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Dev Blog: Reinventing the Radial Menu for Odyssey

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Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#81 - 2013-05-21 20:58:12 UTC
CCP Sharq wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Touch screen interface incoming! I can't wait.

EDIT: And why is "To Captain's Quarters" an option on the right-click menu for a ship in your hangar? Unless it does something awesome like drop the Rifter in your CQ? It might be worth revisiting those menus...


That could be a bonus we get out of this! but not our first priority when we started this project.


You guys are so cute when you're being coy.

Unifex just moved over to the mobile division, and you're trying to tell me that developing a touch screen interface is just a happy coincidence? Lol

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Darirol
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#82 - 2013-05-21 21:03:06 UTC
1. primary action for a ship in space should be lock it
except for switching supercapital pilots in a super/titan i cant remember a single case where i encountered a situation where i want to board a ship.

2. i have not tested it, but it should also work for watchlist and broadcast window. (locking goes fast with ctrl click, but for align/warp orbit stuff it would probably nice)
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#83 - 2013-05-21 21:37:55 UTC
Dirk Space wrote:
[quote=CCP karkur]I am open-minded enough to give it a go but if I don't like it, if it ruins my eve experience like the integrated inventory did, what then?


Just checking... you do know that nothing but the old radial menu gets messed with?
So if you prefer right-click menu, just continue using that - it is staying!

Unless you had some particular love for the old radial menu - which is imho vastly inferior - i don't see how this could be a turn for the worse...
CCP Sharq
C C P
C C P Alliance
#84 - 2013-05-21 21:44:33 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Sharq
Darirol wrote:
1. primary action for a ship in space should be lock it
except for switching supercapital pilots in a super/titan i cant remember a single case where i encountered a situation where i want to board a ship.

2. i have not tested it, but it should also work for watchlist and broadcast window. (locking goes fast with ctrl click, but for align/warp orbit stuff it would probably nice)


We started the design by having lock as primary action for ships. The problem with that is that locking becomes inconsistent when locking other stuff tha have different actions attached as primary. So this is what we did. Lock is always in the same place no matter what you are locking.

EVE UI Designer | Team Psycho Sisters | @CCP_Sharq
Captain Semper
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#85 - 2013-05-21 21:55:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Semper
CCP, i will be realy greatful if you will make hotkey for radial menu and it will open instantly (w/o delay with LCM press on for a moment).
For example alt+LCM (or other combination, make it custom option) on brecet, object in overview or other condition when radial menu appears.
So alt+LCM and we "summon" (have no idea how to say :) ) radial menu.
CCP karkur
C C P
C C P Alliance
#86 - 2013-05-21 22:06:19 UTC
Captain Semper wrote:
CCP, i will be realy greatful if you will make hotkey for radial menu and it will open instantly (w/o delay with LCM press on for a moment).
For example alt+LCM (or other combination, make it custom option) on brecet, object in overview or other condition when radial menu appears.
So alt+LCM and we "summon" (have no idea how to say :) ) radial menu.

ok we'll do it... and we are done.... wow, that was easy Smile
The shortcut is set in the ESC menu, under "General"
(ok, I'll admit that I had already implemented it like that P)

CCP karkur | Programmer | Team Five 0 | @CCP_karkur
Captain Semper
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#87 - 2013-05-21 22:12:38 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
Captain Semper wrote:
CCP, i will be realy greatful if you will make hotkey for radial menu and it will open instantly (w/o delay with LCM press on for a moment).
For example alt+LCM (or other combination, make it custom option) on brecet, object in overview or other condition when radial menu appears.
So alt+LCM and we "summon" (have no idea how to say :) ) radial menu.

ok we'll do it... and we are done.... wow, that was easy Smile
The shortcut is set in the ESC menu, under "General"
(ok, I'll admit that I had already implemented it like that P)

Oh... feel myself like a kid :)

Thx!
Draqone an'Alreigh
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2013-05-21 22:16:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Draqone an'Alreigh
Radial menu.

MAKE. IT. SELL. STUFF.

Seriously. Also, allow us to add custom options to it and move the buttons around. A fully customisable radial menu - I can see it being useful.

Inducing the proliferation of common sense throughout EVE Official forums since April 27th, 2013.
Sturmwolke
#89 - 2013-05-21 22:25:54 UTC
Problem here is that you also use left-click for navigation. One of the biggest reason why I don't use the current radial is due to this, and also due to the delayed effect.
It was more covenient with the right click.

Too many things can go wrong when you have BOTH navigation and radial menu activated with the left-click.
Solve this.

Also consider having an option for players to swap radial menu activation from left click to middle or right mouse buttons if it doesn't interfere with the traditional right click context.
Fitz Muller
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#90 - 2013-05-21 22:28:03 UTC
Hey CCP

Can we please please please get an option to turn it off altogether. I'm sure what you are doing to improve it is great but I spent almost all of my time flying with the tactical overly up and zoomed so I can see a range of about 60km in all directions, I am forever turning the camera and accidentally bringing up the radial menu on an item I can't even see and getting the show info window pop up or have the ship tell me it is alligning and I have to stop and then reposition etc.

Thanks
Fitz
Tlat Ij
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#91 - 2013-05-21 23:18:52 UTC
devblog wrote:
In fact the radial menu UI pattern is going through a bit of a renaissance these days due to touch screen interfaces and it is becoming the weapon of choice for many UI developers both for touch and mouse input interfaces.

The reason radial menus and the like are being used on touch-based interfaces is because touching the right menu item is hard, and because the device can't tell the difference between a "left-click touch" and a "right-click touch" so it just gives you a menu that's easy to touch the option you want. However, touch based UI on a non-touch program is really, really stupid! (see: windows 8) EVE is not a game that can easily be played on a touch screen, if you want to change that fine, but keep the touch-based UI and the mouse+keyboard UI separate, because the two should not be mixed because that results in a ****** UI. Now to be fair, the r-click menu isn't the most user friendly menu in existence, but that has more to do with the bad item placement (reprocess being next to "strip fitting" and "change name" for ships, trash being next to reprocess for items etc.), and the lack of delay in opening a submenu making it hard to select the right submenu if your hands are not completely steady than the fact that it is a list.

CCP karkur wrote:
It's not going to be "optional", but will be able to map it to a different mouse button, and change the delay so you can kind of disable it yourself... but I hope you do give it a chance for at least 1 day Smile

So I can bind it to something like "g" or "y" and never see it? The only time I ever see the radial menu currently is when I want to move the camera and somehow manage to click on a bracket and then I get distracted by this menu and being distracted in eve is not a good thing.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#92 - 2013-05-21 23:25:10 UTC
Quote:
...In fact the radial menu UI pattern is going through a bit of a renaissance these days due to touch screen interfaces and it is becoming the weapon of choice for many UI developers both for touch and mouse input interfaces. This fitted perfectly to the plan; We had found our silver bullet.

It makes absolutely no sense for a touch interface where you do not have a cursor that needs to traverse any distance, where it is being explored is for smartphones where a half radial menu just entered service to make one-handed thumb operation less of a strain.
It makes as little sense for a mouse/keyboard setup as cursor traversal from side-to-side can be near instantaneous while keeping fine control, especially with newer mice where sensitivity can be controlled on the fly. And that isn't even taking into account that one has access to the entire alphabet on side, making context browsing maddening fast.

It does make sense on consoles with their silly stick controllers, where fine control is only available to the ADHD population so cursor movement can get problematic .. it is why most games released these days has those intrusive radials everywhere, cross platform development and lazy developers.

Are you lazy? Big smile

By all means, add it to Dust but add it only as an option at most in EvE .. if you really wanted to optimize menu use then allow us to shuffle/add/remove entries on the various lists and allow for keyboard to be used for selection when a menu/context is open.

Keep up the good work, UI is as ever important, just take care not to force it on people .. best thing about the Mouse3 radial in game now is that it can be deactivated through options and would hate to see what happens if something similar is tied the second most used (F1 has it beat) button in Eve .. left mouse radial .. *shudder*Smile
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2013-05-21 23:44:14 UTC
this is a fantastic feature, i fell in love about 12 seconds after finding it on the test server

gonna take a few days to get muscle memory on track, but it will be well worth adapting
Darirol
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#94 - 2013-05-21 23:57:20 UTC
CCP Sharq wrote:
Darirol wrote:
1. primary action for a ship in space should be lock it
except for switching supercapital pilots in a super/titan i cant remember a single case where i encountered a situation where i want to board a ship.


We started the design by having lock as primary action for ships. The problem with that is that locking becomes inconsistent when locking other stuff tha have different actions attached as primary. So this is what we did. Lock is always in the same place no matter what you are locking.


ok makes sense from that point of view
Lost True
Perkone
Caldari State
#95 - 2013-05-22 00:28:28 UTC
A constructive comment:

I liked the old radial menu, used it a lot.

The last time i were on the test server, the new radial menu looked for me a bit laggy. Maybe it's was just me. But please add a checkbox to disable a mouse "aim assist" for it. I never had a problems with pointing in the old "small" menu, so this thing may be a bit annoying...

in 2007 i've thought it's a sci-fi simulator, not an "e-sports" game. I'm not a teenager, how would i like it much?
Dalilus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2013-05-22 00:51:10 UTC
CCP, why don't you start charging for all these free expansions? those of us that don't wanna relearn (meaning we don't have the time) how to play EVE every 6 months would probably still be using the quantum rise version or thereabouts.
ZhaoMin
Tennyson Court
#97 - 2013-05-22 01:29:05 UTC
Hi,

Somebody already mentioned vaguely on the idea, but would you take in a concept which I've just drawn up and see if that would suit gamers better?

The numbers on the captions denotes shortcut keys FYI, I believe that would make it more consistent and suit most gamers regardless of platform and suits Eve's futuristic theme. As well as it re-implements the WASD keys for the radial menu functions so to please the wider MMO crowds who doesn't like Eve the moment they see no effectively meaningful (subjective to individuals of course) WASD implementation on the UI.

would I get awarded with something if this is a idea you considers "good"? :P

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_xr-qmX_9pbVF9VajF4OUdsS2M/edit?usp=sharing
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#98 - 2013-05-22 01:40:58 UTC
Fitz Muller wrote:
Hey CCP

Can we please please please get an option to turn it off altogether. I'm sure what you are doing to improve it is great but I spent almost all of my time flying with the tactical overly up and zoomed so I can see a range of about 60km in all directions, I am forever turning the camera and accidentally bringing up the radial menu on an item I can't even see and getting the show info window pop up or have the ship tell me it is alligning and I have to stop and then reposition etc.

Thanks
Fitz

You already are getting this option, it's been addressed several times. Just turn the delay way up and you'll probably never notice.


Anyway, I think the new radial menu is an overall excellent addition. I've been using it a lot on Singularity. I turned the old one off because I thought it was awful, but I really enjoy this one.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#99 - 2013-05-22 01:56:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Terrorfrodo
Dev Blog wrote:
Navigation options are placed on the 45 degree axis; Align, Warp To, Keep at Range and Orbit. The range of these options depends on the distance of the mouse pointer from the center of the menu. So all ranges can be set in a single motion, their placement is deliberate to minimize errors.

OMG this is awesome. Just tried it on Sisi and being able to set varying orbits, ranges or warp-to distances with a simple gesture is truly a new and great feature because until now with the right-click this takes considerably longer and it's easy to misclick and lose the menu when under pressure in pvp.

Having never used the old radial menu I will need to force myself to use the new one, but once I get accustomed to it I think it will be a real improvement for me, so thanks to the dev team :)

As a minor suggestion I think that capping the orbit range at 30 km is a bit too little, with logistics or ewar boats it sometime makes sense to keep ranges of up to 70 km. I think the gestures should go at least up to 50. (Ideally it should increase only by small amounts at first like it does now and then in larger steps of 2 or 5 km when you make a very strong gesture.)

.
Huang Mo
Tianxia Inc
#100 - 2013-05-22 02:07:58 UTC
It seems the most requested feature is the ability to turn the radial menu completely off.

Radial menus may look pretty, but if they were good UI design they would have been deployed in a lot of other applications. They are not. In fact, EVE is the only application I can think of that use radial menus.