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Woolwich Barracks attack, London

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silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#41 - 2013-05-23 20:34:12 UTC
Kirjava wrote:
Felicity Love wrote:
Rainus Max wrote:
I
This isn't an Islam thing, its simply an over religious loony, sadly most religions have or had them.


Murder is murder.

Hang the ****** and dump his body in some very deep water.



Systematicaly illegal. It would be easier to remove the right to own a gun in America today than to repeal the ban on the death penalty in the European Union. We've been trying to deport a chap called Abu Qatata for years, but to no avail because we have defined the EU as so above the rest of the world morally that we cannot deport scum like him to Jordan because they could use the death penalty.

Which is hypocritical in the extrme. Life in a cage? That's slow execution by prolonged torture.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

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Rainus Max
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#42 - 2013-05-23 20:34:31 UTC
Felicity Love wrote:
Rainus Max wrote:
This isn't an Islam thing, its simply an over religious loony, sadly most religions have or had them.


Murder is murder.

Hang the ****** and dump his body in some very deep water.


I have to disagree - Execution is not the way of the UK, I would much rather see them rot in a a permanently locked cell in some deep damp dungeon for the rest of their lives.
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#43 - 2013-05-23 20:38:00 UTC
Rainus Max wrote:
Felicity Love wrote:
Rainus Max wrote:
This isn't an Islam thing, its simply an over religious loony, sadly most religions have or had them.


Murder is murder.

Hang the ****** and dump his body in some very deep water.


I have to disagree - Execution is not the way of the UK, I would much rather see them rot in a a permanently locked cell in some deep damp dungeon for the rest of their lives.

Which pretty neatly matches one of my definitions of death by torture. Slow torture. If you're never going to release him, it would be more humane to just kill him. Institutionalized torture such as life imprisonment dehumanizes both the prisoner and those who must guard him.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#44 - 2013-05-23 20:38:09 UTC
silens vesica wrote:

Which is hypocritical in the extrme. Life in a cage? That's slow execution by prolonged torture.

No objections your honour.

Who ever said that liberalism didn't have a sadistic streak a mile wide...

[center]Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007. /人◕‿‿◕人\ Unban Saede![/center]
Rainus Max
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#45 - 2013-05-23 20:54:19 UTC
silens vesica wrote:
Rainus Max wrote:
Felicity Love wrote:
Rainus Max wrote:
This isn't an Islam thing, its simply an over religious loony, sadly most religions have or had them.


Murder is murder.

Hang the ****** and dump his body in some very deep water.


I have to disagree - Execution is not the way of the UK, I would much rather see them rot in a a permanently locked cell in some deep damp dungeon for the rest of their lives.

Which pretty neatly matches one of my definitions of death by torture. Slow torture. If you're never going to release him, it would be more humane to just kill him. Institutionalized torture such as life imprisonment dehumanizes both the prisoner and those who must guard him.


There is small part of me that agrees with executing them but that's not our way, we willingly gave up execution decades ago and I agree with that choice. To be honest I'm not overly bothered by how prison affects them, as long as we ensure their basic* human rights are met and we do everything we can to look after those guards that have to watch over them. Those two loons made their choices in life and they must now live with the consequences.

*and I mean absolutely basic human rights, no internet etc
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#46 - 2013-05-23 21:18:26 UTC
Rainus Max wrote:
silens vesica wrote:
Rainus Max wrote:
Felicity Love wrote:
Rainus Max wrote:
This isn't an Islam thing, its simply an over religious loony, sadly most religions have or had them.


Murder is murder.

Hang the ****** and dump his body in some very deep water.


I have to disagree - Execution is not the way of the UK, I would much rather see them rot in a a permanently locked cell in some deep damp dungeon for the rest of their lives.

Which pretty neatly matches one of my definitions of death by torture. Slow torture. If you're never going to release him, it would be more humane to just kill him. Institutionalized torture such as life imprisonment dehumanizes both the prisoner and those who must guard him.


There is small part of me that agrees with executing them but that's not our way, we willingly gave up execution decades ago and I agree with that choice. To be honest I'm not overly bothered by how prison affects them, as long as we ensure their basic* human rights are met and we do everything we can to look after those guards that have to watch over them. Those two loons made their choices in life and they must now live with the consequences.

*and I mean absolutely basic human rights, no internet etc

Basic human rights? They're in a CAGE. Like an animal. Surrounded by other humans reduced to animals. No hope for the future. No opportunity to better themselves in any realistic and meaningful way. Surrounded by guards who are contemptuous and afraid of them; the effects of prolonged confinement are well documented.

And you're sentencing the guards to proximity to what amounts to human anuimals - Guards are at risk daily from the things that these animals might do - animals who have nothing to lose; after all, what are you going to do to the prisoner? Sentece him to life in prison? Put him in solitary..?! That's orders of magnitude more cruel!

So - decades of dehumanizing confinement... NOT exactly my idea of a moral solution. It's a cowards way of execution, with institutionallized cruelty along the way. A society can be judged by how it treats its prisoners. Yours just came up short of its lofty goals.*



*Yes, I know - Mine's not much to brag about either. But at least I *know* we're cruel. And sometimes, we manage to put a few of the poor bastards out of everyone's misery.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
Rainus Max
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#47 - 2013-05-23 21:54:42 UTC
silens vesica wrote:
Basic human rights? They're in a CAGE. Like an animal. Surrounded by other humans reduced to animals. No hope for the future. No opportunity to better themselves in any realistic and meaningful way. Surrounded by guards who are contemptuous and afraid of them; the effects of prolonged confinement are well documented.

And you're sentencing the guards to proximity to what amounts to human anuimals - Guards are at risk daily from the things that these animals might do - animals who have nothing to lose; after all, what are you going to do to the prisoner? Sentece him to life in prison? Put him in solitary..?! That's orders of magnitude more cruel!

So - decades of dehumanizing confinement... NOT exactly my idea of a moral solution. It's a cowards way of execution, with institutionallized cruelty along the way. A society can be judged by how it treats its prisoners. Yours just came up short of its lofty goals.*



*Yes, I know - Mine's not much to brag about either. But at least I *know* we're cruel. And sometimes, we manage to put a few of the poor bastards out of everyone's misery.


I would rather my society imprisons its criminals than just executes them, it's not a perfect solution I grant and being British there is very little I would change. But I wouldn't trust those men to be let out into public life in the future so the point of them 'bettering themselves' doesn't really mean anything to me.
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#48 - 2013-05-23 22:03:34 UTC
Watching Question Time at the moment, based out of Belfast this week but it this will be a good forum to debate what's happened.

[center]Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007. /人◕‿‿◕人\ Unban Saede![/center]
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#49 - 2013-05-23 22:17:27 UTC
Rainus Max wrote:
silens vesica wrote:
Basic human rights? They're in a CAGE. Like an animal. Surrounded by other humans reduced to animals. No hope for the future. No opportunity to better themselves in any realistic and meaningful way. Surrounded by guards who are contemptuous and afraid of them; the effects of prolonged confinement are well documented.

And you're sentencing the guards to proximity to what amounts to human anuimals - Guards are at risk daily from the things that these animals might do - animals who have nothing to lose; after all, what are you going to do to the prisoner? Sentece him to life in prison? Put him in solitary..?! That's orders of magnitude more cruel!

So - decades of dehumanizing confinement... NOT exactly my idea of a moral solution. It's a cowards way of execution, with institutionallized cruelty along the way. A society can be judged by how it treats its prisoners. Yours just came up short of its lofty goals.*



*Yes, I know - Mine's not much to brag about either. But at least I *know* we're cruel. And sometimes, we manage to put a few of the poor bastards out of everyone's misery.


I would rather my society imprisons its criminals than just executes them, it's not a perfect solution I grant and being British there is very little I would change. But I wouldn't trust those men to be let out into public life in the future so the point of them 'bettering themselves' doesn't really mean anything to me.

Yeah, I understand that you feel that way. I'm just having a hard time squaring that with 'civilization.' It's a bloody vicious thing to do to a fellow human being.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
Rainus Max
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#50 - 2013-05-23 22:21:16 UTC
silens vesica wrote:
Rainus Max wrote:
silens vesica wrote:
Basic human rights? They're in a CAGE. Like an animal. Surrounded by other humans reduced to animals. No hope for the future. No opportunity to better themselves in any realistic and meaningful way. Surrounded by guards who are contemptuous and afraid of them; the effects of prolonged confinement are well documented.

And you're sentencing the guards to proximity to what amounts to human anuimals - Guards are at risk daily from the things that these animals might do - animals who have nothing to lose; after all, what are you going to do to the prisoner? Sentece him to life in prison? Put him in solitary..?! That's orders of magnitude more cruel!

So - decades of dehumanizing confinement... NOT exactly my idea of a moral solution. It's a cowards way of execution, with institutionallized cruelty along the way. A society can be judged by how it treats its prisoners. Yours just came up short of its lofty goals.*



*Yes, I know - Mine's not much to brag about either. But at least I *know* we're cruel. And sometimes, we manage to put a few of the poor bastards out of everyone's misery.


I would rather my society imprisons its criminals than just executes them, it's not a perfect solution I grant and being British there is very little I would change. But I wouldn't trust those men to be let out into public life in the future so the point of them 'bettering themselves' doesn't really mean anything to me.

Yeah, I understand that you feel that way. I'm just having a hard time squaring that with 'civilization.' It's a bloody vicious thing to do to a fellow human being.


That is fair enough, I feel the same about execution.
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#51 - 2013-05-23 22:31:19 UTC
Very well.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

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Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#52 - 2013-05-23 22:33:37 UTC
I suppose a perspective is in the national outlook on the afterlife. In Europe, you die, you are wormfood, whereas in the America's the notion of a continuation after death holds sway. In China they are just being efficient with resources though What?

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silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#53 - 2013-05-23 22:48:51 UTC
Kirjava wrote:
I suppose a perspective is in the national outlook on the afterlife. In Europe, you die, you are wormfood, whereas in the America's the notion of a continuation after death holds sway. In China they are just being efficient with resources though What?

Whilst I *am* religious, I'm not particualry fanatic about it. On the other hand, I beilieve life in a cage with no hope of anything but more of the same, surrounded by fellow animals, watched over guards that have been reduced by their situation to little better than the animals they guard.... What's left? Decades of despair and dehumanization and brutality - Emotional, if not physical. And you can bet the physical will be there too. Solitary confinement is worse - People go insane in solitary quite readily. What kind of human sentences another to insanity?

Anyway, lifelong captivity is a working definition of hell. It's a vindictive torture, and slow execution by a society that wants to pretend it has no blood on its hands, whilst actually scrubbing its hands in pain and debasement all the while self-righteously pretending to be virtuous. You're warehousing lumps of living flesh that no longer have any purpose, save to eat, crap, and stare at the bars. You're turning human beings into veal.

Don't take that too personally - My society is debasing itself in the same manner quite rapidly.


Worm food, or not wormfood, I don't care which is the reality.
So - If I were to be locked away forever, without any chance of escape - do me a favor and spend half a Euro on a bullet. I'll thank you for it.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#54 - 2013-05-23 23:14:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
The problems with the death penalty in the UK are A: as long as we're a signee of the European Convention on Human Rights we're expressly forbidden to use it, and B: at least one of the people executed by the state in the latter half of the 20th century has since had his conviction quashed by the courts (Derek Bentley, who due to head injuries sustained during WW2 as a child, had a mental age of 10 when he was executed).

There's been many criminals since who no doubt would have been executed under our old laws, and a percentage of the general public would like to see them reinstated for certain offences, particularly those involving multiple murders, murder of a crown employee and sexual offences involving children. As far as I know we still have a working gallows that was regularly tested into the 90's, although our last hangman, Albert Pierrepoint, died in '92. We don't do bullets, you can reuse a rope and it's more environmentally friendly.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#55 - 2013-05-24 02:22:21 UTC
Well, you've touched on my main problem with executions, too - False conviction or over-zealous sentencing.

Where there is any possibility that the conviction is false, or could be overturned, then there's hope. Where there's hope, there's a reason to live, and something other than despair. Hope can keep a human human, and if I were to find myself in *that* situation, I would not willingly consent to death.

But the Ted Bundys, the Tim McVeighs, the Jeff Dahmers, the J.A.M.s of the world? There's no chance of being wrong, there's no chance of being released, there's no hope. Death is more humane and merciful.



My objections to Life Without Parole give me a case of heartburn with the EU, too. Actually, one of the bigger cases of heartburn - Any institution so willfully cruel and hypocritical has some serious flaws at its heart.

I understand that many people haven't sat down and thought about it too much - But have you ever *seen* veal when it's still a living, breathing being? The thought of turning humans into that, or some approximation thereof, is beyond reprehensible.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
Hrothgar Nilsson
#56 - 2013-05-24 12:27:48 UTC
I'm kind of wondering why nobody from the base responded. I don't think they could have reacted in time to prevent the murder, but they could have subdued the murderers. Rigby was murdered no more than 30 feet from the barracks building, and the two murderers hung around the spot for 13 minutes with knives in hand.

I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe...

Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...
Marcus Gord
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#57 - 2013-05-24 12:44:26 UTC
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
I'm kind of wondering why nobody from the base responded. I don't think they could have reacted in time to prevent the murder, but they could have subdued the murderers. Rigby was murdered no more than 30 feet from the barracks building, and the two murderers hung around the spot for 13 minutes with knives in hand.


In this country, probably something to do with health and safety, or offending someone.....

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silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#58 - 2013-05-24 15:05:11 UTC
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
I'm kind of wondering why nobody from the base responded. I don't think they could have reacted in time to prevent the murder, but they could have subdued the murderers. Rigby was murdered no more than 30 feet from the barracks building, and the two murderers hung around the spot for 13 minutes with knives in hand.
You'd need to ask a couple questions before you get to the answer:

~ Who was around? From the vid I saw, I didn't *see* any other soldiers, and very few other people, either.
~ How much of a scuffle was there? A 'blitz'* attack could've had him incapacitated with the very first strike - that can be shocklingly quiet.
~ How long did it take for anyone to actually realize what was going down? In a quick scuffle, who is doing what, to whom, isn't alway obvious - even when you're looking right at it. No one *expects* to see cold-blooded murder in front of their eyes.


I'm actually fairly impressed that armed officers got there in time to confront the killers. In the US, pretty much every officer is armed to some degree - In the UK, I understand that it's quite different.



*(Taking down a fit, health young male, a blitz would have been their best bet. Even unarmed, you can usually defend yourself from knives if you're passibly fit and aware that the attack is coming - Certainly long enough to call out for help.)

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
Hrothgar Nilsson
#59 - 2013-05-24 17:32:12 UTC
I'm not sure how that specific military installation was run, or military installations are run in general in the UK...

It seems Woolwich is more comparable to say Ft Myer in Arlington, VA, as opposed to a fort like Benning, but I couldn't imagine a stabbing murder could take place a 5 second jog from soldiers' dormitories at Ft Myer with the murderers pacing back and forth in front of it for a full 13 minutes with bloody knives in hand while screaming, and that nobody at Myer would be the least bit aware.

Or that an MP wouldn't have noticed two suspicious looking individuals loitering around while they were waiting for someone to murder in the first place, and completely not noticed the screaming/bloody knife and machete waving.

I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe...

Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...
Eurydia Vespasian
Storm Hunters
#60 - 2013-05-24 18:13:33 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
There's been many criminals since who no doubt would have been executed under our old laws, and a percentage of the general public would like to see them reinstated for certain offences, particularly those involving multiple murders, murder of a crown employee and sexual offences involving children. As far as I know we still have a working gallows that was regularly tested into the 90's, although our last hangman, Albert Pierrepoint, died in '92. We don't do bullets, you can reuse a rope and it's more environmentally friendly.



lol i was going to say, yeah.

i thought the UK used to be quite good and routine at whacking "belligerent undesirables" (to use a eve term lol) a quick drop and a sudden stop, old boy. and in time for tea, too. i wasn't aware that the laws had ever changed.