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1500 DPS Odyssey Typhoon Fleet Issue versus CNR... And 1428 of that 1500 is applied DPS...

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Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#21 - 2013-05-22 12:37:18 UTC
Signal11th wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Luckily all rats appear within unbonused torp range and then stay still so that they don't cause any gun/sentry tracking issues at that range. Considerate of them, I call it.

Yeah no seriously though, I have a HAM Tengu with ~31Km effective range, and I find that can be limiting on a ship with the agility of a cruiser, never mind the ~17-18 or so on unbonused torps.

However, I don't wish to interrupt the pleasure that people get from stroking off to EFT numbers - I enjoy it myself on occasion - so by all means do continue.

Mal,
A bit of friendly advice. You're on the CSM now. That means you're a diplomat and your reputation is at stake with every single little thing you say or don't say, and how you say/not say it. Whenever you feel the urge to rip on something, stop, take a deep breath and stop automatically assuming that other people are complete idiots. This will help prevent you from saying something "sharp/witty" that makes you look stupid.

You have probably figured out by now that we're talking about Cruise Missiles and not Torps. Which is fine, we all jump to conclusions or make premature assumptions sometimes.

If you didn't read my post and just assuming that I was EFT whoring, then shame on you. People don't make long posts, post stats, and graphs without having a modicrum of intelligence.

If you read/skimmed my post and somehow came away with the idea I was EFT whoring, then that means you may not be aware of how EFT's DPS graph works. If you already know about the DPS chart, then never mind. Otherwise, you will be pleased to learn that the DPS chart takes speed, sig size, falloff, transveral, etc., into account. It's a very useful tool that can useful for analyzing min-maxing, balancing, etc., which may be relevant to your CSM position.


Again, you're a CSM rep, it's a high profile and important position, so please try to adopt a positive, less cynical perspective and let us to help you to help Eve.




lol be careful what you wish for Malcanis, Now your a "CSM" member your usual witty sharp replies are now just things for people to vent about all because of three little letters.

Personally vent as much as you want I'm sure you will survive the forum warriors.

Personally anybody who says they want to "have sex" with something that isn't real, really needs to take a look at themselves even if it was said in jest.


Amen to that. Being a CSM doesn't change a damn thing, you keep fighting the good fight Mal.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#22 - 2013-05-22 13:17:59 UTC
I didn't stand as a bloc candidate or a 0.0 candidate or a FHC bro or a Kuguposter, I stood on what and who I am and was voted in on that basis alone. Not only do I see no reason to change my methods, I see it as cowardly and dishonest to do so. What, I should sell out now that I'm on the CSM?


However, even if I had stood as all of those things and I hoped to be elected to every CSM from now till TQ shuts down, I'd still call out bad logic and unsupported assumptions whenever I see them.

This thinly disguised and minimally credible "Please don't make me look bad or I'll cause trouble for you and the CSM" threat will, if anything, only have the exact opposite effect you intend. Attempt to strike me down and I will become snarkier than you can possibly imagine.

----


Back on topic: If people think that the Fleet Typhoon will be a superior PvE platform, they're welcome to buy it, try it and fly it for that prupose. There's sufficient time to train Minmatar Battleship 4 starting from scratch before the expansion hits: do that. Personally I think that they'll be fantastic PvP ships, but somewhat less efficient than the Navy Raven at PvE. I'm happy to qualify that statement with "for the way I use it". YMMV, de gustibus non est disputandem, caveat emptor, specifications subject to change without notice.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#23 - 2013-05-22 17:28:04 UTC
If you had done the CNR v.s. the Rattlesnake this thread would have been awsome. Ugh
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-05-22 19:39:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Arkadelphia wrote:
As others have said....or tried to suggest..this won't work.


Considering the (slightly different from these, but not much) fit I'll be using is a near mirror of my current fit today just it'll be on a phoon with some 150% of the DPS rather than a CNR - I assure you, it will work /very/ well indeed. In fact the only difference, really, is going to be the cruise changes: so I'll lose a small amount of application but gain far more damage than is lost. FAR more.

Tomorrows phoon is today's CNR on steroids.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#25 - 2013-05-22 19:50:14 UTC
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
If you had done the CNR v.s. the Rattlesnake this thread would have been awsome. Ugh


The Rattler damb well ought to be better; it's a pirate faction ship, and should be two notches better than a navy faction ship.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-05-22 19:54:08 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
... I stood on what and who I am and was voted in on that basis alone...
You were clear about that... it is why I voted for you.
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
#27 - 2013-05-22 20:09:07 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Arkadelphia wrote:
As others have said....or tried to suggest..this won't work.


Considering the (slightly different from these, but not much) fit I'll be using is a near mirror of my current fit today just it'll be on a phoon with some 150% of the DPS rather than a CNR - I assure you, it will work /very/ well indeed. In fact the only difference, really, is going to be the cruise changes: so I'll lose a small amount of application but gain far more damage than is lost. FAR more.

Tomorrows phoon is today's CNR on steroids.

It's ok, he and others are arm chair "experts" and are here to tell us all how everything in Eve "works" because they say so. It's like the people who say Blaster BS's like the Vindi don't ever work in any LvL 4, except all the ones they DO actually work in, like against Angels for example but I digress.

LvL 4 Missions = MAX Gank / MIN Tank with 2 or more fully setup ships based on mission reqs (short and long range).

The Operative: "There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: "You have no idea how true that is".
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#28 - 2013-05-22 20:10:12 UTC
Not sure how people can say it won't work. i will definitely be trying it. I have grown to love the RS and the new typhoon fleet checks all the boxes for me.

1) Can blap small ships as they approach, both turrets or sentries can do this;
2) If using drones for 1, ship must be able to use 5 sentries and have a drone bay to carry 5 of them and 5 lights;
3) If using drones then I must be able to fit 3 DDA's in the lows
3) If using 1 the high slots must be able to provide at least 300 dps from its high slots at more than 30km, don't care what it is, turrets or missiles. If it has a HS bonus to damage type I am dealing.. even better.

So the TFI ticks all the boxes for me and is cheap enough to go rat in null and lS with. What can I say, I am a simple pilot with simple requirements Lol

As to all the comments around the CSM bull.. that should be removed from the thread.. if people can't stick to the topic in a civilized manner they should be banned from the forums.
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2013-05-22 20:52:53 UTC
Test server and give it a shot. If it works - nice. If not -- well, it was an interesting idea.

I've seen tons of theory and "common knowledge" that's flat out bullshit and shown to be so by actually trying it out for yourself - much of which comes from vets who "know it".

So - when you can, go give it a shot on the test server and then come back and chat about it -- or others, who claim to "know" it won't work can get off their duffs and try it to see for themselves.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#30 - 2013-05-23 04:51:48 UTC
Fleet Phoon was already better than CNR at missions before drone damage augmenters, I would imagine post expansion it will be at least as good.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Bigg Gun
T.I.E. Inc.
#31 - 2013-05-23 13:48:01 UTC
you all realize that while you're shooting ships with your sentries you're not actually moving, right. So while a phoon is such a great ship with it's drones and missiles and even projectiles, it's actually a ship which sits in 1 place and waits for the rats to stop coming, while the cnr can slowly move on to the next gate. But hey good luck with your little fits :)
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#32 - 2013-05-23 14:02:41 UTC
Bigg Gun wrote:
you all realize that while you're shooting ships with your sentries you're not actually moving, right. So while a phoon is such a great ship with it's drones and missiles and even projectiles, it's actually a ship which sits in 1 place and waits for the rats to stop coming, while the cnr can slowly move on to the next gate.


I think you are right about mobility can be a big problem in some missions, but it never hurts to have more then one mission boat, there are pros and cons to any setup.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#33 - 2013-05-23 19:47:41 UTC
Bigg Gun wrote:
you all realize that while you're shooting ships with your sentries you're not actually moving, right. So while a phoon is such a great ship with it's drones and missiles and even projectiles, it's actually a ship which sits in 1 place and waits for the rats to stop coming, while the cnr can slowly move on to the next gate. But hey good luck with your little fits :)


I'm baffled by the volume of sentry toting boats I see coming and going in mission hubs then, unless there's more to it Blink.

Poster above me is right - have a few boats for the odd missions that need travel, its fairly standard, I'd have thought.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#34 - 2013-05-23 20:23:16 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Bigg Gun wrote:
you all realize that while you're shooting ships with your sentries you're not actually moving, right. So while a phoon is such a great ship with it's drones and missiles and even projectiles, it's actually a ship which sits in 1 place and waits for the rats to stop coming, while the cnr can slowly move on to the next gate. But hey good luck with your little fits :)


I'm baffled by the volume of sentry toting boats I see coming and going in mission hubs then, unless there's more to it Blink.

Poster above me is right - have a few boats for the odd missions that need travel, its fairly standard, I'd have thought.


Completely dependent on each mission. The Assault and AE you spawn next to the gate so no need to move. Dread pirate recon part one etc... you only have to traverse 20k and can just use light drones against frigs/dessies in the beginning. The blockade you can shoot the groups that spawn closer in then move on to the farther out groups. Essentially agro the far spawns and shoot the close ones while waiting in missions that warrant that. Burn down to the gate with lights out on missions that warrant that and then pull out the sentries if theres anything left.

With the fleet phoon it will be nice because you can use small AC's for the frigs and never have to pull out the light drones. As I recall its a lot faster than the CNR, even my Orca was faster than that thing.


internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#35 - 2013-05-24 04:35:36 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
If you had done the CNR v.s. the Rattlesnake this thread would have been awsome. Ugh


The Rattler damb well ought to be better; it's a pirate faction ship, and should be two notches better than a navy faction ship.


I've only been saying that since the thread where they announced they would be revamping pirate battleships years ago. 4 launchers and no bonus is just poopy. (haha no wonder my eve-search fu was failing me, I was probably on a forum "vacation" and was alt posting in the thread!) and here is the thread if anyone is interested: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1177474&page=1 Anyone remember when they added falloff to te/tcs? as I can't believe I would have said the mach didn't look all that great!?

but damn the rattler really could use either a damage bonus or just extra launchers. Drone damage amps help it out a bunch, but the launchers are so pathetic might as well just fit fofs and afk.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#36 - 2013-05-24 04:46:12 UTC
Bigg Gun wrote:
you all realize that while you're shooting ships with your sentries you're not actually moving, right. So while a phoon is such a great ship with it's drones and missiles and even projectiles, it's actually a ship which sits in 1 place and waits for the rats to stop coming, while the cnr can slowly move on to the next gate. But hey good luck with your little fits :)


7.5% damage bonus and 6 launchers gives the TFI 8.25 effective launchers to the cnr's 8. the drones are just extra! and anyways with a 200m3 drone bay you can carry plenty of extra drones for when you are moving. I use 3x sentries in my cnr now as they are awesome, plus a flight of lights, TFI has MORE!

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Lugalzagezi666
#37 - 2013-05-24 07:23:44 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
Anyone remember when they added falloff to te/tcs? as I can't believe I would have said the mach didn't look all that great!?

Dominion. I remember very well since whole amarr militia bar most hardcore roleplayers jumped to minmatar ships.Lol

And rattler lost its role when drones started to switch targets, except for its tank it is easily outdamaged by domi.
Btw worm, and gila share the same problem as rattler and succubus + phantasm are even worse. Some people pointed to that when ccp were buffing pirate ships, but noone cared. Why would they when they were being served omgwtfbbq mach, cyna and dram.
mama guru
Yazatas.
#38 - 2013-05-24 13:29:07 UTC
Pirate ships will need some reworking, but i'll be damned if it comes before the T2 rebalance.

EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak.
stoicfaux
#39 - 2013-05-24 15:11:30 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Bigg Gun wrote:
you all realize that while you're shooting ships with your sentries you're not actually moving, right. So while a phoon is such a great ship with it's drones and missiles and even projectiles, it's actually a ship which sits in 1 place and waits for the rats to stop coming, while the cnr can slowly move on to the next gate. But hey good luck with your little fits :)

Here's what you are missing:
a) All of the cruise missile hulls essentially have the same effective kill times against level 4 NPCs. Meaning, they all have the same effective applied missile DPS.

b) Thus the only real differences between the missile battleship hulls are drones, speed, tank, sensor strength, utility slots, etc..

c) Cruise missiles are DPS capped against battleships. Meaning, cruise missiles do 100% damage, and there's no way to increase it.

d) Increasing your kill times against NPC battleships means you need additional sources of damage, i.e. drones or guns.

e) The TFI can not only field 5 sentry drones, it can also enhance them with DDAs:
Garde II x5 :
No DDA: 300 DPS
+ 1 DDA: 369 DPS
+ 2 DDA: 443 DPS
+ 3 DDA: 501 DPS

f) And to add insult to injury, the TFI's 2xAC800 perform as 2 / (1-.375) = 3.2 ACs. So while I normally would consider a couple of popguns as needless padding of DPS numbers, I just can't ignore another "free" 135 DPS, especially when you're using TPs (increasing target sig size effectively improves your guns' tracking.)

And yes, this fit does require that the NPCs get close to you, which is what Angel NPCs tend to do. Plus Angels are easy to shield tank against.

As for the DPS loss due to movement, yes that is a valid point. However when I remember how often I just sat in one place when I missioned in a Golem, and when you are able to decline multiple missions in a row via faction standings (i.e. cherry pick your missions,) I don't consider it a significant drawback. edit: Especially when it's "free" DPS.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
ry ry
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2013-05-24 16:00:31 UTC  |  Edited by: ry ry
A lightly-tanked target painting full-gank TFI does great DPS at the expense of having laughable EHP.

I honestly don't see what some of you lot are complaining about to be honest, its not like you're doing competitive mission running, so i can only assume some kind of vested interest. And even if its only a case of ensuring you're making the absolute max isk p/h there is nothing stopping you trading in your trusty CNR for a TFI and carrying on regardless.

balance ships for PVP first, then WHs, mission running a distant third.




also, yes - malcanis is a spergelord, its actually one of his redeeming features and the reason i voted for him. sperge on you crazy diamond.