These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

CCP, when eve is getting real PvP?

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#121 - 2013-05-22 22:38:20 UTC
Karsa Egivand wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Except piloting skills are skillpoints.

No, there is a LOT to proper skill. There is a ton of things to think of and keep track of when entering into a fight (things like radial velocity, slingshot maneuvers, spiraling in, optimal/falloff, among others...).

There are obvious cases where a single low SP pilot WILL defeat the higher SP pilot almost all the time. An assault frigate noob vs. a tier 3 battlecruiser being one example.

But in many more cases the result may be open, as far as ship-type/fit vs other ship-type/fit goes. In these cases both SP and actual piloting skill play a role.
In some cases piloting skills > SP. Let's say a frigate fight between a longpoint-kiter and a scram/web-brawler. In such a case piloting skill will trump SP anytime. If the kiter (maybe a Navy Slicer) just hits orbit, he'll lose if the brawler can pull off a proper slingshot maneuvre. Has nothing to do with SP, just with skill. Now if the kiter pays attention he'll switch to manual flying at the proper time and make sure the range initially doesn't grow and (once the brawler executes the turnaround), will immediately reverse vectors.

In other cases SP > piloting skills. Let's say two similiarly fitted buffer-tanked brawling cruisers duking it out. But even here there is a lot of room for error, or even just more kill, depending on the weapon systems in use. It may very well be possible to reduce tracking enough (fly under the guns) by manually orbiting close (<500m).

Also, beyond a few M SP, frig and cruiser fights are practically equal by default. Any dozen million SP beyond that won't help the older char anyway.


It is ridiculous to assume higher SP and lower SP players will be in even remotely equal ships.
Since when 25 million SP if "few M"?
By the time lower SP maxes cruisers, higher SP will max every possible cruiser killer combination. You just don't stand a chance against higher SP unless a terrible mistake is made, and you cannot force that mistake to happen. Which means your chance to win by skill is 0%, which means SP just dominated the scene.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#122 - 2013-05-22 22:46:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Karsa Egivand
Basil Pupkin wrote:
It is ridiculous to assume higher SP and lower SP players will be in even remotely equal ships.
Since when 25 million SP if "few M"?
By the time lower SP maxes cruisers, higher SP will max every possible cruiser killer combination. You just don't stand a chance against higher SP unless a terrible mistake is made, and you cannot force that mistake to happen. Which means your chance to win by skill is 0%, which means SP just dominated the scene.


You seem to have the notion that bigger ships are always better. This is not the case. I can give you many examples of smaller ships being vastly superior to a larger ship type in combat.

any assault frigate > tier 3 battlecruisers
actually, almost any combat frigate > tier 3 battlecruisers

assault frigate > most battleships (unless drone BS)
any combat frigate > long-range battleships (unless drone BS)

many T1 cruisers > long-range battleships / tier3 batltecruisers with long range weaponry
(e.g. Vexor > artillery tornado/tempest)

I could list more such combinations. The ones above mostly rely on the insufficient tracking of the larger guns vs. smaller targets (also their inability to escape due to being slow). There are other such combinations that rely on other factors (range and speed, ewar, etc.)

This is also the reason that many high SP pilots never stop flying frigates and cruisers (the new T1 cruisers rock), let alone battlecruisers.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#123 - 2013-05-22 22:47:13 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
It is ridiculous to assume higher SP and lower SP players will be in even remotely equal ships.
Exactly. So why are you? Because that's the only way for your claim to be even the slightest bit close to true (and not even then does it account for what player skill can do).

Quote:
Since when 25 million SP if "few M"?
Since, oh, 2004 or so.

Quote:
By the time lower SP maxes cruisers, higher SP will max every possible cruiser killer combination.
…and the error “lower SP” does is to max cruisers when it's an immense waste of time and effort to do so compared to what you get.

Quote:
You just don't stand a chance against higher SP unless a terrible mistake is made, and you cannot force that mistake to happen
Yes you can. That's where player skill comes in.
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#124 - 2013-05-22 22:48:44 UTC
Karsa Egivand wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
It is ridiculous to assume higher SP and lower SP players will be in even remotely equal ships.
Since when 25 million SP if "few M"?
By the time lower SP maxes cruisers, higher SP will max every possible cruiser killer combination. You just don't stand a chance against higher SP unless a terrible mistake is made, and you cannot force that mistake to happen. Which means your chance to win by skill is 0%, which means SP just dominated the scene.


You seem to have the notion that bigger ships are always better. This is not the case. I can give you many examples of smaller ships being vastly superior to a larger ship type in combat.

any assault frigate > tier 3 battlecruisers
actually, almost any combat frigate > tier 3 battlecruisers

assault frigate > most battleships (unless drone BS)
any combat frigate > long-range battleships (unless drone BS)

many T1 cruisers > long-range battleships / tier3 batltecruisers with long range weaponry
(e.g. Vexor > artillery tornado/tempest)

I could list more such combinations. The ones above mostly rely on the insufficient tracking of the larger guns vs. smaller targets (also their inability to escape due to being slow). There are other such combinations that rely on other factors (range and speed, ewar, etc.)

This is also the reason that many high SP pilots never stop flying frigatse and cruisers (let alone battlecruisers, which rock).


I said better ships are better, not bigger. And better ships take months to simply get into, not to mention do something in them.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#125 - 2013-05-22 22:50:23 UTC
Tippia wrote:
bs bs bs

0/10

Unless you don't get the silent hint, I will tell you straightly - whatever you troll is going to get thoroughly ignored.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#126 - 2013-05-22 22:51:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Karsa Egivand
Basil Pupkin wrote:
I said better ships are better, not bigger. And better ships take months to simply get into, not to mention do something in them.


A battleship can be an awesome ship. But if I get a chance to catch some (depending on type and fit) in a cruiser (best with tracking disruptor), I'll jump at it. A vexor is neither better nor worse than a tempest. It depends on the situation and fitting of both to decide who has the better chance of winning.

It almost doesn't matter in what ship you undock, there will be counters to that. Counters that a character with less SP can also fly. (I dare you to name a subcapital ship that doesn't have a good counter.)

Sometimes this rock/paper/scissors game doesn't leave much room for skill (real piloting skill or SP). Sometimes it'll be close, then both will matter.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#127 - 2013-05-22 22:57:19 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Tippia wrote:
bs bs bs

0/10
Prove it.

Quote:
Unless you don't get the silent hint, I will tell you straightly
The only hint so far is that you're impervious to facts and figures; that your claims have no basis in reality, mechanics, game history or anything; that you have no argument other than "nu-uh!”…

…in other words, the only conclusion is that you're a troll. But that's ok, because you'll serve as a proxy for the poor newbies who are unfortunate enough to genuinely believe the counter-factual nonsense you're spewing.

Quote:
I said better ships are better, not bigger.
There are no “better ships”. All harder-to-train-for ship can be readily beaten by easy-to-train-for ships.
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#128 - 2013-05-22 23:03:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Karsa Egivand
Tippia wrote:
Quote:
I said better ships are better, not bigger.
There are no “better ships”. All harder-to-train-for ships can be readily beaten by easy-to-train-for ships.


Quoted because Tippia said in a nice and concise fashion what I have been writing novels about. ("practice", i guessBlink)

A version that you can't misread as easily: "All harder-to-train-for ships can be readily beaten by a well chosen easy-to-train-for ship."
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#129 - 2013-05-22 23:05:58 UTC
Tippia posts make me fear for the end of intelligence in humanity, but makes me cheer because they'll only be 25 years left of it before everyone starves to death in the shopping line at Wal Mart.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#130 - 2013-05-22 23:09:29 UTC
Daaaamn cracka look Art how this 1y old PUNK is CRUNCHING all dem bitches 1337 solo **** outnumbered n stuff
http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=1366100

RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#131 - 2013-05-22 23:19:48 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
and you cannot force that mistake to happen. Which means your chance to win by skill is 0%



ok now, who the hell killed your multibillion pirate battleship with a T1 frigate?


it has to be that, right?

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#132 - 2013-05-22 23:21:27 UTC
Karsa Egivand wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Quote:
I said better ships are better, not bigger.
There are no “better ships”. All harder-to-train-for ships can be readily beaten by easy-to-train-for ships.


Quoted because Tippia said in a nice and concise fashion what I have been writing novels about. ("practice", i guessBlink)

A version that you can't misread as easily: "All harder-to-train-for ships can be readily beaten by a well chosen easy-to-train-for ship."


Wrong.
All harder-to-train-ships beat all but maybe one easy-to-train-ship, and having a free choice of harder-to-train-ships to kill you higher SP will dominate without effort.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#133 - 2013-05-22 23:23:42 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:


Wrong.
All harder-to-train-ships beat all but maybe one easy-to-train-ship, and having a free choice of harder-to-train-ships to kill you higher SP will dominate without effort.


So how did a dram die to a badger?
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#134 - 2013-05-22 23:26:19 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:


Wrong.
All harder-to-train-ships beat all but maybe one easy-to-train-ship, and having a free choice of harder-to-train-ships to kill you higher SP will dominate without effort.


So how did a dram die to a badger?

and this was back in the days when drams were quite... powerful.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#135 - 2013-05-22 23:33:14 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Karsa Egivand wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Quote:
I said better ships are better, not bigger.
There are no “better ships”. All harder-to-train-for ships can be readily beaten by easy-to-train-for ships.


Quoted because Tippia said in a nice and concise fashion what I have been writing novels about. ("practice", i guessBlink)

A version that you can't misread as easily: "All harder-to-train-for ships can be readily beaten by a well chosen easy-to-train-for ship."


Wrong.
All harder-to-train-ships beat all but maybe one easy-to-train-ship, and having a free choice of harder-to-train-ships to kill you higher SP will dominate without effort.


This is wrong (obviously so) and you never reply to all the examples given.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#136 - 2013-05-22 23:38:19 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Wrong.
All harder-to-train-ships beat all but maybe one easy-to-train-ship
Prove it.

Quote:
having a free choice of harder-to-train-ships to kill you higher SP will dominate without effort.
One problem: you don't have free choice.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#137 - 2013-05-22 23:40:03 UTC
The more I see of the OPs posting the more I'm convinced that, he's either a troll, a little bit special or both.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#138 - 2013-05-22 23:41:04 UTC
This is obviously right. Must I repeat it for you?

Basil Pupkin wrote:
All harder-to-train-ships beat all but maybe one easy-to-train-ship, and having a free choice of harder-to-train-ships to kill you higher SP will dominate without effort.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Luna Q
ASTARTES CORP
Hashashin Cartel
#139 - 2013-05-22 23:43:38 UTC
you are stupid, & should feel bad. Quit now & give all your stuff to people that have learned to EvE.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#140 - 2013-05-22 23:44:19 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
This is obviously right.
Prove it.

Quote:
Must I repeat it for you?
No, just prove it.