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Mapping part 2

Author
Komodo Askold
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#21 - 2011-10-31 15:01:37 UTC
You are making a very interesting topic here! I also always wondered where WH systems truly were...

Personally I always though they were inside the New Eden galaxy, close to K-space systems, but being unaccesible through stargates due to special natural phenomena in their areas. Their exact location in the map is the big question, and what you're discussing here.

A while ago, I made a topic asking for new environments and nebulae, showing more defined places rather than just a random, beautiful background. It seems the CCP art team is working exactly on that :D (I'm refering to the YouTube video you posted here). Looks like they want to show a very specific environment to certain regions, showing them from various angles and distances. What I was talking about in my topic is that there are many regions, which are said to have very specific lookings and to be unaccesible, which look like empty voids on the map. If we'll be able to see those regions from the surrounding systems, and we recongnise them from WH systems like they said in the video we could, then we'll see if those WH systems are, in fact, located in these empty holes in the map...

Here's my topic:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=138173#post138173

Another thing I wanted to say is the following: the in-game map covers a very, very small portion of the galaxy. There are million of systems inside any galaxy, so there's room enough for unkown ones ;)
LOL56
Tiger's Bite
The Serenity Syndicate
#22 - 2011-10-31 15:38:35 UTC
I have never been a fan of the theory that W-space relatively close to K-space. It simply boggles the mind that not a single one of New Eden likely many millions of astronomers, or even astronomical mapping computers, has ever managed to find any linking star positions from anywhere in W-space to anywhere in K-space, unless they are too far away for the light form one to reach the other (14 billion LY give or take), or at least far enough away it is rendered to difficult even for New Edens finest sensors to discern, or than an object between the two areas obscures one form the other.

One other random thought, if they were integrated closely to the inhabited cluster of New Eden, you would be able to cyno into and out of some of them, which you cannot.

TL;DR I think there very far away from each other.
Komodo Askold
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#23 - 2011-10-31 22:14:16 UTC
LOL56 wrote:
I have never been a fan of the theory that W-space relatively close to K-space. It simply boggles the mind that not a single one of New Eden likely many millions of astronomers, or even astronomical mapping computers, has ever managed to find any linking star positions from anywhere in W-space to anywhere in K-space, unless they are too far away for the light form one to reach the other (14 billion LY give or take), or at least far enough away it is rendered to difficult even for New Edens finest sensors to discern, or than an object between the two areas obscures one form the other.

One other random thought, if they were integrated closely to the inhabited cluster of New Eden, you would be able to cyno into and out of some of them, which you cannot.

TL;DR I think there very far away from each other.
That'ssomething I forgot to add and that keeps making me wonder. In WH space, any astronomer (specially in the EVE times) should be able to say 'Hey, that's Jita and that's Rens' or such. Unless those systems are really far away, or they're so inside nebulae and other disruptive environments that keep astronomers from getting accurate positions.

Sometimes I think that, as this game is in continuous evolving, this is a subject CCP didn't think much about and the beggining and will be 'updating' and making deeper soon.
Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
#24 - 2011-11-01 19:54:13 UTC

I've considered Anoikis to be far away since reading Lianda Burreau, CreoDron's lead astrophysicist, comment that.

Quote:
"Despite the strange nebulae, we believe what we are seeing here is a system not unlike those familiar to us in New Eden, although it is far, far away. Initial data gathered from intracluster medium analysis on the other side has led us to strongly consider the possibility that this system resides in a galaxy other than our own."


I think the nebula evidence is just another example of the limitations of the game environment, like the 1000LY neocom hypothesis.

I think what's really needed is an RP experimental way to resolve the question.
Jodis Talvanen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#25 - 2011-11-01 22:19:23 UTC
Just to throw some more data points onto the table:

All systems in-game have the same star-box. So that could be assumed to be OOC. (i.e. It's not made accurate enough to be an in-character evidence.) Same with the current (old) in-game nebulae.

Since there is no way to actually map out the WH systems in-game (even we can argue to have triangulated it out, we have no idea where is "north"), the map pictures I have posted within this thread will be strictly OOC. The JHHMMSS times will therefore not be any directional pointers in any form of 3D. It will be something else. Perhaps just a name, perhaps just a hint to the notion of "time", or perhaps even just an RP pseudo-directional system that we cannot actually decode.

Wyke Mossari wrote:

I think what's really needed is an RP experimental way to resolve the question.


Agreed. Also good find.
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#26 - 2011-11-02 12:19:07 UTC
I am trying to get some meaning out of those J-indentifiers too. What bugs me that they are called "locus signatures" somehow indicating they are used to identify a locus of... something. Stars or just he planets within the system?

It also bugs me that locus seperation is a major topic in genetics. Apparently the seperation has already been done as the signature already has been established, but again, what was the seperation done upon?

Work in progress.

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#27 - 2011-11-02 12:26:22 UTC
Jodis Talvanen wrote:
Wyke Mossari wrote:

I think what's really needed is an RP experimental way to resolve the question.


Agreed.

And I disagree.

I like this puzzle game and the pseudo science it involves, if not only because it allows me to use my real world knowledge on scientific methods and apply them on my hobby. In fact, it is pretty much the only thing keeping me interested in EVE which apparently is the major goal for these live events.

I would hate if some wannabe scientist could RP their way to results that are unantainable through normal gameplay.

Of course, I only speak for myself and am likely in minority.

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Jodis Talvanen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#28 - 2011-11-02 13:47:46 UTC
I think we are agreeing on the same things: solving the puzzle IC, but not LOLRP-solving it but actually solving it using in-game materials. At least that is what I understood what Wyke was saying.

The linkage to genetics and anoikis and gene signatures and all that is interesting but they are hardly in-character (arguable I know). So I'm not sure whether I want to understand it this way. Perhaps it's a good way to see how CCP got their ideas from but I hope the puzzle itself is not anything so realistic or reallifesciencey. Because not everyone is a PhD.

Perhaps what I am looking for is something that I can solve ICly, without bringing too much of my real life PhD into it. Perhaps this is just my personal preference.

I remember Dropbear once said the way to solve it is through induction, and I understand it as "just piecing together the in-game materials close enough to reach some sort of plausible conclusion" and it is something that can be done entirely IC. And I believe we have not reached the end of that tunnel. But having said that, there are other means to dissect the pizzle such as bringing the real life PhD into the equation, perhaps that is what I was trying to avoid.

But perhaps it is something unavoidable.
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#29 - 2011-11-02 18:30:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Jowen Datloran
I actually thought we were at the end of the tunnel a while back.

But as it is still possible for me to uncover new clues within the game I have dismissed that thought for now.

In spirit of the PhD, I have run the data you provided through a correlation analysis and the locus identifier (minus the 'J' prefix) has no significant correlation with either region, constellation, solar system, class, x- y- z-coordinates, radius or sun type, so whatever the "locus" refers to it appears to be most certainly none of these features.

And I agree on your stance that pure out of game sources does not work well as in-character information. I doubt that CCP has an expert on genetics or ancient south American native cultures hired to write their fiction, that is why I too doubt strongly when people argue based solely on out of game information. I have seen one wikipedia article too many.Smile

EDIT: A few more statistics; class correlates significantly with x- and z- coordinates, but not with radius or sun type. Sun type correlates strongly with radius and just significantly (P=0.0476) with the x-coordinate.

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Catheryn Martobi
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2011-11-02 22:41:52 UTC
Someone brought up in GD that if the WH systems get the same nebulae as k-space we may be able to determine a rough location based on the direction we are seeing it from and the size of the nebula in question. If we cannot see any familiar nebula then it would pretty much put the matter to rest.

Faceless avatars unite!

Cave Lord
Workers' Compensation
Sukyoko-Moussa Ltd.
#31 - 2011-11-03 05:29:03 UTC
Catheryn Martobi wrote:
Someone brought up in GD that if the WH systems get the same nebulae as k-space we may be able to determine a rough location based on the direction we are seeing it from and the size of the nebula in question. If we cannot see any familiar nebula then it would pretty much put the matter to rest.


This was what I meant earlier :P I should have elaborated and explained what I meant without making everyone watch the whole video, so thanks for clarifying :)


Also, some very good points were raised here. One of which I wanted to point out with my own view:
We should use in-game tools and items to try to piece this mystery together. Oog stuff is good too, but Oog stuff shouldn't be used to solve an issue when in-game evidence or limitations can go either way. We don't want to "fill the gaps" with "frog dna" (Jurassic park). But we do want to push the envelope. This is why I think the nebulae thing will be very exciting. We've been trying to figure out some kind of map/pattern for these WH systems for a while now, and here CCP comes along and says "We can give you an in-game mechanic to help". Arguably, this isn't just for us WH folks, but it is still pretty cool.

This is why I love CCP. For their in-game, EVE-enriching content and atmosphere. (Also why I believe the Nex store is horrid- but I won't get into that)


Jowen Datloran: Thanks for running the correlation analysis. I was wondering if you could clarify what you meant by "no significant correlation with either region, constellation, solar system, class, x- y- z-coordinates, radius or sun type". Was that an analysis on a per-system level? or the entire K/W-space clusters?
Example 1: Nothing is related to anything within the analyzed system itself.
Example 2: Nothing is related to ANYTHING in game (that we can see), things such as the EVE gate, Jove space, etc..
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#32 - 2011-11-03 10:32:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Jowen Datloran
Correlation is a rather simple way to test if there are similarities in trend between data sets, such as; if one increase does the other increase too or does it decrease. The analysis I did simply check if any of the other factors increase/decrease when the value of the locus signature does. If the value of the locus signature somehow were derived from one of the factors (such as certain sun types would give a higher locus signature) there would have been significant correlation between these.

As example, all the solar system, constellation and region ids correlate significant and strong with each other due to the obvious fact that these ids are grouped with each other.

I only tested w-space systems as they are the only ones with a locus signature.

The only interesting finding of the correlation analysis is the relation between sun types and system radius; apparently the size of a system is related to the type of sun within it.

Maybe the locus signature is related to other factors, it name hints it is, but we have yet to discover what those factors are.

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
#33 - 2011-11-03 12:24:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Wyke Mossari
When I suggest RP I still expect to run through the scientific process, not just for example, say "I find Jita, Rens, Amarr and Dodixie from my wormhole using a telescope and calculate the WH systems position". Instead I mean something similar to what Cave did but leave the final conclusion (or better raw data) to a GM event actor to deliver. The primary reason being we cannot be sure where the results are governed by pragmatism of the developers vs, intended lore.

Regarding correlation I mostly agree, but I did find a very slight correlation between the X position and wormhole class. This is partially to be expected we 'know' the higher class systems are further out. However the big issue is still the XYZ-position most of the rest of the data dump are OOC and dependent on that same pragmatism-intentional dichotomy.

Here is the data in Google Spreadsheets.

Locus Signatures

wormholeMapData (I've added a few working columns, the 'reduced' sheet excludes the three anomalous Locus Signatures).

J01226-0
J01259+0
J01340+6
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#34 - 2011-11-03 13:31:10 UTC
Yes, I found that correlation too (I mention it in my edit) as well as a correlation between class and the z-coordinate.

Though, as you, I too regard those coordinate values as mostly out of game information and not really useable. Same goes with region, constellation and solar system ids too.

Though, sun type and radius are measurements that can be expected that capsuleers should be able to do so those where fairly interesting to examine. It could be interesting to do the correlation analysis on more system features (number of planets, distance between celestial objects, cosmic signature appearence rates and so on).

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Nemesis Factor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#35 - 2011-11-03 21:50:53 UTC
Most recent dev blog said WH space will NOT be getting new nebluae, but the reason behind it was because they were so new, so they could get the same treatment in the future, but it's a dead end for now.
Jodis Talvanen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#36 - 2011-11-04 20:29:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Jodis Talvanen
So today I was looking at the skies in SISI (new nebulae) and hoping to find something distant and mysterious or something that you cannot travel to. I found nothing. Nothing visible in New Eden is not already accessable. Other than the "milky way" background surrounding the cluster that is visible from the outer most regions. But it doesn't look like it has anything to do with W-space.

But hey, at least now we know New Eden is a small part of a galaxy.

EDIT: Can someone do the same on SISI? Find something that you can't jump into? Just to confirm that W-space is no where near K-space? Thanks

EDIT2: You can check the regions by simply picking a random planet in it and go planet mode.
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