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EVE ships sub light speed and star/planet gravity wells
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Desuke Aramaki
Perkone
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-05-18 04:19:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Desuke Aramaki
First I want to excuse myself for my bad enghlish since its not my primary language.

Onto the subject now. Everybody knows that EVE ships are slow in sub light situations (a few hundred of meters per second at best without afterburners or microwarpdrives). For example, to leave planet Earth, an escape velocity of 11.2 km/s (approx. 40,320 km/h, or 25,000 mph) is required; however, a speed of 42.1 km/s is required to escape the Sun's gravity. My question is the following : How EVE ships can approach/orbit a planet/star gravity well and escape it with such low speeds ? Some kind of Star Wars repulsorlift technology maybe ? I need to understand please.
Faulx
Brother Fox Corp
#2 - 2013-05-18 12:22:38 UTC
I second the motion.
Faulx
Brother Fox Corp
#3 - 2013-05-18 16:13:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Faulx
Alright, here's the only source I could find referencing "4-dimensional drag"... "pulling ships to a halt". I can't seem to find a more original reference to this anywhere else in the lore. Can anyone else?

*We'll just suspend for a moment that "halt" has no meaning in relativistic physics.

**This is beginning to sound like a task for Project Clockwork.
Tavin Aikisen
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#4 - 2013-05-19 01:04:25 UTC
A little imagination and a little relativity is how I've always viewed it. The speeds aren't very specific. They provide a magnitude but we don't really see any other vectors. Are those speeds relative to our orbits of planets or are they relative to the motion of the sun? Or perhaps they are just an absolute speed and something in our ships prevents us from falling towards planets or other objects?

"Remember this. Trust your eyes, you will kill each other. Trust your veins, you can all go home."

-Cold Wind
Eija-Riitta Veitonen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5 - 2013-05-19 22:24:11 UTC
Most likely "halt" is considered as "0 velocity vector" in regards to the strongest gravity well in ship's vicinity.
Desuke Aramaki
Perkone
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-05-20 00:34:27 UTC
Eija-Riitta Veitonen wrote:
Most likely "halt" is considered as "0 velocity vector" in regards to the strongest gravity well in ship's vicinity.


I kinda like that explanation. It would certainly make EVE ships much faster than they appear on screen during the gameplay.
Untanas Volmyr
Perkone
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-05-23 18:35:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Untanas Volmyr
I like to think a ships navigation simply locks itself to the nearest object and maintains its position. So although it says you are stopped. You and the structure your navigation uses are used as a base 0 to make the math work. Theoretically of course. So you would infact be moving in orbit with your locked structure. And an orbital velocity of other structures. Well that would just make it that much more complicated. I guess. Solar 2 is a fun little game that factors in gravitational relations.

Murphy's Technology Law - If your not thoroughly confused. Then you were not thoroughly informed.
Eija-Riitta Veitonen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-05-23 21:01:52 UTC
Untanas Volmyr wrote:
I like to think a ships navigation simply locks itself to the nearest object and maintains its position. So although it says you are stopped. You and the structure your navigation uses are used as a base 0 to make the math work. Theoretically of course. So you would infact be moving in orbit with your locked structure. And an orbital velocity of other structures. Well that would just make it that much more complicated. I guess. Solar 2 is a fun little game that factors in gravitational relations.

Actually Solar 2 has very simplified gravity physics. I'd really recommend Universe Sandbox if you're into this kind of stuff or just wish to learn more about gravity and astronomy in general. It also has some good in-built sims of our solar system, neighbouring stars and many many more interesting stuff.
Untanas Volmyr
Perkone
Caldari State
#9 - 2013-05-23 22:05:44 UTC
Eija-Riitta Veitonen wrote:
Untanas Volmyr wrote:
I like to think a ships navigation simply locks itself to the nearest object and maintains its position. So although it says you are stopped. You and the structure your navigation uses are used as a base 0 to make the math work. Theoretically of course. So you would infact be moving in orbit with your locked structure. And an orbital velocity of other structures. Well that would just make it that much more complicated. I guess. Solar 2 is a fun little game that factors in gravitational relations.

Actually Solar 2 has very simplified gravity physics. I'd really recommend Universe Sandbox if you're into this kind of stuff or just wish to learn more about gravity and astronomy in general. It also has some good in-built sims of our solar system, neighbouring stars and many many more interesting stuff.


Awesome. I'll have to check that out.

Murphy's Technology Law - If your not thoroughly confused. Then you were not thoroughly informed.
Desuke Aramaki
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-06-08 20:07:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Desuke Aramaki
Eija-Riitta Veitonen wrote:
Most likely "halt" is considered as "0 velocity vector" in regards to the strongest gravity well in ship's vicinity.



I just need a precision regarding your theory : so you are basically saying that an EVE ship sublight engines are still somehow working in a corona of a star even though the ship indicates full stop (0 m/s) ? I dont know if you understand me well on that one.
Eija-Riitta Veitonen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-06-10 00:24:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Eija-Riitta Veitonen
Desuke Aramaki wrote:
Eija-Riitta Veitonen wrote:
Most likely "halt" is considered as "0 velocity vector" in regards to the strongest gravity well in ship's vicinity.



I just need a precision regarding your theory : so you are basically saying that an EVE ship sublight engines are still somehow working in a corona of a star even though the ship indicates full stop (0 m/s) ? I dont know if you understand me well on that one.

Sublight engines - no, but the Warp Core is active and whatever inertial dampening system is installed is also working, hence why ship can remain motionless regarding the point-of-origin (greatest gravity well, in this case) with the engines inactive. There's obviously more than one propulsion technology present on ships, because ships do not use their main thrusters to stop and/or maneuver in space. In a proper newtonian 0G frictionless environment that is space you'd need a full set of complimentary engines to maneuver and/or decelerate the way our ships do.
Ever played Nexus: The Jupiter Incident by any chance? In my opinion it has one of the best physics for spaceships of all games i've encountered. Or watch some space sequences of Babylon 5, those also pay some great respects to newtonian physics, especially the Starfuries.
Axel Kurki
Aseyakone
#12 - 2013-06-11 10:48:04 UTC
EVE uses rocket ship physics. Ships in space have a maximum speed (<< c), and when their engines stop, they stop. Webifiers work by magic which saps engine power, therefore slowing the ship down (they are not tractor beams, they work omnidirectionally).

The traditional handwave is that there's actually subspace/aether, and warp cores interact with aether and cause drag. I don't know, perhaps webifiers increase this drag.

Practical reason is that for most people, even under heavy fly-by-wire (and actually, specially under a system where you set a target speed and the ship tries to reach that) Newtonic flight is pretty hard, leading to combat being high-speed fly-bys (except for people who know how to set a proper intercepting trajectory). As such, all the maneuvers would probably need to be heavily automated, removing the player far from the actual flying. At which points the actual mechanics don't any more mean too much, except for the minority who chooses to disengage fly-by-wire for tricks.
Eija-Riitta Veitonen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-06-11 12:30:38 UTC
Axel Kurki wrote:
EVE uses submarine physics.

FTFY

Axel Kurki wrote:
Ships in space have a maximum speed (<< c), and when their engines stop, they stop. Webifiers work by magic which saps engine power, therefore slowing the ship down (they are not tractor beams, they work omnidirectionally).

The traditional handwave is that there's actually subspace/aether, and warp cores interact with aether and cause drag. I don't know, perhaps webifiers increase this drag.

Practical reason is that for most people, even under heavy fly-by-wire (and actually, specially under a system where you set a target speed and the ship tries to reach that) Newtonic flight is pretty hard, leading to combat being high-speed fly-bys (except for people who know how to set a proper intercepting trajectory). As such, all the maneuvers would probably need to be heavily automated, removing the player far from the actual flying. At which points the actual mechanics don't any more mean too much, except for the minority who chooses to disengage fly-by-wire for tricks.

You're confusing fly-by-wire with computer-assisted flight here. Fly-by-wire is simply a different interface between pilot and the control surfaces/thrusters, an electronic one instead of the traditional actuator/hydraulics one. What's the main difference here is that FBW allows assistance of on-board computer for maneuvering up to a complete automation thereof. It still does not by definition exclude ability for the pilot to control manually (depends on implementation, mostly). Just like autopilot on modern airliners.
Untanas Volmyr
Perkone
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-06-11 23:40:47 UTC
Its still a huge issue to wrap your head around. Everything is always in motion. According to our laws of physics in our cosmic bubble. Seeing as the center of our a Milkey Way galaxy is spinning. We can assume that is were our rotational force is coming from. Yet the theory of dark matter and dark energy can over complicate the process of implementing these things into a game. Seeing as we can only observe a small part of the light spectrum. All these variables are just mind boggling. Which now makes me want to ask a new question. Has anyone seen the center of New Eden? That would be a good place to start basing the math I suppose. If our laws of physics apply.

Murphy's Technology Law - If your not thoroughly confused. Then you were not thoroughly informed.
Eija-Riitta Veitonen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#15 - 2013-06-12 07:54:27 UTC
You do not need to account for any of these to create an accurate to the newtonian physics model, as those forces affecting our ships are so miniscule you can easily disregard them at this scale. The question is: is this necessary at all?
Desuke Aramaki
Perkone
Caldari State
#16 - 2013-06-12 14:18:47 UTC
Eija-Riitta Veitonen wrote:
Desuke Aramaki wrote:
Eija-Riitta Veitonen wrote:
Most likely "halt" is considered as "0 velocity vector" in regards to the strongest gravity well in ship's vicinity.



I just need a precision regarding your theory : so you are basically saying that an EVE ship sublight engines are still somehow working in a corona of a star even though the ship indicates full stop (0 m/s) ? I dont know if you understand me well on that one.

Sublight engines - no, but the Warp Core is active and whatever inertial dampening system is installed is also working, hence why ship can remain motionless regarding the point-of-origin (greatest gravity well, in this case) with the engines inactive. There's obviously more than one propulsion technology present on ships, because ships do not use their main thrusters to stop and/or maneuver in space. In a proper newtonian 0G frictionless environment that is space you'd need a full set of complimentary engines to maneuver and/or decelerate the way our ships do.
Ever played Nexus: The Jupiter Incident by any chance? In my opinion it has one of the best physics for spaceships of all games i've encountered. Or watch some space sequences of Babylon 5, those also pay some great respects to newtonian physics, especially the Starfuries.



Nope, but I will look into it some day.