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[Proposal] Skill Point Reset

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Kinurra
Doomheim
#21 - 2013-05-24 10:56:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Kinurra
Tippia wrote:
It removes the point of having skills to begin with.
It removes the point of having attributes.
It removes attribute implants from the game.
It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups.
It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character.
It removes planning and choice and consequences.
It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas.
It kills character trading.
It massively boosts older characters over new ones.
It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do.


I LOL'd at the character trading. Really? It's a requirement to keep that market alive and well? I don't think game decisions need to be made based on someone wanting to ensure they get 20 billion isk when selling their toon. But noobs will always be willing to buy vet toons, so no, the market will not die.

Redistribution doesn't ensure 'cookie cutter' anything. Everyone will make their own choices in what skills to train for based on their experiences and how they want to play the game. Doctrines in 00 change so fast now that you're practically expected to fly all 4 races competently, with support skills to match. And the math says that even a 150m sp toon who redistributes won't even come close to having his/her fighting skills maxed at 5. So attributes and implants will still matter.

5 year vets will always have the advantage over 2 year vets. But smart 2 year vets beat dumb 5 year noobs every time. Skill points mater in eve, but they are not the end all be all you make them out to be.

Most of the rest of what you said are purely grasping at straws. I don't think a redistribution every few years changes any consequences. Hell, choosing to redistribute is a consequence...you'll be stuck with the result for quite a long time.
Kinurra
Doomheim
#22 - 2013-05-24 11:06:12 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
sabre906 wrote:


What is this "consequence" that you speak of?

On that subject, we should have a max SP cap, so that skill choices can have consequences.Cool


The consequence of poorly chosen skill queues is having sp you don't really want.

The nice thing is that, unlike other mmos, you are not bound to a character type. You want different skills? Train them now!

m



I can use the same argument for the attributes pre-remap. "Having high charisma doesn't stop you from training ship skills, and you still get the benefit of high charisma for leadership and social skills!"

Attribute remaps are widely accepted and appreciated. They were a good addition that goes against the "Eve has consequences mantra"

Skill resets would be a good addition too.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#23 - 2013-05-24 14:03:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Kinurra wrote:
Tippia wrote:
It removes the point of having skills to begin with.
It removes the point of having attributes.
It removes attribute implants from the game.
It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups.
It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character.
It removes planning and choice and consequences.
It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas.
It kills character trading.
It massively boosts older characters over new ones.
It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do.


I LOL'd at the character trading. Really? It's a requirement to keep that market alive and well? I don't think game decisions need to be made based on someone wanting to ensure they get 20 billion isk when selling their toon. But noobs will always be willing to buy vet toons, so no, the market will not die.

Redistribution doesn't ensure 'cookie cutter' anything. Everyone will make their own choices in what skills to train for based on their experiences and how they want to play the game. Doctrines in 00 change so fast now that you're practically expected to fly all 4 races competently, with support skills to match. And the math says that even a 150m sp toon who redistributes won't even come close to having his/her fighting skills maxed at 5. So attributes and implants will still matter.

5 year vets will always have the advantage over 2 year vets. But smart 2 year vets beat dumb 5 year noobs every time. Skill points mater in eve, but they are not the end all be all you make them out to be.

Most of the rest of what you said are purely grasping at straws. I don't think a redistribution every few years changes any consequences. Hell, choosing to redistribute is a consequence...you'll be stuck with the result for quite a long time.
The fact that you lol'd, show how ignorant you are at the impact of such a change.
How the character was trained, becomes irrelevant. It's now all about the SP only. In other words, it kills character trading. Are you suggesting that certain impacts with a change, should simply be ignored? That if you don't care, they don't matter? Sorry but no.

People will always head to FOTM and this idea promotes just that. Also with this I wouldn't even need to remap or worry about those +5s. I simply set for Perc and Will and train titans for the rest of my life. Then simply move the SP wherever I want. Thus, attributes no longer matter in any way whatsoever, and with attributes gone, the implants become meaningless too. You might as well just give everyone a flat 2700 SP/h regardless of what they train.

I agree that skill points do not matter as much, but that's the beauty of current system. You're asking to change that to make them more important and therefore wrecking the whole system. This means us old vets have it way too easy, being able to change our high SP at a whim. Against a new guy and his far lower SP. It's irrelevant regarding them fixing supposed errors they made, they don't have the amount of SP I do. I'm now able to render all their choices meaningless. There is no field they can now specialise in, in order to compete.

You suggested once per year, but now seem to be back tracking to only every few. Catching up doesn't exist at the moment, but this change introduces it. Simply because this change makes it about how much SP you have, not where you have that SP. This change would cripple new players and be a massive boon to us old ones.

You have yet to show any legitimate reason for this change. It doesn't solve anything, it simply screws the current system. As Tippia also said the following, which highlights why this idea isn't required.

Tippia wrote:
Respeccing exists in xp/level/class-based games to solve the problem that, as you level up, you pick more and more deeply nested skills from a small skill tree to build something that works together as a unit. If at any point, you mess up or if a skill is changed, that unity is broken. Your class also restricts what skill tree you have at your disposal so that's really just a set of root nodes for the whole tree. EVE doesn't work like that. At all. EVE has no levels and no classes, and no XP. You are not restricted to one narrow set of skills and the skill tree is not deeply nested to give you something new for each level. As a result, if you want to do something else or if you want to tweak things, you can just go and train it. It won't even take that long. The problem you are suggesting doesn't exist because the EVE skill system doesn't work in a way that creates such problems; the solution is already built into the system.


As far as skill deletion is concerned, I'm all for it. But at the cost of the SP in that skill as well as a Plex. Again, this should be about consequences.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#24 - 2013-05-24 16:40:33 UTC

Mag's & Tippia pretty much nailed it!

Lets look at your reasons more closesly:

Quote:
The Problem:

You enter the game and aren't sure what to train. You decide mining sounds ridiculously awesome, and 2.5 million skill points later decide mining is boring and a waste of time. So you start training PvP and really like it - never touching a mining barge or laser again. But those skill points just sit there, worthless and taking up space.

Over the years as your game play experience changes and you entertain the idea of venturing into other professions, more and more wasted skillpoints stack up.


Having skillpoints you don't currently utilize is NOT a problem. This whole notion is flawed. And frankly, the cost of exploring different areas of game play is taking the time to skill into it.
Want to build... Train Production Efficiency, Industry, etc..
Want to mine... Train Mining & Exhumers, etc....
Want to explore... Train Astronometrics & scanning skills...
Want to PvP... Train skills for the ship/race you want to try.
Tired of any of these professions, train into a new one!

Please, elaborate on the "problem" that having access to these old professions delivers. I'll cut off the two most obvious replies:
  • Clone costs -- Guess what... this isn't a problem with having the SP, this is an issue with the clone upgrade system. Try again!
  • Character sheet -- Afraid you'll be rejected from a corp because they want a 15m SP industrialist rather than a 15m SP PvPer. Allowing corps to identify your character history (based on SP chart, based on Kill history, based on Corp history) is extremely important for this game in which bringing people into your corp. They need to judge whether you can fly the ships they want (and this involves more than simply having the SP to do so), they need to judge what contributions you have previously had, and they do this to see if you fit before entrusting you with corp membership (which opens up some vulnerabilities to them).

    • So, with those two out of the way, again:
    Please, elaborate on the "problem" that having tons and tons of skillpoints which you dont currently utilize!!!!


    Quote:
    Justification for implementing this change:

    1) Players really should be given the opportunity to correct mistakes and clean up their characters
    2) Like the philosophy behind Plex or Tags-for-sec, the time has already been invested and skill points already earned.
    3) Limiting to 1 reset per year (or even 2 or 3 years) like Attribute resets prevents this from being abused
    4) I'd pay a plex (now, if that's not motivation!....)


    None of these are justifications....
    1.) You have the opportunity to "correct your skillset" simply by training the skills you currently want. Old skills do not harm you, nor do they need "cleaning up". If you are that OCD, I have no problems with allowing you to simply delete skills (as long as they aren't prereq skills in a tree you've trained).

    2.) This is nothing like Plex, nor like Tags-for-sec. And neither of those programs lend "justification" to SP redistribution.

    3.) Limiting this would help prevent abuse, but if you really need to limit it to once every 1-3 years, perhaps its not something that should be implemented. Also, This isn't a "justification".

    4.) It would increase plex demand... How nice for CCP. While this is motivation, it is not justification!


    Quote:
    Sidebar:

    This also goes hand-in-hand with skill deletion. Most players have at least a few skills that they plugged into their head, only to regret it later and have no way to delete them. Those of us with OCD that hate seeing a lot of level 0,1, or 2 skills mixed in with level 4's and 5's really go nuts over not being able to delete them. I'd like this feature too.


    If you want to delete a skill from your head, I completely don't give a ****... I wouldn't even require you to pay a plex for that service, but I would recommend that you can only delete one skill every 48 hours as a anti-hack safety precaution (even then, imagine the havoc if someone's account gets hacked an suddenly Titan V is deleted!)
    De'Veldrin
    Republic University
    Minmatar Republic
    #25 - 2013-05-24 17:23:23 UTC
    Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

    If you want to delete a skill from your head, I completely don't give a ****... I wouldn't even require you to pay a plex for that service, but I would recommend that you can only delete one skill every 48 hours as a anti-hack safety precaution (even then, imagine the havoc if someone's account gets hacked an suddenly Titan V is deleted!)


    Not to derail the thread, but until we have two factor authentication for Eve, I will always vote no for skill deletion. Even after we have it, I fail to see the necessity of spending limited developer resources on it when there are much more pressing issues in the game to be fixed.

    On the topic of the OP:

    No. You haven't yet come up with a pressing reason WHY this is needed under the current system, nor a way to do it that doesn't invoke Malcanis' Law. And if you really have to limit it to once every three years or so, there's no point in it. If I train mining for a year, and then decide i hate it, and have to wait two more years to respec those points - well hell, I can be flying a titan in that amount of time, so what's the ******* point of the respec system?

    De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
    Kinurra
    Doomheim
    #26 - 2013-05-24 21:25:34 UTC
    ^^ if someone hacked your account they could just biomass your toon anyways so a timer wouldn't do much. Use a complex password with a variety of caps, numbers, and special characters and your account will be safe.

    I wouldn't mind deleting skills from my head and losing those skillpoints all together. That would be progress
    Varius Xeral
    Doomheim
    #27 - 2013-05-24 23:11:28 UTC
    Moot discussion, it'll never happen....though that probably applies to 99% of this forum section.

    Dohohohohohohoho

    Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
    Chitsa Jason
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #28 - 2013-05-27 01:44:08 UTC
    This would just give advantage to veteran players over new players. Nay

    Burn the land and boil the sea You can't take the sky from me
    Frostys Virpio
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #29 - 2013-05-27 19:45:35 UTC
    Bad idea. The only people I could potentially accept getting something close to that are genuine newbies who made an honest misstake in what they trained because they didn't know better and the amount of time invested would be so low it would not matter anyway.

    In short : No.
    Uronksur Suth
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #30 - 2013-05-31 00:30:32 UTC
    You know what this whole dilemma in which we spend a lot of time studying and training in a certain area, like mining, only to do a career change and learn a whole bunch of new things and never apply our acquired skills in mining ever again reminds me of? Reality.

    It makes no sense that we can just magically redistribute our study (we are buying books, remember?) and effort to learn how to say, efficiently mine ice into how to operate a freighter.
    Jint Hikaru
    OffWorld Exploration Inc
    #31 - 2013-05-31 11:39:44 UTC
    Kinurra wrote:
  • The Problem:

    • You enter the game and aren't sure what to train. You decide mining sounds ridiculously awesome, and 2.5 million skill points later decide mining is boring and a waste of time. So you start training PvP and really like it - never touching a mining barge or laser again. But those skill points just sit there, worthless and taking up space.



    But, from what you are saying, you used those mining skills during the time it took you to skill up those 2.5million SPs.
    You flew mining ships
    You reaped the rewards of rock chewing
    Maybe you even reprocessed ore with less wastage (I forget if this is a skill or not)

    So now you want to turn these skills, (which you have benefited from), into a new profession.... Instantly.

    Seriously, NO!

    Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
    Dreus D'arco
    Imperial Shipment
    Amarr Empire
    #32 - 2013-06-01 10:34:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Dreus D'arco
    Well if they would allow for skill respecialization it would atleast need serious consequences.

    For example if you would like to unlearn skill like Mining Barge you would be refunded only 50% (or even less) of the skill points you spent learning on it.

    This would be only way i would MAYBE allow it.
    Malcanis
    Vanishing Point.
    The Initiative.
    #33 - 2013-06-03 13:29:22 UTC
    Kinurra wrote:
    I don't care that others have raised this issue before


    OK, then we don't care to waste time making the same explainations all over again because you think you're a special snowflake.

    If you want us to put any time into considering your ideas, then you should at minimum put similar effort into making sure that they haven't already been looked at, and into addressing objections raised at that time.

    If you can't be bothered to do that, why should we be bothered to spend any time on self-serving skillpoint reset proposal #218?

    (Answer: we won't)

    "Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

    Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
    Tjorven Einherjar Valkyrja
    Insight n Foresight
    #34 - 2013-07-22 01:48:12 UTC
    Nay on your idea also.

    But because I understand your frustration as I am also a bit OCD.

    Then as this is not a fix but an idea to soothe your eyes; do what I do and finish the skills you started to train.
    Makes my Character Skill Sheet look good. If that's too much to handle well I'd also say HTFU because you shoulda' planned your direction better Big smile

    Makin' Isk is my business

    ★★★ 3rd Party & Location Services★★★ ~ Tjorven Einherjar Valkyrja ~ To do business please enter this Channel: INF 3rd Party
    Kyt Thrace
    Lightspeed Enterprises
    Goonswarm Federation
    #35 - 2013-07-23 13:22:32 UTC
    PLEX for Removal of Unwanted Skills!!!

    You do not get reimbursed for skill points or skill books.

    R.I.P. Vile Rat
    samualvimes
    Brothers At Arms
    #36 - 2013-08-07 21:59:31 UTC
    The only thing I could think of where I would be ok with this is PLEX for skill removal.

    not reimbursement or any of that abuseable rubbish.

    straight off Aurum for skillpoints gone from your sheet.

    Either from the point of view of the OCD people out there who no longer want mining foreman 3 or from PvPers who want to bring their clone costs down.

    Anything else NO NO NO!

    I HAVE SPOKEN!

    If you've never tried PvP in EvE it's quite possible you've missed out on one of the greatest rushes available in modern gaming.
    Infinity Ziona
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #37 - 2013-08-08 17:29:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
    Dreus D'arco wrote:
    Well if they would allow for skill respecialization it would atleast need serious consequences.

    For example if you would like to unlearn skill like Mining Barge you would be refunded only 50% (or even less) of the skill points you spent learning on it.

    This would be only way i would MAYBE allow it.

    Its quite easy to get around the gaming the system - A skill point remap refunds only points on your base start up stats. That means if you were training for a year with +5's and say you had 25 perception 24 willpower you would be refunded the years worth of skill points based on your base stats, completely ignoring the +5's and the attributes points that can be allocated.

    Sure you might end up losing 50% or more of the skill-points but who cares. I would only support this reallocation though when CCP makes very large changes to the game that make that skill you trained for useless.

    And please, don't tell me its not useless, I haven't fired a torpedo or missile since the missile nerf and never plan to. That' s what 7 years? I specialize and never do flavor of the month. Same as the shield compensation skills I have all trained up now...

    I could go on for a while, lots of wasted skill points that will never have a use.

    Also I agree there should be consequences for your choices, however those consequences should not extend to CCP's unforeseen and arbitrary changes to core game mechanics.

    CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

    Kaalrus pwned..... :)
    Leto Thule
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #38 - 2013-08-12 15:24:44 UTC
    Mallak Azaria wrote:
    There is already a solution to this. Self-destruct an alpha clone over & over until you've lost the desired skills.


    Lmao...

    Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment
    Jint Hikaru
    OffWorld Exploration Inc
    #39 - 2013-08-14 10:43:01 UTC
    Kinurra wrote:
    ^^ if someone hacked your account they could just biomass your toon anyways so a timer wouldn't do much. Use a complex password with a variety of caps, numbers, and special characters and your account will be safe.

    I wouldn't mind deleting skills from my head and losing those skillpoints all together. That would be progress


    I believe there is a 24 hour timer on Biomass for this exact reason.

    Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
    TheBlueMonkey
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #40 - 2013-08-14 13:26:19 UTC
    New FOTM pops up, I buy a char from the character bizarre, I remap it's skills for FOTM, I lol all over your face.

    FOTM gets nerfed, I sell char with FOTM skills, I buy a new char from the bizarre, I remap it for the new FOTM, lol all over your face again.

    ok, so you limit it to 1 remap per account per year, I have 12 accounts (most are inactive), I switch to a monthly sub and rotate through these accounts.


    You've just trashed eve and turned it into some ****** WoW "I R GOTTA MAX SKILL FOR RAID!!!" game. Well done.