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1500 DPS Odyssey Typhoon Fleet Issue versus CNR... And 1428 of that 1500 is applied DPS...

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stoicfaux
#1 - 2013-05-21 03:53:18 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
The Odyssey Typhoon Fleet Issue (TFI) can pump out 1500 raw DPS in a combination of Drones, Missiles and guns. Which raises the following questions:
1) Can I have sex with it?
2) How much of that 1500 DPS can actually be *applied*?
3) Although the TFI is primarily a missile boat, can I swap rigor/flare rigs for TPs because TPs would boost all three weapons systems (missiles, drones, and guns.)
4) Does the TFI dethrone the CNR?
5) How long do I have to wait for an answer to question number 1?

I downloaded the Odyssey EFT files, created a few Angel-like ships to shoot at (similar sig size and speed) and loaded several fits into EFT's DPS chart to see what the applied damage looks like.

Generally speaking, all fits focus on Cruise Missiles and Sentry damage. Shield tanks are used to free up the lows for CN BCUs and DDAs. With so much DPS, a bare minimum anti-Angel tank (400 tank) was chosen with at least 5 minutes of tank. No implants, no fitting implants. The actual fits are in the following post.

Summary of Fits:
* Red - TFI "No Rigors"- The idea here was to use rigs shield resists instead of shield hardeners in order to add more TPs in the mids. Unlike rigors/flares which affect just missiles, TPs would boost the TFI's missiles, drones, and guns.
* Green - "TFI Drones" - Given the signficant drone DPS, the plan is mount Omnis in place of TPs to help with drone tracking and range.
* Light Blue - "TFI Basic" - A conservative setup with two TPs, i.e. we focus first on applied missile DPS.
* Dark Blue - "CNR Cruise" - The benchmark. Cruise missiles, two TPs and 3 sentries.
* Purple - "SNI Cruise" - With 8 mids and a tank bonus, we can easily slap 4 TPs on this bird, err, insect, err arachnid.
* Yellow - "Golem Cruise" - Will a huge TP bonus and 4 TPs allow it to dominate?

The DPS charts are available here: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B_CLlTV8bSxNOXJjbTZTa2VTbkU&usp=sharing
The DPS numbers below are just at 25.3km as a convenience to help tell the lines apart.

Versus Gist General: 320m sig, 175m/s
* Light Blue - TFI Basic (1428 DPS)
* Red - TFI No Rigors (1319 DPS)
* Green - TFI Drones XLSB (1206 DPS)
* Dark Blue - CNR Cruise (1120 DPS)
* Purple - SNI Cruise (1033 DPS)
* Yellow - Golem Cruise (1018 DPS)

Versus Gistais Tribunus 241m sig 200m/s
* Light Blue - TFI Basic (1288 DPS)
* Dark Blue - CNR Cruise (1117 DPS)
* Red - TFI No Rigors (1054 DPS)
* Purple - SNI Cruise (1031 DPS)
* Yellow - Golem Cruise (1018 DPS)
* Green - TFI Drones XLSB (967 DPS)

Versus Arch Gistum Centurion 150m sig 200 m/s
* Yellow - Golem (1016 DPS)
* Light Blue - TFI Basic (1016 DPS)
* Red - TFI No Rigors (867 DPS)
* Dark Blue - CNR Cruise (878 DPS)
* Purple - SNI Cruise (800 DPS)
* Green - TFI Drones XLSB (781 DPS)

Versus Mercenary Commander
* Yellow - Golem (923 DPS)
* Light Blue - TFI Basic (903 DPS)
* Red - TFI No Rigors (793 DPS)
* Dark Blue - CNR Cruise (759 DPS)
* Green - TFI Drones XLSb (698 DPS)
* Purple - SNI Crise (682 DPS)


Results Summary:
Teh TFI Basic (Light Blue) is just obnoxious against BS and BC sized targets at short range. Against cruisers it still cranks out the DPS but along an odd curve. (You'll probably want to switch to T1 missiles against cruisers.)
The TFI No Rigor (Red) can pump out high DPs against battleships at short range. Even against cruisers at short range it makes a very good showing, but suffers at long range from the lack of rigor/flare rigs.
The TFI Drone XLSB (Green), which traded TPs for Omnis, was lackluster against smaller ships, but did quite well against the battleship. The lack of TPs really hurts its long range missile DPS. Not a bad choice, but not a very good one either.
The CNR (Dark Blue) is very consistent, staying in the mid to upper range of the pack. It's much better at long ranges than the TFI.
The SNI (Purple) tended to perform at the middle to low end of the spectrum. Its 4 TPs didn't provide a signficant advantage.
The Golem (Yellow) dominated against cruiser sized targets at all ranges due to its TP bonus. Unfortuntely, the lack of raw DPS hurt it against the BC and BS targets.

The monstrous DPS of the TFI Basic just screams psychopathic rage of destruction against Angels, from cruisers to battleships, but only at realtively short range (<40km). Thus the answer to #1 is "Yes! Yes! Yes!." However, if you're a cautious prude, the CNR is an all around consistent performer, from short to long range and is a good choice.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
stoicfaux
#2 - 2013-05-21 03:53:45 UTC
############################################################
[Typhoon Fleet Issue, no rigors]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Damage Control II

Dread Guristas X-Large Shield Booster
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L

Large Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer II
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II
Large Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer II


Garde II x5


############################################################
[Typhoon Fleet Issue, drones XLSB]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Co-Processor II

Dread Guristas X-Large Shield Booster
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Cruise Missile
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst II


Garde II x5


############################################################
[Typhoon Fleet Issue, basic]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Co-Processor II

Dread Guristas X-Large Shield Booster
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst II


Garde II x5


############################################################
[Raven Navy Issue, Odyssey]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Dread Guristas X-Large Shield Booster
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst II


Garde II x3


############################################################
[Scorpion Navy Issue, Cruise]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
Explosive Deflection Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst II


Garde II x2


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
stoicfaux
#3 - 2013-05-21 03:53:59 UTC
############################################################
[Golem, Odyssey Cruise]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Dread Guristas X-Large Shield Booster
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Cruise Missile
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II


Garde II x2

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#4 - 2013-05-21 04:37:54 UTC
meh. even if you could always apply all that damage, managing three semi-main weapon systems (one of which constantly draws aggro) while juggling painters is too much of a hassle.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Lugalzagezi666
#5 - 2013-05-21 07:28:14 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
...

Havent you heard? If cnr had damage bonus, it would be absolutely overpowered, but that apparently doesnt apply to winmatar boats.

Daniel Plain wrote:
meh. even if you could always apply all that damage, managing three semi-main weapon systems (one of which constantly draws aggro) while juggling painters is too much of a hassle.

True that, but you wont really use autocannons anyway and npcs dont agro sentry drones that much when they are spammed by 1000+ missile dps and 2 target painters.

And imagine what tfi and even vanilla phoon will be capable of in pvp... compared to crap raven and cnr.
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
#6 - 2013-05-21 08:05:06 UTC
+1 because anyone who fits Mission ships for maximum carnage (minimum tank) is doing it RIGHT!!

The Operative: "There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: "You have no idea how true that is".
Jill Antaris
Jill's Open Incursion Corp
#7 - 2013-05-21 10:06:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Antaris
Thx for the numbers.

While you absolutely need the painters to push the numbers, the TFI might be better off with a 15km web instead of a 2/3 TP in minmatar space, since it improves sentry and turret performance, what is a major part of her dps, the most at ranges that angels prefer. From my experience with rail/sentry platforms, it is hard to get full dps with them, since you need to chose between tracking/range for drones or turrets. One of the systems will suffer by the lack of range or tracking when it comes to applied dps most of the time. The only exception might be a Kronos/Paladin, that covers this problem with a 90% web, allowing the sentry drones to hit for full damage at ranges where tracking becomes a major issue with them.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#8 - 2013-05-21 14:00:23 UTC
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
meh. even if you could always apply all that damage, managing three semi-main weapon systems (one of which constantly draws aggro) while juggling painters is too much of a hassle.

True that, but you wont really use autocannons anyway and npcs dont agro sentry drones that much when they are spammed by 1000+ missile dps and 2 target painters.

And imagine what tfi and even vanilla phoon will be capable of in pvp... compared to crap raven and cnr.

1. if you are not using the autocannons, why put them there and use them to tip the dps scale?
2. this topic is not about pvp. frankly, if we are talking pvp, a passive buffer SNI will probably destroy the fleet phoon any day of the week.

I should buy an Ishtar.
stoicfaux
#9 - 2013-05-21 16:39:52 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
meh. even if you could always apply all that damage, managing three semi-main weapon systems (one of which constantly draws aggro) while juggling painters is too much of a hassle.

If it is a hassale, then drop a DDA for a 4th BCU and have the same firepower as a CNR with the advantage of applying extra dps when it is convenient.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#10 - 2013-05-21 17:30:01 UTC
Luckily all rats appear within unbonused torp range and then stay still so that they don't cause any gun/sentry tracking issues at that range. Considerate of them, I call it.

Yeah no seriously though, I have a HAM Tengu with ~31Km effective range, and I find that can be limiting on a ship with the agility of a cruiser, never mind the ~17-18 or so on unbonused torps.

However, I don't wish to interrupt the pleasure that people get from stroking off to EFT numbers - I enjoy it myself on occasion - so by all means do continue.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
OfBalance
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-05-21 17:49:36 UTC
I have to concur with the EFT critics.

Although I will confirm the 'phoon is a worthy phallic object of your sexual desires.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#12 - 2013-05-21 19:26:02 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Yeah no seriously though, I have a HAM Tengu with ~31Km effective range, and I find that can be limiting on a ship with the agility of a cruiser, never mind the ~17-18 or so on unbonused torps.


The Thread is about CMs not torps Malc, you know damage changed on them and they are very close to torp numbers now. Lol

Actually a mwd fitted golem is quicker on his feet than a AB HAM Tengu, especially if you have some speed imps and a guy I did some missions with while we waited for the next Incursion to spawn was literally banging his head on his desk as I burned away from him, being all *smug* with my 60km Torp range. P

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Klymer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2013-05-21 20:54:54 UTC
Shouldn't this be in S&M?
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-05-21 21:33:32 UTC
Is this where I say 'I knew it!!!' Smile

Good stuff, Mr Fox, good stuff!
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-05-21 21:42:35 UTC
Klymer wrote:
Shouldn't this be in S&M?


Why? Cause he wants to have sex with it?

Art of Explosions
stoicfaux
#16 - 2013-05-21 22:33:05 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Luckily all rats appear within unbonused torp range and then stay still so that they don't cause any gun/sentry tracking issues at that range. Considerate of them, I call it.

Yeah no seriously though, I have a HAM Tengu with ~31Km effective range, and I find that can be limiting on a ship with the agility of a cruiser, never mind the ~17-18 or so on unbonused torps.

However, I don't wish to interrupt the pleasure that people get from stroking off to EFT numbers - I enjoy it myself on occasion - so by all means do continue.

Mal,
A bit of friendly advice. You're on the CSM now. That means you're a diplomat and your reputation is at stake with every single little thing you say or don't say, and how you say/not say it. Whenever you feel the urge to rip on something, stop, take a deep breath and stop automatically assuming that other people are complete idiots. This will help prevent you from saying something "sharp/witty" that makes you look stupid.

You have probably figured out by now that we're talking about Cruise Missiles and not Torps. Which is fine, we all jump to conclusions or make premature assumptions sometimes.

If you didn't read my post and just assuming that I was EFT whoring, then shame on you. People don't make long posts, post stats, and graphs without having a modicrum of intelligence.

If you read/skimmed my post and somehow came away with the idea I was EFT whoring, then that means you may not be aware of how EFT's DPS graph works. If you already know about the DPS chart, then never mind. Otherwise, you will be pleased to learn that the DPS chart takes speed, sig size, falloff, transveral, etc., into account. It's a very useful tool that can useful for analyzing min-maxing, balancing, etc., which may be relevant to your CSM position.


Again, you're a CSM rep, it's a high profile and important position, so please try to adopt a positive, less cynical perspective and let us to help you to help Eve.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Arec Bardwin
#17 - 2013-05-21 22:39:38 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Klymer wrote:
Shouldn't this be in S&M?


Why? Cause he wants to have sex with it?
No, it's because op must really enjoy pain to have been able to crunch those numbers. Not to mention the pain of actually flying the ships in tedious L4s.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#18 - 2013-05-21 22:58:16 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
It is not a big issue, once you look for better results, you often enough end up with a calculator and eft in eve.

The game is literally a massive amount of math, if you can do it, you can rig it your advantage.

Using the ships in a few L4 for a praxis test to confirm the performance is no issue at all, at least for people that actually want to optimize things, instead of relaying on 2. hand input. That is the main difference between people that adopting and people that are improving her game play. Smile

I would be grateful to stoicfaux for sharing his analysis, saving you the time for doing it.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Signal11th
#19 - 2013-05-22 11:55:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Signal11th
stoicfaux wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Luckily all rats appear within unbonused torp range and then stay still so that they don't cause any gun/sentry tracking issues at that range. Considerate of them, I call it.

Yeah no seriously though, I have a HAM Tengu with ~31Km effective range, and I find that can be limiting on a ship with the agility of a cruiser, never mind the ~17-18 or so on unbonused torps.

However, I don't wish to interrupt the pleasure that people get from stroking off to EFT numbers - I enjoy it myself on occasion - so by all means do continue.

Mal,
A bit of friendly advice. You're on the CSM now. That means you're a diplomat and your reputation is at stake with every single little thing you say or don't say, and how you say/not say it. Whenever you feel the urge to rip on something, stop, take a deep breath and stop automatically assuming that other people are complete idiots. This will help prevent you from saying something "sharp/witty" that makes you look stupid.

You have probably figured out by now that we're talking about Cruise Missiles and not Torps. Which is fine, we all jump to conclusions or make premature assumptions sometimes.

If you didn't read my post and just assuming that I was EFT whoring, then shame on you. People don't make long posts, post stats, and graphs without having a modicrum of intelligence.

If you read/skimmed my post and somehow came away with the idea I was EFT whoring, then that means you may not be aware of how EFT's DPS graph works. If you already know about the DPS chart, then never mind. Otherwise, you will be pleased to learn that the DPS chart takes speed, sig size, falloff, transveral, etc., into account. It's a very useful tool that can useful for analyzing min-maxing, balancing, etc., which may be relevant to your CSM position.


Again, you're a CSM rep, it's a high profile and important position, so please try to adopt a positive, less cynical perspective and let us to help you to help Eve.




lol be careful what you wish for Malcanis, Now your a "CSM" member your usual witty sharp replies are now just things for people to vent about all because of three little letters.

Personally vent as much as you want I'm sure you will survive the forum warriors.

Personally anybody who says they want to "have sex" with something that isn't real, really needs to take a look at themselves even if it was said in jest.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
Arkadelphia
Unforetold Mania
#20 - 2013-05-22 12:32:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Arkadelphia
As others have said....or tried to suggest..this won't work.
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