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How easy is it to kill a T2 Assault ship with a T1 frig ?
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Kitty McKitty
In Praise Of Shadows
#21 - 2011-10-26 17:06:06 UTC
It's simply a matter of having a fit that can counter theirs. The main element of player skill is knowing how ships are generally fitted.

First time I tried a Merlin I got the perfect opportunity after 2 jumps :S http://i.imgur.com/YZOgY.jpg

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Jude Lloyd
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2011-10-26 19:02:36 UTC
A rifter can kill a wolf or a jag without a web. A merlin can tank the dps incoming from some AF's.

I'm back!
Dibblerette
Solitude-Industries
#23 - 2011-10-27 01:17:24 UTC
Jude Lloyd wrote:
A rifter can kill a wolf or a jag without a web. A merlin can tank the dps incoming from some AF's.


Don't mess with this guy's Merlins. They're serious business. That said, I have (on my alt) killed a Daredevil with a Merlin. The key is to stay out of the oh-so-terrifying Blasters grasp. If you land at 20, overheat web and slow him down before he gets the 90% web on you, you could possibly burn him down before he can crawl close enough to melt you. With the rail buff coming, this might be a bit easier, I ended up using Gatling Pulse Lasers with scorch. Odd, but effective.
Taurean Eltanin
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2011-10-27 10:49:15 UTC
The answer is "it depends".

If the AF is active tanked, the answer is almost always "no". I've not yet met a T1 frig that could break the active tank on my Vengeance, for example.

If we assume the AF is not active tanked, the T1 needs to evade the AF's superior firepower while whittling away at the AF's superior tank. This means defeating either the tracking or range of the AF. Again, this is not always possible; my Vengeance can hit out to 15km and is tracking independent, for example.

So, a T1 can take on an AF if:

- the AF is not active tanked
- the T1 can control the range
- the T1 can defeat either the tracking or range of the AF

So, a Rifter with a web or tracking disruptor would probably have a decent shot at a Wolf, especially if it was not fitting tracking rigs/mods. That same Rifter might have a shot at an Ishkur, if it could kill the drones fast enough (although most Ishkurs are active tanked).

If you like reading about low sec piracy or wormhole pvp, you might enjoy my blog.
Zoe Alarhun
The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation
#25 - 2011-10-27 10:52:54 UTC
Hey Taurean - was in Tuskers HQ the other night ^_^

Thanks, I guess I'll not worry about not being able to take T2's for now. I'll be content with being able to solo most T1 ships with 70% chance to win.
Suleiman Shouaa
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#26 - 2011-10-27 11:17:28 UTC
A fair few AFs have weaknesses you can exploit in a T1 rifter, namely:

Enyo - Range and range control (no web)
Wolf - Tracking (with 200mms at least, not so with 125/150mm or if they have drop, which is fairly rare)
Retribution - Tracking
Ishkurs - Reliance on drones GENERALLY means you can keep them at range and go through their drones if you have a decent buffer tank along the lines of a Merlin

Saying that, I struggle to see a T1 frigate killing a competently fit Hawk or Vengeance - there's no way you can mitigate their DPS and both of them have pretty mean tanks, as well as fitting "full tackle".

In the end, I would say that piloting skill factors in more heavily than anything else - it is quite common to run into lackluster pilots and even compotent pilots are fairly rare. I can count on one hand the number of pilots who I consider being credible threats to me 1vs1 for example, just due to piloting skill.
Zoe Alarhun
The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation
#27 - 2011-10-27 11:20:07 UTC
Well I'll start skilling up for some delicious T2 ships soon. (once I've satisfied my stealth bomber craving). Then It's down to learning a new class of ships all over again. (industrialists rejoice).
Cletus Graeme
Shai Dorsai
#28 - 2011-10-27 21:33:15 UTC
As several people have already said, if you have the pilot/player skill - yes, it's possible - but you do need to be well skilled in small ship pvp and you need your opponent to be worse at it than you .

That's a lot of "ifs" so.....generally speaking, no, it's not possible - all things being (approx.) equal T2 will win against T1.

The exceptions to this are T1 faction ships which are sometimes as/more dangerous than T2 ships of the same class because of their special ship bonuses, EHP, speed etc (The Dramiel is currently the most popular example of this.)

In general, T1 ships do well against T2 ships one class lower. So T1 Frigs do well against Inties, T1 Cruisers do well against Assault Frigs and T1 BC do well against HACs (at close range anyway - long range is another story).
Clarina Kusoni
Perkone
Caldari State
#29 - 2011-10-27 22:28:04 UTC
Like everyone else has been saying, it depends on player skill, fitting, and trained skills (separate from player skill, of course). I'd expect a well-fit T1 to lose to a well-fit T2, but if the T2's lacking in one or more of the above aspects, you just might have a kill.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=13891938 <-- an example of how a crapfit can outweigh advantages granted by higher SP
Tallianna Avenkarde
Pyre of Gods
#30 - 2011-10-28 01:43:37 UTC
Love how the people that say piloting skill has no effect dissapear when the tuskers start posting.

Bet this happens in local to them as well :P

And a sudden plunge in the sullen swell. Ten fathoms deep on the road to hell.
Goose99
#31 - 2011-10-28 04:30:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Goose99
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
It actually complete misses the mark. If you pop a superior ship with superior fitting and superior SP, it has nothing to do with you being good, and everything to do with the other person sucking and making a mistake. Eve is a spreadsheet combat sim game, not a twitch shooter. There's no manual control. Assuming the other party is minimally competent and not make mistakes, the spreadsheet stats will show and there's nothing you can do no matter how "good" you are.


I don't think you know what your talking about.......

Superior ship or fitting: How exactly do you quantifiy superior in eve. Situtuations change and opponents change, so while some fits might be superior for an exact formulaic situation, the situtations you find yourself in are not so exact. Different shps have different roles, different weaknesses, and different strengths. When flying around, there are too many exterior factors to catagorically declare superior fittings and superior ships.

Eve is not a twitch game, so skill in that sense is not applicable. Skill in eve relates to applying your knowledge and manipulating your ship to give you an advantage. This is done at the fitting screen, this is done in setting up combat, and this is done during combat. Being good has EVERYTHING to do with applying your knowledge and controlling your ship. If you don't consider that skill, your ignorant.

I've killed many, many inties and the occassional AF's with t1 frigates... although its typically not easy to kill an AF. In particular, I've killed enyos (easy) and ishkurs (difficult) with standard fit rifters. They are NOT short fights (60-120s), and often backup will arrive and you'lI have to GTFO before finishing them off. I'm positive I could gank most harpies too, but they just aren't out and about much. The trick is keep out of blaster range and kill them with barrage. With ishkurs, you have to kill the drones first. Rail merlins and tristans should also win against blaster harpies and enyos, but rails will have a very hard time against ishkur drones. The Rail Merlin and Tristans are also very good against mwd-fit inties.

I'm pretty sure I can special fit a tristan/merlin/rifter to kill a standard fit wolf or retribution... but it would be a very close fight (50% chance of winning), and I would have to start the engagement at zero.

The repping ability of a vengence or hawk makes killing them with a t1 frigate very difficult.

Range control is a key aspect to winning most of the fights above. Most faction frigates have bonus' that either allow them to control range, or other bonuses that make range control ineffective.


Full of BS. You do realize "superior" as I put it is relative, right. And don't fit rails...Roll

Again, it's not a twitch shooter, where one headshot solves everything and there's a difference between "godlike" and "competent" player.

Eve is spreadsheet online. Options are limited. With inferior fit in inferior ship and inferior SP against the ship/fit you're fighting against, the only way to win if waiting for the other side to make a mistake. If he doesn't make a mistake, you're sunk. There is only the difference between "competent" and "incompetent." It's not your "skills" but rather the opponent's lack of it.
Siva Surya Kshatriya
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2011-10-28 07:10:22 UTC
It's very difficult unless you're in a faction frig. If you're in an ordinary T1 frig like a Rifter or Incursus, your best hope is to take advantage of your quicker speed and fit some kind of arty/long range kiting fit. If you're a really good pilot you should be able to stay at like 16k and pound them down without taking too much damage (unless it's a Wolf or even a Jag depending on the fit). You may not even break their tank though, or at least before they call in backup.
Aessaya
Independent treasure hunters
#33 - 2011-10-29 21:43:26 UTC
"How do you beat a superior opponent? Through superior tactics."

The answer is: it is most definitely not easy, but nowhere near impossible. It is very situational, though.

Ah, you seek meaning? Then listen to the music, not the song.
Acuchai
Tyrannis Enterprises
#34 - 2011-10-31 10:49:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Acuchai
If you engage a ship that on average is superior, winning usually depends on countering a weakness specificially well. If you take piloting skill out of the picture (which may be one of those weaknesses) parameters such as cap, speed, range, targeting and tracking are left. You will have to counter one of those parameters to such an extend that in that particular circumstance your inferior ship becomes superior in that battle.

If you fit your ship to specifically counter another ship it usually means that your ship becomes worse for unexpected encounters, but that is the price you have to pay. One variant of this tactic is to fit "bad" t1 cruisers to kill expensive t2 and faction frigates by fitting them with dual webs, small guns and neuts.

Frigates are tougher to fit, because of slot layouts and amount of slots you usually have less options. However there are a few. For instance one way would be to dual-web+2pt a frigate (such as the merlin) and engage targets that have to get close. Or you could use a tracking disrupter (optimal range) to reduce range if you can otherwise keep range as well. Kiting is an option if you have superior speed and range (usually +10k range). The Griffin for instance can be fit with 1 racial jam to perma jam a few t2 frigates. Or you could active tank a few ships with an injector and rely on a high but short burst tank.

Another point to consider is that you need to package your ship that your enemy is not expecting your "unusual" fit. However with frigates that is less of a concern, that is usually more important with t1 cruiser fts.

So to sum it up: if you fly regular fit t1 frigates against regular fit t2 frigates you will always loose. You will have to think out of the box. One place to start looking is electronic warfare, specifically ecm and tracking disrupters, dual-web and ab+2pt scrams.
Bomberlocks
Bombercorp
#35 - 2011-11-01 11:26:07 UTC
A plain vanilla 125mm AC Rifter (125mm ACs, nos, web, scram, sar, dcu, 200m plate, rigs) can out track both a Wolf and a Jaguar and if you can get under its guns you have a chance. It's been done.

A MWD TD Crucifier can kill an AB AF.

An MWD Arty Rifter can kill an AB AF.

etc.
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#36 - 2011-11-01 21:05:27 UTC
Jude Lloyd wrote:
[...] A merlin can tank the dps incoming from some AF's.


^^This.

And most any other T1 frig (possible exception: Scorch-lensed pulse laser Punsher, though I don't fly those, so ask someone who does), at any real range (>3-4km), whilst using his rockets to project a large part of his DPS right to their max range, especially if/when you're webbed, and then that beastly little tank will simply out-last you.

Don't underestimate the Merlin...

Ni.
Pookoko
Sigma Sagittarii Inc.
#37 - 2011-11-02 23:20:54 UTC
Wolf n jaguar maybe no- but i imagine it wont be impossible to take out blaster enyo in anything that can kite
Kush Monster
Big Tobacco
#38 - 2011-11-02 23:38:44 UTC
Tallianna Avenkarde wrote:
Kush Monster wrote:
depends on the frig... a T1 Dramiel with a competent pilot can beat nearly any t2



Pirate =/= t1



Pirate ships are T1

Tech lvl != Meta lvl

How to make mining enjoyable: An Autocannon, Faction Ammo, Your Mouth
xenodia
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2011-11-04 19:55:10 UTC
Ive seen interceptors taken down 1 on 1 by a hauler. Ive seen an assault frig take out a BC 1 v1. There is no pre-determined outcome in a 1v1.
Causalitii Eullon
Catalyst Consortium
#40 - 2011-11-04 20:08:03 UTC
Goose99 wrote:


It actually complete misses the mark. If you pop a superior ship with superior fitting and superior SP, it has nothing to do with you being good, and everything to do with the other person sucking and making a mistake. Eve is a spreadsheet combat sim game, not a twitch shooter. There's no manual control. Assuming the other party is minimally competent and not make mistakes, the spreadsheet stats will show and there's nothing you can do no matter how "good" you are.



You sir are an idiot
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