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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Gallente

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Julius Foederatus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2561 - 2013-05-22 16:17:07 UTC
The hype has less dps and a wasted bonus, not to mention more of its dps comes from drones. Even if the hype would be able to do this kind of work, that's no reason to make the mega cap-unstable even when its running its guns and nothing else.
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
#2562 - 2013-05-22 16:21:41 UTC  |  Edited by: ExAstra
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
ExAstra wrote:
It's not a dishonest comparison because both of these ships rely completely on guns for their offensive prowess. The Dominix doesn't NEED to be fast to get damage in, being a drone boat. The only reason the Thorax was compared to the Vexor is because there simply isn't another option for a combat cruiser to choose from on the Gallente lineup.

Granted, this trend is actually different amongst Caldari and Amarr, where their Attack Battleships are actually quite faster than their closest combat counterpart. But let's use the Megathron vs Dominix, as you like. We find here that:

1) Raven is 26.96% faster than the Rokh
2) Apocalypse is 26.96% faster than the Abaddon
3) Tempest is 35.10% faster than the Maelstrom (Typhoon, Attack BS #2 is 38.29% faster)
3) Megathron is 11.96% faster than the Dominix

First question, did CCP give Caldari/Amarr the exact same speeds on purpose (lawl)? The problem with the Gallente Attack Battleship is that our ships are already decently quick, like I said, and our "Attack" variant comes in with, at highest value, 15% less of a speed boost compared to its counterparts. CCP can't get them that same feeling of speed over their combat counterparts because it either ruins our combat BS by nerfing their speeds, or it simply makes the Megathron too fast.

I have no issues with the Megathron's speed as it is. But I think it makes more sense to just call it a Combat Battleship and give us 3 Combat Battleships, as the Minmatar get 2 Attack Battleships. Really though, I don't think it matters much. If I had my way, I'd slow the Mega down, buff its HP, call it Combat; conversely I'd nerf Hyperion HP a bit, buff its speed further, and call it Attack.

If it's not dishonest, you can admit that it's not really relevant at least.

The thing is that gallente ships are designed for blasters, and blaster ships got speed to be able to reach their target with the hybrid rebalance.

Combat and attack role are not meant to kill racial identity anyway, despite some people believing the contrary. And you shouldn't mistake combat with fleet. The only "real" fleet ship of the gallente lineup is the Dominix. Attack BS are some kind of light battleships designed to shoot at smaller target and fly along them whereas combat battleship are more designed for battleship fights. That's a general idea though, not more, and you need to add fleet and skirmish ability on top of that : the Maelstrom, despite the shield booster bonus, is more of a fleet ship, and the shield booster bonus only add a small gang ability but it's not a brawler. The Hyperion though is clearly a brawler designed to catch and stand, but will now lack some punch for fleet. And the Megathron is a support counterpart for the Hyperion, designed to shoot at smaller things.

IMO, the BS attack role is geared toward ABC (and BC) countering : they have the tank to stand against them, (more than anything lighter but the hardest CBC) and the range, damage and damage application to return back the punishment. An ABS should be able to take on 2 ABC on its own IMO, and still sport enough mobility to get safe before the fight escalate.

You can only call the comparison irrelevant if you call the title of Attack Battleship irrelevant, as I already mentioned.

As I've already said, this was entirely in the interest of numbers and comparison. And before you go completely misunderstanding what I'm saying, I will remind you that I have already stated:

Quote:
...both of these ships rely completely on guns for their offensive prowess. The Dominix doesn't NEED to be fast to get damage in, being a drone boat.
...The problem with the Gallente Attack Battleship is that our ships are already decently quick...
... CCP can't get them that same feeling of speed over their combat counterparts because it either ruins our combat BS by nerfing their speeds, or it simply makes the Megathron too fast...
....I have no issues with the Megathron's speed as it is.


I've clearly shown that I'm not arguing about any problems with the Megathron. The label of attack Battleship just DOESN'T make sense on it, when our other ships are already nearly as quick as it is, and it only gets a fraction of the speedboost over its closest counterpart (which would be the Hyperion in this case) when compared to the other races. And if you feel that you can call the comparison irrelevant in any sense, then you are agreeing with me. The Attack Battleship label on the Megathron is relatively meaningless.

I'm not saying it's a big deal, I'm not crying for change, etc. I am simply stating facts and providing information, followed by my opinion on the matter (Which is either give us 3 combat Battleships or make the Hyperion the Attack Battleship instead)

Save the drones!
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2563 - 2013-05-22 16:33:24 UTC
ExAstra wrote:
I've clearly shown that I'm not arguing about any problems with the Megathron. The label of attack Battleship just DOESN'T make sense on it, when our other ships are already nearly as quick as it is, and it only gets a fraction of the speedboost over its closest counterpart (which would be the Hyperion in this case) when compared to the other races. And if you feel that you can call the comparison irrelevant in any sense, then you are agreeing with me. The Attack Battleship label on the Megathron is relatively meaningless.

I'm not saying it's a big deal, I'm not crying for change, etc. I am simply stating facts and providing information, followed by my opinion on the matter (Which is either give us 3 combat Battleships or make the Hyperion the Attack Battleship instead)

Not if you read my whole post where, at the end, I say that this attack role relate more to damage application than to speed.

You can think it's meaningless, or you can just read CCP Rise description :
CCP Rise wrote:
As with other ship classes, attack battleships will be faster, more agile, and will focus more on damage application and projection than their combat counterparts.


Indeed the speed difference don't appear a lot for gallente BS, but still, it's there, and that's not the only thing going for attack BS. In this way, the Hyperion couldn't fit the attack role without losing the armor rep bonus (I guess a lot would love that) and the Megathron couldn't go to the combat role without losing the tracking bonus (I guess a lot would hate that).

The first proposition for Mega and Hype made more sense IMO, but I'm getting used to this one.
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
#2564 - 2013-05-22 16:56:54 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
ExAstra wrote:
I've clearly shown that I'm not arguing about any problems with the Megathron. The label of attack Battleship just DOESN'T make sense on it, when our other ships are already nearly as quick as it is, and it only gets a fraction of the speedboost over its closest counterpart (which would be the Hyperion in this case) when compared to the other races. And if you feel that you can call the comparison irrelevant in any sense, then you are agreeing with me. The Attack Battleship label on the Megathron is relatively meaningless.

I'm not saying it's a big deal, I'm not crying for change, etc. I am simply stating facts and providing information, followed by my opinion on the matter (Which is either give us 3 combat Battleships or make the Hyperion the Attack Battleship instead)

Not if you read my whole post where, at the end, I say that this attack role relate more to damage application than to speed.

You can think it's meaningless, or you can just read CCP Rise description :
CCP Rise wrote:
As with other ship classes, attack battleships will be faster, more agile, and will focus more on damage application and projection than their combat counterparts.


Indeed the speed difference don't appear a lot for gallente BS, but still, it's there, and that's not the only thing going for attack BS. In this way, the Hyperion couldn't fit the attack role without losing the armor rep bonus (I guess a lot would love that) and the Megathron couldn't go to the combat role without losing the tracking bonus (I guess a lot would hate that).

The first proposition for Mega and Hype made more sense IMO, but I'm getting used to this one.

I have to disagree about the first proposition making more sense. I am incredibly pleased that those initial ideas were tossed aside.

In regards to Rise's idea of Attack Battleships, that's all well and good, but the only information available to us is "The Megathron is an Attack Battleship designed for fast, aggressive combat." makes it appear to be basically the Battleship sized version of an ABC. Something that's fast and hits hard and is more worried about how tough its foe's hide is than its own. Also, it is pretty arguable that the most important thing to the Megathron is speed and agility as a blaster ship, blaster tracking is fairly decent after the hybrid buff.

The Tempest also completely fails to fulfill its role as an Attack Battleship if "damage application and projection" is to be considered. The Raven is slightly questionable in that aspect as well, I would say the Typhoon does a better job at being an Attack Battleship than either of them. Mainly because the explosion velocity bonus on the 'phoon is much closer to the Tracking bonus given to the Megathron and Apocalypse.

The problem with the Tempest, I think, is that it's doing too little DPS for too little range. It should get a higher damage bonus and a falloff bonus, in my opinion.

But this is the Gallente thread.

Save the drones!
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2565 - 2013-05-22 17:18:20 UTC
its odd that the domi has the best cap regen ..... surely the Hyperion should have the best

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
#2566 - 2013-05-22 17:40:08 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
its odd that the domi has the best cap regen ..... surely the Hyperion should have the best

It would be the best for it since the Dominix doesn't really care much about capacitor and the Hyperion is, you know, active armor tanked.

I think this is just gonna be one of those things where we'll never understand why it is the way it is.

Save the drones!
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#2567 - 2013-05-22 18:30:14 UTC
ExAstra wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
its odd that the domi has the best cap regen ..... surely the Hyperion should have the best

It would be the best for it since the Dominix doesn't really care much about capacitor and the Hyperion is, you know, active armor tanked.

I think this is just gonna be one of those things where we'll never understand why it is the way it is.


I suspect that it's because they've chosen to tinker with existing stats rather than rework from a standardised base.

It would make far more sense given the descriptions of attack/combat ships for battleships to differentiate more extremely along those lines. 1 ship line should be doing a LOT more damage than the other and should suffer similarly with it's tank. I'd like to see 50% more dps on one line and 100% better tank (ehp) on the other. As already discussed I don't see speed being a defining characteristic for bs given the limitations of not treading on the toes of smaller ships and the removal of speed as a characteristic by any smaller ship applying tackle, which leaves tank and gank.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2568 - 2013-05-23 13:46:13 UTC
ExAstra wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
its odd that the domi has the best cap regen ..... surely the Hyperion should have the best

It would be the best for it since the Dominix doesn't really care much about capacitor and the Hyperion is, you know, active armor tanked.

I think this is just gonna be one of those things where we'll never understand why it is the way it is.



But the dominix will mostly likely fit all high with neuts :)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
#2569 - 2013-05-23 14:40:46 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
ExAstra wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
its odd that the domi has the best cap regen ..... surely the Hyperion should have the best

It would be the best for it since the Dominix doesn't really care much about capacitor and the Hyperion is, you know, active armor tanked.

I think this is just gonna be one of those things where we'll never understand why it is the way it is.



But the dominix will mostly likely fit all high with neuts :)

I'd say it's far more likely to fit highs with Drone Link Augmentors, actually.

Save the drones!
Jason Sirober
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2570 - 2013-05-23 14:41:32 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
ExAstra wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
its odd that the domi has the best cap regen ..... surely the Hyperion should have the best

It would be the best for it since the Dominix doesn't really care much about capacitor and the Hyperion is, you know, active armor tanked.

I think this is just gonna be one of those things where we'll never understand why it is the way it is.



But the dominix will mostly likely fit all high with neuts :)


WRONG

You'd be flying the Armageddon instead if you wanted to do that.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2571 - 2013-05-23 14:48:08 UTC
Jason Sirober wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
ExAstra wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
its odd that the domi has the best cap regen ..... surely the Hyperion should have the best

It would be the best for it since the Dominix doesn't really care much about capacitor and the Hyperion is, you know, active armor tanked.

I think this is just gonna be one of those things where we'll never understand why it is the way it is.



But the dominix will mostly likely fit all high with neuts :)


WRONG

You'd be flying the Armageddon instead if you wanted to do that.



Peopel wil stil use neuts on dominixes. As they will with tempest even while other ships are better.


No neither of the 2 are good neut boats, but they WILL USE NEUTS because they cannto do anything better than that!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Jason Sirober
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2572 - 2013-05-23 19:21:37 UTC
Quote:
But the dominix will mostly likely fit all high with neuts :)


This is NOT the same as saying the dominix will not use ANY neuts at all.

I was refering to the fact that if you wanted to put neuts in ALL the high slots, that you'd be better off flying an Armageddon instead.
mine mi
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2573 - 2013-05-23 22:01:17 UTC
maybe the gallente need two attacks bs like minma, while domi remain combat, the other two need be fast and agile to keep in blaster range
Perihelion Olenard
#2574 - 2013-05-24 11:13:31 UTC
Jason Sirober wrote:
Quote:
But the dominix will mostly likely fit all high with neuts :)


This is NOT the same as saying the dominix will not use ANY neuts at all.

I was refering to the fact that if you wanted to put neuts in ALL the high slots, that you'd be better off flying an Armageddon instead.

It also depends on if you need that midslot over an extra high and a neut range bonus.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#2575 - 2013-05-24 11:31:19 UTC
I also think the dominix should get 6 launcher slots, since it no longer gets a bonus to a particular weapon.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Zanquis
Hynix Galactic Industry
#2576 - 2013-05-24 21:00:51 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
THREAD UPDATED BASED ON FEEDBACK - Have a second look if you haven't since I originally posted.
Hyperion:

Here's the new and improved Hyperion. Based off of your feedback, this new version goes from 8 turrets to 6, while doubling its damage bonus from 5% per level to 10%. It also gains a larger drone bandwidth and bay, a utility high, and keeps its much-needed mid slot.

If anything, I'm worried this is too strong, but it should be an extremely fun ship to use. Hope you guys approve.

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+10% Large Hybrid Turret damage
+7.5% Armor Repair amount

Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M, 7L(+1); 6 turrets , 1 launchers
Fittings: 16000 PWG(+250), 600 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 7500 / 8000 / 8500
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second: 7200 / 1500s / 4.8
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 115 / .1178 / 100200000 / 16.36s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125(+25) / 175(+75)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 110 / 7
Sensor strength: 23 Magnetometric Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 485


Looks good. Interesting take since it moves some of it's DPS to drones. (The guns will produce a bit less dps than the current model, but the net dps will be higher for adding another heavy drone)

However I would caution you that with a reduction of 2 guns from the rack you are giving this ship a *VERY* big cession in fitting for PG. Guns are far more demanding than most low slot enhancements. I think that instead of increasing the PG you should decrease it a tad so that it would be challenging to fit a energy neut in the utility high without making a sacrifice. If you leave it as is, I'm afraid it will be easy to fit this ship any way you like without consequence. That's not the eve way!
magikalcoffee
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2577 - 2013-05-24 22:08:14 UTC
these changes are generally poor and im rather upset about the ass f****ng the domi is getting! at the moment i can get 1600 dps from mine and will be very sad to lose it to ccp rather than a blob, drones are week on their own as they gotta drag their fat asses to the ship before any damage can be layed down and for pve it will be more or less redundant due to the new A.I which creams drones as it is let alone having to come back from further away due to a pointless bonus to drone range which can be easily extended with a mod now as the damage bonus has gone for turrets anyway
supernova ranger
The End of Eternity
#2578 - 2013-05-25 05:30:41 UTC
QUICK! Someone get a medical kit because my Domi is dying!

Heavy drones are useless in pve and pvp unless your in a typhoon because no other ship is fast enough to get in close enough to guard/ pull in their heavies when they start getting shot at... And the typhoon fails here too because it can't really tank and survives by not getting hit...
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
#2579 - 2013-05-25 06:40:00 UTC  |  Edited by: ExAstra
Zanquis wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
THREAD UPDATED BASED ON FEEDBACK - Have a second look if you haven't since I originally posted.
Hyperion:

Here's the new and improved Hyperion. Based off of your feedback, this new version goes from 8 turrets to 6, while doubling its damage bonus from 5% per level to 10%. It also gains a larger drone bandwidth and bay, a utility high, and keeps its much-needed mid slot.

If anything, I'm worried this is too strong, but it should be an extremely fun ship to use. Hope you guys approve.

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+10% Large Hybrid Turret damage
+7.5% Armor Repair amount

Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M, 7L(+1); 6 turrets , 1 launchers
Fittings: 16000 PWG(+250), 600 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 7500 / 8000 / 8500
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second: 7200 / 1500s / 4.8
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 115 / .1178 / 100200000 / 16.36s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125(+25) / 175(+75)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 110 / 7
Sensor strength: 23 Magnetometric Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 485


Looks good. Interesting take since it moves some of it's DPS to drones. (The guns will produce a bit less dps than the current model, but the net dps will be higher for adding another heavy drone)

However I would caution you that with a reduction of 2 guns from the rack you are giving this ship a *VERY* big cession in fitting for PG. Guns are far more demanding than most low slot enhancements. I think that instead of increasing the PG you should decrease it a tad so that it would be challenging to fit a energy neut in the utility high without making a sacrifice. If you leave it as is, I'm afraid it will be easy to fit this ship any way you like without consequence. That's not the eve way!

Multiple LARs plus rep rigging (which now multiplies powergrid consumption). At all V, Large Armor Rep IIs use an extra 200 powergrid over Neutron Blaster Cannon IIs, and when you rig it with Nano Pumps and Nano Accelerators the dual reps (popular fit uses tri-reps) account for 1/4 of the Hyperion's Powergrid, easily. I should also note that it's not often I ever run out of Powergrid on Gallente ships.

The Hyperion will also require the large Powergrid if it wishes to make use of Railguns, which it NOW can. The old Hyperion could not reasonably use Railguns.

Save the drones!
Julius Foederatus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2580 - 2013-05-25 15:50:52 UTC
So is that a no to more cap on the mega to make up for the increased cap drain from the RoF bonus?