?

Same for fuel, or even someone coming along and kicking the tower down.

It seems like it would be difficult to arrange it in such a fashion that one party or the other does not hold a large enough percentage of the power in the relationship that it negates the value of the system.

In theory, I like the idea a lot. I'm not sure it could be practically implement in Eve, though.


The easy solution is to keep the npc slots in a transition phase. Fixing their price mechanics and reducing numbers to half the current numbers. If a player to player slot becomes unavailable the npc slots take over the job and puts it in its queue. So the job finish and the difference in cost hit is taken by the npc, but a bill for the difference gets issued to the player slot renter that "defaulted" the slot. As long as unpaid bills like that exist new slots can not be rented to npc in that faction.

That would be the "easy" solution. Also not particularly hard to plan development wise afaik.

Again the important aspect is showing Up Time on p2p slots, so players can know what risk versus reward there is.
Adunh Slavy
#51 - 2013-05-23 00:02:24 UTC
On this question of NPC pricing and transition.

Do this in phases.

Phase one
Players can rent POS slots publicly
POS owner sets their price
Keep NPC prices the same old NPC prices for just one month.
Give the new system a month, check for bugs, problems and exploits.

Phase Two
Reset NPC prices to the average price of all paid, public POS slot usage fees, plus 50%.
Adjust NPC prices weekly.
Do this for three months. Let players ramp up availability and allow competition to do its thing.

Phase three
Stop allowing any new jobs at NPC facilities.
Close down NPC slots as they become idle and force delivery.
Do not cancel any player jobs.

Phase four
After the last player job, in an NPC slot is completed, remove all NPC slots game wide.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Demoness666
Equilibrium Tech Labs
#52 - 2013-05-23 09:24:42 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


This idea has my attention.

Can some concerned person spell out the implications for me?



If someone is renting a slot from me, and I want to take my tower down, what happens? Am I blocked from taking it down? Do they get their job cancelled? If so, what happens to their payment? Is it payment on delivery? If so, is there anything preventing them from executing a denial of service on my lines by queuing up long term jobs and canceling them before delivery?

Same for fuel, or even someone coming along and kicking the tower down.

It seems like it would be difficult to arrange it in such a fashion that one party or the other does not hold a large enough percentage of the power in the relationship that it negates the value of the system.

In theory, I like the idea a lot. I'm not sure it could be practically implement in Eve, though.


Colletral fee, treat it as courier contract. you wasted my items and my time then you have to pay for the colletral fee.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#53 - 2013-05-23 11:37:16 UTC
Demoness666 wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


This idea has my attention.

Can some concerned person spell out the implications for me?



If someone is renting a slot from me, and I want to take my tower down, what happens? Am I blocked from taking it down? Do they get their job cancelled? If so, what happens to their payment? Is it payment on delivery? If so, is there anything preventing them from executing a denial of service on my lines by queuing up long term jobs and canceling them before delivery?

Same for fuel, or even someone coming along and kicking the tower down.

It seems like it would be difficult to arrange it in such a fashion that one party or the other does not hold a large enough percentage of the power in the relationship that it negates the value of the system.

In theory, I like the idea a lot. I'm not sure it could be practically implement in Eve, though.


Colletral fee, treat it as courier contract. you wasted my items and my time then you have to pay for the colletral fee.



I'd set this at the owners side. So the person renting it has a choice of what to go for. In part to avoid 'I set up jobs in your POS, then war dec you, to get money out of you' being quite so easy. Then people pick the slots with the collateral they feel is appropriate, for the hourly cost the owner deems appropriate for that collateral.

Also stops a delay when you just want a short run (no bidding stage)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#54 - 2013-05-23 16:28:54 UTC
No need to overcomplicate things.

there are two parts of rental payment. The installation fee and the hourly cost.

This installation fee is always paid up front. The hourly upon completion.

The spreading of these would be all that is needed to decide risk vs reward.

As mentioned Up time needs to be visible.

Anonymity is upheld by npc station, so its held in "npc name"

In wallet it also show up as anonymous.

The exception could be made with mutual good standing, then both parties can see rented to and from..

On cancellation (from the POS, take down or offlining) the npc shifts the job to the next slot in line and demands the increased fee in a way similar to impounded where the release price is the difference. (Yes there is a very small chance that there might be some strange scams developed, but nothing beyond what already exist)

On cancellation from slot renter the full agreed amount from initial install is paid, this was ofc held in escrow by the npc. So cancel is costly abuse and benefits the slot owner.

I see no issues with the above solution in effect..
Nevryn Takis
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2013-05-25 13:06:17 UTC
How do you plan on figuring "UP" time?

As a corp my main has had a POS up for about 5 years.. but originally it was a large POS
After various IRL factors which meant a number of players left including the orginal CEO we couldn't afford to run the large POS anymore so took it down for a couple of months whilst we rebuilt standings and put up a medium in it's place.

If this sort of change goes through then taking down the medium and putting the large back up with additional labs/manufacturing facilities might be viable.
But theoretically that would reset the "UP" time.. Unless we get modular POSes in the mean time and I could just scale it to meet demand :)

Overall I'd love to see this implemented .. might even mean I continue to play the game for a while longer
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#56 - 2013-05-25 14:13:46 UTC
Nevryn Takis wrote:
How do you plan on figuring "UP" time?

As a corp my main has had a POS up for about 5 years.. but originally it was a large POS
After various IRL factors which meant a number of players left including the orginal CEO we couldn't afford to run the large POS anymore so took it down for a couple of months whilst we rebuilt standings and put up a medium in it's place.

If this sort of change goes through then taking down the medium and putting the large back up with additional labs/manufacturing facilities might be viable.
But theoretically that would reset the "UP" time.. Unless we get modular POSes in the mean time and I could just scale it to meet demand :)

Overall I'd love to see this implemented .. might even mean I continue to play the game for a while longer


The important thing about up-time showing is mainly to get a feeling of how "recent" an addition the slot is, and how likely they might be to take it down, or get dec etc.. So mostly to counter any potential "exploit/abuse" fast put up and take down, or questionable slots..

If the uptime is more than a month I think the risk factor is a non issue, and anything showing above 6 months is vanity numbers. Big smile Ofc showing total up-time of 5 years would be very stable rental supplier...
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