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[Corp Bookmarks] Feedback and Ideas

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CCP Tuxford
C C P
C C P Alliance
#61 - 2011-11-04 09:12:58 UTC
Jack Dant wrote:
CCP Tuxford wrote:
Having folders for corporations client side doesn't really make sense since I've heard that there are actually more than one character per corp (crazy right?). Since we're already creating a folder structure for corporation bookmarks to be stored on the DB it didn't make a lot of sense to not move your personal bookmark folders to the server as well.

This sounds great, but how will the transition go? Will all our client-side folders dissapear on patch day, or be transferred?

Transferred.

https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/CCP%20Tuxford/StatusUpdates
Liu Ellens
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2011-11-04 09:36:16 UTC
I still haven't come round to have a first-hand experience, but reading the notes I highly support to use the Communications Officers role instead of Director (!). For reasons that are hopefully clear and obvious.

Well, they oughta know what to do with them hogs out there for shure.
Potato IQ
Doomheim
#63 - 2011-11-04 11:22:09 UTC
Geldorf Drakar wrote:
You don't live in a wormhole, do you?


I like the way you say that and then type the response below it. Made me smile

Geldorf Drakar wrote:
A) In wormholes, if somebody has a probe out looking for new sigs as they appear... they are going to pick up your ship's sig on scan as soon as you decloak at that planet off D-scan, and they are going to run.


You have probes on your filter, so you know if safe to uncloak or not if you check the system. Of course, this doesn’t mean to say a cov-ops will pick you up on their D-scan if in range

Geldorf Drakar wrote:
B) Going to another system to move bookmarks would probably take several minutes anyways.


But we are arguing the 5 minute delay uncloaked or 15 minutes cloaked. Which is quicker, 5 + 2 to get to another system or 15?

Geldorf Drakar wrote:
C) The point is to prevent scouts from exploiting any weakness in the corp bookmark mechanics to allow them to do something they otherwise couldnt, like broadcasting a location as a bookmark to provide a fleet warpin without ever having had to move their ship. If they warp out and decloak somewhere else to move bookmarks to corp, they might as well have just warped back to the bookmark and provided a warpin, without having to decloak.


For multiple locations, the current method exists by having to get back to fleet in another system to drop BM’s. This risk of returning and either getting popped or showing your hand is being removed, albeit with a time delay

Geldorf Drakar wrote:
Yea, you can get around the time delay by decloaking somewhere else, and you can get around it by warping off and then warping back to the bookmark you made without decloaking. That's not the issue. The issue is keeping somebody from creating a corp bookmark without having to put some effort and risk into their action. Preventing them from adding to corp bookmarks while cloaked forces them to decloak somewhere, or warp off and back in, risking getting caught by probes or D-Scan, or losing sight of the target and having the target warp off while they are absent, respectively, thus risking something in the endevour.

A large delay and/or a cloak status based limitation prevents people from using corp bookmarks like on demand insta-warpins to remote targets.


As said, as opposed to having to get back to the fleet, likely through the hole or holes you came in, adding far greater risk than an off D-scan de-cloak. What if you’ve just gone through a chain of WH’s which were inhabited. No need to run the gauntlet back through these WH’s to get the route to fleet. Free and easy in just 15 minutes or less
Slaktoid
Perkone
Caldari State
#64 - 2011-11-04 11:35:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Slaktoid
Initial thoughts is that 5 minutes would be OP. I mean even Joe Blow can warp cloaked to a site, BM a wreck and provide fleetwarpin. 5 minutes is not alot of time when you've just triggered a couple of Sleeper Capwaves. I would like to test this in practice on a day-to-day basis for a couple of months. All I ask is that CCP Tuxford doesn't close the door on us completely on this issue, and that we can have a chat about rebalancing some time in the future if it's needed.

The last thing I wanna see is that we diminish the scout metagame in any way. That we make people lazy. I feel that the corp should need to put the work in before reaping the rewards. All I really want to see are bookmarks for wh-chains and ie. jumpbridges. We want to do away with the BM can on the POS and the endless BM contracts in K-Space stations, nothing more really.

Also curious about the BMs on overview. Is this something we could be looking at in the future?

Forgot to add: Big Thank you to Two Step for pushing this forward, and CCP Tuxford for actually doing it. For many of us WH Dwellers this will probably be the most significant patch since Apocrypha. Good work!
Potato IQ
Doomheim
#65 - 2011-11-04 11:54:17 UTC
The corp folder is attached by the CEO/Directors to a system or x limited number of systems. Can only move a BM from private to corp folder when in one of the designated systems and is instant. Role restricted amount of additional system additions for ops

Each corp folder is automatically updated and merged into an Alliance folder

The missing issue is transferring private BM without the need of a can. An uncloaked instant in-system fleet transmit folder feature thing?
Razin
The Scope
#66 - 2011-11-04 15:21:31 UTC
CCP Tuxford wrote:

Having folders for corporations client side doesn't really make sense since I've heard that there are actually more than one character per corp (crazy right?). Since we're already creating a folder structure for corporation bookmarks to be stored on the DB it didn't make a lot of sense to not move your personal bookmark folders to the server as well.

This just keeps getting better and better!
Big smile
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#67 - 2011-11-04 16:58:01 UTC
CCP Tuxford wrote:
jonnykefka wrote:

Other thought: If the 5-minute delay is non-negotiable for technical reasons, then there is no reason to prohibit cloakies from copying BMs to the corp folder while cloaked. I was actually looking forward to being able to share BMs while cloaked as one of the big upgrades over copying the silly things to my cargohold. Requiring us to spend the extra 5-10 seconds decloaked at a safe-spot or midwarp to drag them from our BMs to the corp folder when there's a five-minute delay before the rest of the corp will get it anyways seems pointless.

I mentioned this whole issue of boosting scouts to a game designer and he wasn't really that stressed since we had the caching for 5 minutes (although he didn't want to commit to not being stressed about it later P). Yes making a 120km journey on going 250m/s takes 8 minutes but then again making a bookmark warping out and back in to the bookmark is way faster anyway. However the caching is 5 minutes so on average you will actually get the bookmarks 2.5 minutes later. Having this restricted by your cloaked state is very hard because, and excuse me for getting technical, the node we ask to copy the bookmarks is not the same as the one that the solar system is located on. However if needed then forcing a delay on the bookmarks to show up for other users is not that hard to do if we deem that necessary.


Just block folks from making or moving bms into the corp folders while cloaked.

CCP Tuxford wrote:

A lot of people have been involved in this feature. Awesome as I may be then the real thanks should go to the guy that made this a priority. I'm really just the tool.

Note to self: Stop referring to self as a tool.


I think Soundwave made this a priority just to shut me up... :)

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#68 - 2011-11-04 17:04:01 UTC
Hey everyone, I'm the designer Tux talked to.

We're both open to making further adjustments to the timing issue if needed*, but if we're going to add additional complexity to the code (needs more testing, makes maintenance harder, more code that can potentially break), we want to be sure that it's strictly necessary.

Obviously I see that rapid bookmark distribution is a bonus, but given the existing ability to yo-yo to the nearest celestial with negligible risk in under a minute, I'm currently looking at this as a fairly thin bonus, and it's not immediately obvious that the state of affairs that will exist if this change goes through as-is is actually broken or unbalanced, as opposed to just being different to how things are currently.

The only case I'm really seeing as potentially problematic right now is trying to jump ratters in nullsec, because the 30-60 seconds potentially shaved there could make a real difference. I'm listening for concerns in this or other scenarios, though.

*What it'll be doing currently is that, every five minutes, all bookmarks are synced. This is not the same as a five-minute delay, because if you create your BM two seconds before the server runs its sync, your corpmates will get it pretty much straight away. We can I think do stuff like make the sync ignore BMs less than x minutes old if we want to, but as above the extra complexity needs to justify itself.
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#69 - 2011-11-04 17:22:41 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hey everyone, I'm the designer Tux talked to.

We're both open to making further adjustments to the timing issue if needed*, but if we're going to add additional complexity to the code (needs more testing, makes maintenance harder, more code that can potentially break), we want to be sure that it's strictly necessary.

Obviously I see that rapid bookmark distribution is a bonus, but given the existing ability to yo-yo to the nearest celestial with negligible risk in under a minute, I'm currently looking at this as a fairly thin bonus, and it's not immediately obvious that the state of affairs that will exist if this change goes through as-is is actually broken or unbalanced, as opposed to just being different to how things are currently.

The only case I'm really seeing as potentially problematic right now is trying to jump ratters in nullsec, because the 30-60 seconds potentially shaved there could make a real difference. I'm listening for concerns in this or other scenarios, though.

*What it'll be doing currently is that, every five minutes, all bookmarks are synced. This is not the same as a five-minute delay, because if you create your BM two seconds before the server runs its sync, your corpmates will get it pretty much straight away. We can I think do stuff like make the sync ignore BMs less than x minutes old if we want to, but as above the extra complexity needs to justify itself.


Read up for the simple fix to this. Just prevent corp bookmarks from being created on the client while a client is cloaked.

Nullsec is not the issue, since they are gonna see you in local. W-space is the issue, where we often watch people running sites and have enough time to carefully plan our attack. Right now, getting a good warpin on someone running a sleeper site is somewhat risky, with the changes it will be much, much easier.

I would also suggest making the sync ignore BMs less than 2 minutes old, as that system would be exploited as well.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Magic Crisp
Amarrian Micro Devices
#70 - 2011-11-04 17:38:31 UTC
Whe you're taking a look at bookmarks, could you please take a look at the foldering capabilities? When we have lotsa more bookmarks than the screen size, then it's getting very tough to add the lower ones into folders. Something like doing a rclick on a selection of bookmarks and having the option to "move to folder X" would be great. Similar how it works on drones.

Otherwise it's a pretty awesome feature, thank you very much for implementing this.
Zedah Zoid
Good Eats
#71 - 2011-11-04 18:26:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Zedah Zoid
Two step wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hey everyone, I'm the designer Tux talked to.

We're both open to making further adjustments to the timing issue if needed*, but if we're going to add additional complexity to the code (needs more testing, makes maintenance harder, more code that can potentially break), we want to be sure that it's strictly necessary.

Obviously I see that rapid bookmark distribution is a bonus, but given the existing ability to yo-yo to the nearest celestial with negligible risk in under a minute, I'm currently looking at this as a fairly thin bonus, and it's not immediately obvious that the state of affairs that will exist if this change goes through as-is is actually broken or unbalanced, as opposed to just being different to how things are currently.

The only case I'm really seeing as potentially problematic right now is trying to jump ratters in nullsec, because the 30-60 seconds potentially shaved there could make a real difference. I'm listening for concerns in this or other scenarios, though.

*What it'll be doing currently is that, every five minutes, all bookmarks are synced. This is not the same as a five-minute delay, because if you create your BM two seconds before the server runs its sync, your corpmates will get it pretty much straight away. We can I think do stuff like make the sync ignore BMs less than x minutes old if we want to, but as above the extra complexity needs to justify itself.


Read up for the simple fix to this. Just prevent corp bookmarks from being created on the client while a client is cloaked.

Nullsec is not the issue, since they are gonna see you in local. W-space is the issue, where we often watch people running sites and have enough time to carefully plan our attack. Right now, getting a good warpin on someone running a sleeper site is somewhat risky, with the changes it will be much, much easier.

I would also suggest making the sync ignore BMs less than 2 minutes old, as that system would be exploited as well.


I agree. My fear is that with a hardcoded interval for propagating bookmarks is that the pressure will be on to develop tools and/or techniques to predict when the next update will happen and these tools and/or techniques will require someone to create "baseline" dummy bookmarks from time to time just to establish where we are in the cycle of creation versus propagation.

And yes it sounds insane but I guarantee it will be done because it gives you an edge in getting your fleet ready to move etc. If the propagation interval varied randomly(due to subspace interference of course...) then you remove the incentive to try to create tools to predict the time the next update hits.

I can see how a global polling interval is good for you guys as opposed to dealing with potentially thousands of interrupt driven individual events but does the interval really have to be fixed? Just say they'll propagate somewhere between 3 and 7 minutes or 4 and 6 minutes or whatever. I admit I have not played with this yet on SISI. Do you have to take some action to refresh your corp BM list or do they just automatically show up when the propagation interval fires? If it requires a player action then that potentially becomes another d-scan like click-fest to anticipate getting them.

BTW, thanks for looking into this!
Circumstantial Evidence
#72 - 2011-11-04 19:21:32 UTC
Magic Crisp wrote:
Whe you're taking a look at bookmarks, could you please take a look at the foldering capabilities? When we have lotsa more bookmarks than the screen size, then it's getting very tough to add the lower ones into folders.
A handy method here is to double-click on the bookmark folder - to open it in a new window. Then you can scroll the list as you please and drag / drop BM's into the folder-window.
Dr Mercy
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#73 - 2011-11-04 20:49:43 UTC
Sorry if this has been answered already, but how does a bookmark become a corp bookmark? Does the method end up requiring the player to be uncloaked?

Make isk with PI: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?1207-What-to-do-PI-Processor-only-planets
Rafe Vatta
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#74 - 2011-11-04 20:55:26 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Obviously I see that rapid bookmark distribution is a bonus, but given the existing ability to yo-yo to the nearest celestial with negligible risk in under a minute, I'm currently looking at this as a fairly thin bonus, and it's not immediately obvious that the state of affairs that will exist if this change goes through as-is is actually broken or unbalanced, as opposed to just being different to how things are currently.

If it's just the one system worth of bookmarks, I would agree that 5 minutes is not that overpowered - especially if there wasn't the possibility of instant bookmarks.

But sometimes I'm scouting a chain of wormholes, and I'm all on my own looking for targets. Maybe the chain is even starting from some k-space system that is vaguely nearby our home system. At some point maybe I get three wormholes deep from my starting system and I find some targets. Everyone can get to the starting system, either via bookmarks that have already propagated, or gates, or whatever, but they can't get to me.

Currently, the procedure is to either have me jump all the way back to fetch the reinforcement fleet from 3 jumps away (and risk being seen on dscan jumping out), or ask the reinforcement fleet to scan their way in using the signature IDs that I hopefully noted. If bookmarks could propagate within 5 minutes, it would be faster to push them out to the corp than any other method. Now, if I can't push bookmarks to corp while cloaked as Two Step and other have suggested, at least that adds a bit of time and risk. I can either choose to look for a place offscan to copy bookmarks, or jump out to the neighboring system (and risk getting seen jumping out, same as above).

Of course, every time I jump through a new wormhole, I would be decloaked anyways, so it would make sense to just push the updates for each system when I jump. So I don't actually need to do anything special to get the reinforcement fleet up to the right system, just wait for the bookmarks to propogate. Then it's just a matter of providing a warpin or slinging the fleet.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of being able to scout completely solo, not recording sigs or anything, and have my reinforcement fleet magically appear where it's needed. I am just not sure it's a mechanic that is good for the game. It's probably a bit of an edge case, but hopefully I explained it well enough that you can now decide how it factors into things. Don't have any ideas for fixing at the moment either.
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#75 - 2011-11-04 22:36:30 UTC  |  Edited by: GeeShizzle MacCloud
i know this might seem a bit mad and i guess some people may rage about this but currently a cloaky scout can be on grid and bookmark an object close to a target and then warp out.. jump out and copy bm's to their FC that can in turn jump in with a fleet and warp a fleet on top of them.

We also currently have TWO ways of making bookmarks, via right clicking an object in space and by opening up people/places and clicking "bookmark location"

>> how about disabling the right click style of bookmarks when your cloaked, but still allow the "bookmark location" form when cloaked.

What this would mean is cloaky scouts cant insta BM stuff 100's of KM away and should use "bookmark location" bm's and warp to's from celestials to get closer to a target to get a good tactical BM.
Or they can align out and uncloak and grab that BM just b4 warping out. This would solve the OP nature of covert right click BM;ing objects in space and chucking them in corp BM folder.

My issue with the corp BM even with the 5min delay, and EVEN with the inability to sync BM's to corp when cloaked, is that a savvy cloaky scout can BM an area.. and warp to an area more than 16AU away, decloak and start the sync uncloaked without the problem of being d-scanned.

I would also like to add that the Corp BM addition/deletion should be tied in to the corp fittings role as its a tactical / Quality of life assistance role.
You should also only be able to add and delete Corp BM's and not be able to drag Corp BM's OUT of the corp folder. much like implants, u can put them in and share them but you cant remove them without destroying them.

People should NOT be able to copy Corp BM's themselves to whoever they please out of corp, even WITH the right roles to add etc...

They should remain a corp asset unless the original creator wishes to gift them to other corps.

Like a form of intellectual property, Corp BM's should act like a licence to use something but restricting the ability to RE-distribute in an ad-hoc nature.
Sassums
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#76 - 2011-11-05 03:38:32 UTC
The 5 minute delay once again is a negative for us in the WH.

While members can always warp to a fleet member, if the member is not in the same system, but new members are logging on, it would be nice to have them be able to warp to a BM that we just created, or if we need help NOW, rather than 5 minutes from now.

Any word on if the Alliance Bookmark system is something you folks can implement?
Endeavour Starfleet
#77 - 2011-11-05 06:23:02 UTC
CCP while it seems on the surface to be a "thin bonus" Just like AFK cloaking tacticians will dive into it and every aspect you could not even dream of intending it for. Because those who can make use of it get lots of blips on the killboards.


For ratters this is an absolute nightmare. An AFK cloaky can return active and set the right bookmarks to get an interceptor of a roaming fleet on top of you in the blink of an eye if it is close to the gate. Before you could atleast be out of range of the warpin with good bookmark use but now the rat you destroyed will be the beacon that finds you scrammed and owned in no time.

I understand there is a technical issue with a direct block on access while cloaked server side. However if I may suggest something client side that blocks access to create them while cloaked. I second the idea to block the right click method while cloaked as a way to preserve the old way to create them as a lesser monster but even that I fear will be abused.

I know the clock is ticking and the benefits of it at the start will outweigh the risks. However I suspect that will change quickly and I do request if you can implement a way to assure that bookmarks wont show for atleast 5 mins. Then have that ready for quick deployment in early 2012.

Atleast with a 5 min delay the abuse can be countered by having a number of warp in bookmarks to the belt to prevent an instapwn.
Faeyen
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#78 - 2011-11-05 06:31:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Faeyen
It almost seems like now that Corp bookmarks are finally coming that people are realizing that they didn't even want them in the first place... Corp bookmarks have always meant that scouts would not have to go through the process of phsically sharing bookmarks throughout the Corp. It seems to me that what people really want is a way to copy more than 5 bookmarks at a time. Nice try ccp but it looks like you need to start all over. What?
Endeavour Starfleet
#79 - 2011-11-05 07:11:23 UTC
Faeyen wrote:
It almost seems like now that Corp bookmarks are finally coming that people are realizing that they didn't even want them in the first place... Corp bookmarks have always meant that scouts would not have to go through the process of phsically sharing bookmarks throughout the Corp. It seems to me that what people really want is a way to copy more than 5 bookmarks at a time. Nice try ccp but it looks like you need to start all over. What?


Nono!

This is an issue that can be abused greatly but the idea of corp bookmarks is still valid.

It would still be highly useful even with a 2 hour delay because its big use is after someone scans down the sites after DT. The issue can be hopefully addressed to prevent mass abuse ala AFK cloaking. Yet that doesn't take away from how good corp bookmarks are.
Greygal
Redemption Road
Affirmative.
#80 - 2011-11-05 08:40:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Greygal
Currently, on SISI, we are limited to ONLY 250 corp bookmarks. At least that's what it looks like to me. Hopefully I'm reading that wrong - but if I'm not, 250 corp bookmarks is NOT ENOUGH.

There should be NO limit whatsoever on bookmarks, just as there currently is no limit.

Considering I can easily have 20, 25, or more bookmarks in a single system what with undocks, tac's off gates, etc., 250 bookmarks is not even remotely enough.

I have not checked yet, but I certainly hope there is not a limit to personal bookmarks.

Please reconsider having any limit on the total number of corp bookmarks.

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