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[Odyssey] Navy Battleships

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Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#1201 - 2013-05-22 05:52:53 UTC
59 pages of bears sperging over their failboats covering the fact that cruise missiles were blatantly overbuffed.

.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#1202 - 2013-05-22 06:03:13 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

Seriously, i'd have thought you were better than that, before now I had a great deal of respect for your knowledge of the game.

I'm an individual Liang and you know that, yet you so little confidence in what your saying you have to lump me with others and pretend that words aren't even mine somehow apply to me? When, exactly, did i say anything concerning torps being awesome for the new CNR?

Bloody incredible.


Is this you freely admitting that the torp CNR is a pile of **** and the explo radius bonus does not in fact make up for the nerfed damage?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#1203 - 2013-05-22 06:06:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Jenn aSide wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

I agree that the new CNR is smaller and faster than the old one, unfortunately that's not really a niche we I can do a lot with.


fixed

Quote:
It's still outright inferior to the Typhoon and Typhoon Fleet in those areas - on top of being inferior in EHP, damage, damage application, rate of fire, drone damage, utility high slots, and more. Yeah - tell me more about how you won't be able to do these sites with the smaller, faster, and more damaging typhoon family. Roll

Honestly, the only reason you're saying the CNR is better than the one you've been flying for five years is because cruise is better than it's been for five years. But cruise isn't just better for the CNR - it's better for everything. The new CNR simply does not have a role.

-Liang


#1 you cannot seperate the Ship from it's primary weapon any more than you can sperate a Nightmare from Tachyons (apologies to you Pulsemare wackos).

#2, no, a typhoon hull can't do some of the things a CNR can do because you need a serious shiled tank to do it

#3. as has been pointed out, you're looking in the wrong direction, the Phoons might need looking at, the CNR is imo (and apprently in CCPs opinion so far) perfectly ok.


A few comments:
- Context matters, and this is why your "fix" is just ********. See, the problem with the CNR is that it's simultaneously outperformed in literally every possible way by the TFI, and occasionally by the Typhoon. If you're willing to put the time and effort into painters, the SNI frequently out performs it as well (though obviously not in the speed/sig area).
- Yes, I agree you can't separate the weapon from the ship. However, that's not what I was talking about - and you should know this. You should know that I was referring to the fact that cruise is on many ships, and those ships obsolete the CNR when fit with cruise. And with torps, but we all knew that.
- Your logic about the CNR being fine in CCP's eyes doesn't hold a lot of water, because obviously the Phoons are fine in CCP's eyes too.

I do love the shifting goalposts though. It's fantastic to see you go from "No the CNR is amazing and ur just a scrub" to "Ok, so maybe [ insert every ship ever ] is OP".

-Liang

Ed: I am curious what those things that the CNR is good at because it requires a serious shield tank to do. :)

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#1204 - 2013-05-22 06:13:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Deerin
Summary of the last 60 pages:
Will try to squeeze things in one sentence for each ship. and try to stay as objective as possible.

Amarr:

Ngeddon:
There were some concerns about huge sig and weird drone bay but it was adressed. Posters are mostly OK with it as it was already in a good spot.

NApoc:
There are concerns about losing its cap bonus. Wheter extra tracking will make up for it or not will remain to be seen

Gallente:

Ndomi:
Posters seem to be glad that it retained its hybrid bonus.

Nthron:
Posters are concerned that it is too close to t1 performance wise.

Minmatar:

Fpest:
Posters believe it suffers from the same problem as its t1 cousin: No Role

FPhoon:
Posters are concerned that it is stepping on too many toes and performing too good on too many roles.

Caldari:

SNI:
Posters seem to be ok with it as it was already in a good spot.

CNR:
Posters believe that losing the damage is not worth the gained application bonus and caused it to lose its roles.

Edit: Posters seem to unanimously agree that CNR needs more CPU.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#1205 - 2013-05-22 06:16:51 UTC
Deerin wrote:
...


Seems legit.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Marco Magnus
Placementcorpii
#1206 - 2013-05-22 07:09:17 UTC
As a long time raven flyer i can suport Liang statement that the CNR is NOT worth flying once compared to the rest of the cruise platforms. There are 2 sides how u must look at the ship , from PVE and PVP perspective . The pve perspective has been very good covered and because of T2 rigor and flare rigs and 2 TP that u can install on a raven it aplies DPS just as good as the CNR so the bonus to explosion radius is kinda lost. Now in the PvP perspective i can see how because one whould use large core defence field extenders and problably no or 1 TP the bonus whould be sensible used against smaller ships . So for pvp can it outshine a raven ( i mean for 400M ) it should to at least somthing better then raven in pvp, what is that?
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#1207 - 2013-05-22 08:32:20 UTC
Can somone put some reference fits here for Fphoon and CNR for comparison?

How do you manage to get away with 3+ BCU's on Fphoon.

Armor tank with fphoon with 3+ bcu's is weak
Shield tank with fphoon leaves no place for painters. (Also shield tank phoon has serious CPU problems)

CNR really struggles to get a workable t2 fit. Needs additional CPU. It is possible to ease things alittle bit by going faction route, but in CNR case it looks like a mandatory practice to make any decent fit.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#1208 - 2013-05-22 09:07:29 UTC
Deerin wrote:
Ngeddon:There were some concerns about huge sig and weird drone bay but it was adressed. Posters are mostly OK with it as it was already in a good spot.

Was being the operative word, question you/we have to ask is how that spot looks after all the others have been buffed. Personally think the NGeddon is somewhat lacking and essentially a carbon copy of the current Armageddon.
What I'd like: Increase RoF bonus to 7.5%, remove gun mount (7 > 6) and move high to mid. Total dps increase negligible .. applied damage much better depending on mods chosen.
Deerin wrote:
Nthron: Posters are concerned that it is too close to t1 performance wise.

It is their own damn fault for complaining so hard that CCP had no choice other than over-buff the T1 Mega .. klaxons should have gone off all over the place the second the idea of adding more lows to a Gallente than comparative Amarr hulls was spawned.

Phoon, post unified bonus, does not step on any toes .. it wears jackboots and is stomping entire feet into bloody pulp .. just sayin' Smile
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1209 - 2013-05-22 09:26:37 UTC
Well, if you're going to step on someone, you should do it properly. :p
Bereza Mia
Trade Federation of EVE
#1210 - 2013-05-22 09:30:42 UTC
After 60+ pages still can't understand why Typhoon FI have so enormously huge bonus.
Why 7.5%? Even with 5% it will outperform any other T1/navy (and maybe even any T2) turret or missile BS.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1211 - 2013-05-22 09:34:59 UTC
Bereza Mia wrote:
After 60+ pages still can't understand why Typhoon FI have so enormously huge bonus.
Why 7.5%? Even with 5% it will outperform any other T1/navy (and maybe even any T2) turret or missile BS.

cause it is matar and we all know ccp are so biased they cant make matar balanced just op
fleet typhoon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cnr

****** balance
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1212 - 2013-05-22 09:41:13 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
Bereza Mia wrote:
After 60+ pages still can't understand why Typhoon FI have so enormously huge bonus.
Why 7.5%? Even with 5% it will outperform any other T1/navy (and maybe even any T2) turret or missile BS.

cause it is matar and we all know ccp are so biased they cant make matar balanced just op
fleet typhoon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cnr

****** balance

This why...

Malcanis wrote:

Fleet Phoon is the "hardmode" ship, where piloting skill and fitting ability will count. The ship is able to apply higher theoretical DPS, but you'll need to work for it, and have a lot of SP invested too.

CNR is going to be the "easymode" ship, where the pilot has to make the least effort and needs the fewest SP to apply this DPS
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1213 - 2013-05-22 09:50:11 UTC
Johnson Oramara wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
Bereza Mia wrote:
After 60+ pages still can't understand why Typhoon FI have so enormously huge bonus.
Why 7.5%? Even with 5% it will outperform any other T1/navy (and maybe even any T2) turret or missile BS.

cause it is matar and we all know ccp are so biased they cant make matar balanced just op
fleet typhoon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cnr

****** balance

This why...

Malcanis wrote:

Fleet Phoon is the "hardmode" ship, where piloting skill and fitting ability will count. The ship is able to apply higher theoretical DPS, but you'll need to work for it, and have a lot of SP invested too.

CNR is going to be the "easymode" ship, where the pilot has to make the least effort and needs the fewest SP to apply this DPS

hardmode?
so a smaller faster ship with utility highs and more drones is hard mode? how? I realy cant see why using a better ship cosidered hardmode
piloting skill wth?

when did sp need started to be part of balance between same class of ships?
so if i have all the sp the typhoon should just outperform cnr?that so dumb
tell me how much more sp needed by the typhoon? huh?
Bereza Mia
Trade Federation of EVE
#1214 - 2013-05-22 09:56:27 UTC
Johnson Oramara wrote:

This why...

Malcanis wrote:

Fleet Phoon is the "hardmode" ship, where piloting skill and fitting ability will count. The ship is able to apply higher theoretical DPS, but you'll need to work for it, and have a lot of SP invested too.

CNR is going to be the "easymode" ship, where the pilot has to make the least effort and needs the fewest SP to apply this DPS


"Hardmode" ship lol.
Give me please more hardmode ships please. Non matar please.

I want invest "a lot of SP" to lasers and do 1700+ dps on amarr ship.
And "a lot of SP" to rails and do 1700+ dps on Rokh.
etc
Lugalzagezi666
#1215 - 2013-05-22 09:59:31 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:

hardmode?
so a smaller faster ship with utility highs and more drones is hard mode? how? I realy cant see why using a better ship cosidered hardmode
piloting skill wth?

when did sp need started to be part of balance between same class of ships?
so if i have all the sp the typhoon should just outperform cnr?that so dumb
tell me how much more sp needed by the typhoon? huh?


Apparently anything more than spamming F1 (for example spamming F1, F2 and F3 at once) is considered "hardmode" by ccp. And since all caldari trained capsuleers are carebears and noobs that dont have skills to spam 3 function keys at once, they get "easymode" ships.

If you want to fly ship where piloting skill counts, you should train minmatar.
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1216 - 2013-05-22 10:09:49 UTC
Bereza Mia wrote:
After 60+ pages still can't understand why Typhoon FI have so enormously huge bonus.
Why 7.5%? Even with 5% it will outperform any other T1/navy (and maybe even any T2) turret or missile BS.


Because you have no secondary bonus.

There is no falloff bonuses, no range/explosion radius/explosion velocity/optimal/missile velocity/tracking bonus.

Just 2 bonuses that you can't use at the same time (not reliably at least).

This is why it got 2 7.5% bonuses.

Except the fact that it can't be AC fitted, the Fleet Typhoon is alright Blink
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1217 - 2013-05-22 10:40:28 UTC
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:

hardmode?
so a smaller faster ship with utility highs and more drones is hard mode? how? I realy cant see why using a better ship cosidered hardmode
piloting skill wth?

when did sp need started to be part of balance between same class of ships?
so if i have all the sp the typhoon should just outperform cnr?that so dumb
tell me how much more sp needed by the typhoon? huh?


Apparently anything more than spamming F1 (for example spamming F1, F2 and F3 at once) is considered "hardmode" by ccp. And since all caldari trained capsuleers are carebears and noobs that dont have skills to spam 3 function keys at once, they get "easymode" ships.

If you want to fly ship where piloting skill counts, you should train minmatar.



he meant hardmode as in fleet typhoon require more charcter skillpoints. But I agree that is not a good excuse for making the CNR so weak. Or to say more precisely, so pingeonholed into a single role where it woudl be useful.

Booth tempest and raven need some SERIOUS love.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Lugalzagezi666
#1218 - 2013-05-22 10:56:24 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
he meant hardmode as in fleet typhoon require more charcter skillpoints.

Really?
Malcanis wrote:
Fleet Phoon is the "hardmode" ship, where piloting skill and fitting ability will count. The ship is able to apply higher theoretical DPS, but you'll need to work for it, and have a lot of SP invested too.

To me it looks like he openly states that tpi was designed for 1337 pvpers while cnr for carebearish caldari noobs.

Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1219 - 2013-05-22 11:02:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Josilin du Guesclin
Bereza Mia wrote:
After 60+ pages still can't understand why Typhoon FI have so enormously huge bonus.
Why 7.5%? Even with 5% it will outperform any other T1/navy (and maybe even any T2) turret or missile BS.

Because at +5% turret RoF and +5% missile damage it would have the equivalent of 8 turrets and 2.25 launchers or 7.5 missile launchers (plus 2.67 guns that will get no bonuses from modules)

NGeddon: 9.333 turrets. 1 utility high
NApoc: 8 turrets (with optimal and tracking hull bonuses). 0 utility

CNR: 8 launchers (with range and damage application bonuses). 0 utility
SNI: 8 launchers. 1 utility

NMega: 9.333 turrets (with tracking bonus). 1 utility
NDomi: 8 turrets (and drone DPS bonus). 0 utility

'Pest FI: 10 turrets. 2 utility
'Phoon FI: 9.6 turrets & 2.75 launchers or 8.25 launchers & 3.2 turrets. 0 utility <- actual Odyssey

With only +5/+5% the 'Phoon FI would remain a weak choice, because it would have fewer fully bonused effective launchers than every other faction BS, and no bonuses to damage application either. As it is, it's pretty strong but if we assume two Tech II DPS mods on each ship (Gyros, etc.), the effective number of turrets/launchers is:

NGeddon: 13.7 turrets.
NApoc: 11.8 turrets (with optimal and tracking hull bonuses)

CNR: 11.8 launchers (with range and damage application bonuses)
SNI: 11.8 launchers

NMega: 13.7 turrets (with tracking bonus)
NDomi: 11.8 turrets (and drone DPS bonus)

'Pest FI: 14.7 turrets
'Phoon FI: 14.1 turrets & 2.75 launchers (16.85 total) or 12.1 launchers & 3.2 turrets (15.3 total). <- actual Odyssey

'Phoon FI: 11.8 turrets & 2.75 launchers (14.55 total) or 11.0 launchers & 3.2 turrets (14.2 total). <- your suggested

The SNI and NDomi have an extra low or mid slot compared to all the rest.

When you look at this, the planned 'Phoon FI is very much the winner in raw paper DPS as long as all highs are filled with weapons. If they are not, it's middling but lacking other interesting ship bonuses. With your suggestion, it's high but not super at the cost of all utility, and is balls if the 'extra' highs are used for utility. The more modules are used for DPS, the better all the other ships look, too.

While the current bonuses may be a little high, your suggested ones stink - and a quick comparison of your suggested 'Phoon FI with the Tempest FI shows it clearly - effectively a single bonus and modules only apply to six rather than eight of the weapons.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#1220 - 2013-05-22 11:02:53 UTC
EXIA MIKOSZ wrote:

First where im defending CNR???I just wrote example how this changes apply to setup like this.
What im doing its defending My Choice of Ship and his setup
Maybe some ships and setups are much much better and less expensive but im using what i like
Second where you see in my setup Officer Modules?All i can see its a deadspace
Next Time i will use t2 modules for comparing so that will be easier for you


o_O

My understanding of the english language might not be at the top nodge of... well, anything. But I do believe the following sentences of Yours might very well be counted as a defense of the latest CNR changes.

EXIA MIKOSZ wrote:
In the End im loosing 15% explosion velocity Bonus from Rig,0.42 sRof and almost 12m sig radious from changes
Thats Nothing with that amount of boosted DPS


And Yes, use either T1 Meta 4 or T2 Modules for Your basic examples and/or comparisons. Deadspace Modules Officer Fits, Facton modules... That's all bullshit. A good fit or a good ship is not made by the amount of ISK You throw at it but by how You fit it for which purpose.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.