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[Odyssey] Navy Battleships

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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#1121 - 2013-05-21 04:48:52 UTC
drake duka wrote:

Explosion radius is HUGE for a torp boat, it isn't being "pigeon holed" as a cruise boat imo. It is now way stronger as a cruise boat for obvious reasons and as for torps, explosion radius+range is immensely useful. Even at 100km the old cruises took quite a while to reach their target. I agree that the range bonus is superfluous on a cruise boat but the bonuses are perfect for torps in any real pvp situation. The only time the old cnr would be a better torp boat is if you're running missions so you are able to fit t2 rigors and exp radius implants, otherwise the new cnr is much better most of the time (and you get another med).

CNR will be THE ONLY ship with explosion radius bonus (which again is much better than exp velocity). And yes the typhoon will be OP but I was saying you don't have to deal with the pest fleet issue, also the scorp navy will be a much better shield fleet ship than phoon.

Yeah it got a 9% dps nerf for 30% cruise buff, seems kinda fair to me. Would you really trade 9% dps for 25% exp radius and an extra med slot?


I know exactly what you're saying, but unfortunately it just doesn't pan out in practice. The ~17% DPS nerf is just too great for the relatively minor damage application bonus to really come into play. Against a small and fast BS like the new Phoon, the old CNR applies significantly more damage. Even against truly small and exceedingly rare targets like an AB Sacrilege, the new CNR only has a 12% DPS advantage.

So the net result of what we're seeing regarding torp CNR fits is a utility high and a 17% DPS nerf traded for an extra mid and enough damage application that the new CNR might maintain the same DPS as the old one. Again, the new CNR is just outright nerfed compared to the old one.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#1122 - 2013-05-21 04:59:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Hagika
Liang Nuren wrote:
drake duka wrote:

Explosion radius is HUGE for a torp boat, it isn't being "pigeon holed" as a cruise boat imo. It is now way stronger as a cruise boat for obvious reasons and as for torps, explosion radius+range is immensely useful. Even at 100km the old cruises took quite a while to reach their target. I agree that the range bonus is superfluous on a cruise boat but the bonuses are perfect for torps in any real pvp situation. The only time the old cnr would be a better torp boat is if you're running missions so you are able to fit t2 rigors and exp radius implants, otherwise the new cnr is much better most of the time (and you get another med).

CNR will be THE ONLY ship with explosion radius bonus (which again is much better than exp velocity). And yes the typhoon will be OP but I was saying you don't have to deal with the pest fleet issue, also the scorp navy will be a much better shield fleet ship than phoon.

Yeah it got a 9% dps nerf for 30% cruise buff, seems kinda fair to me. Would you really trade 9% dps for 25% exp radius and an extra med slot?


I know exactly what you're saying, but unfortunately it just doesn't pan out in practice. The ~17% DPS nerf is just too great for the relatively minor damage application bonus to really come into play. Against a small and fast BS like the new Phoon, the old CNR applies significantly more damage. Even against truly small and exceedingly rare targets like an AB Sacrilege, the new CNR only has a 12% DPS advantage.

So the net result of what we're seeing regarding torp CNR fits is a utility high and a 17% DPS nerf traded for an extra mid and enough damage application that the new CNR might maintain the same DPS as the old one. Again, the new CNR is just outright nerfed compared to the old one.

-Liang


I wouldnt mind a change where missile alpha actually beats arty alpha considering missiles have travel time. I think it would make sense for them too and use torps as the short range high dps weapon as it is now. Just needs to apply damage better and rage needs to be usable on battleship sized ships and being superior damage to the faction ones.

Though apparently that would be unfair because caldari cant be allowed to use its T2 BS ammo on anything but structures and caps, yet other races can use their T2 ammo on smaller ships.

Edit- I could live with the Phoon being higher dps with missiles if the Raven alpha made up for it like the difference between auto and arty.

Would challenge the Mael and Abaddon alpha fleets, provided the regular Raven was changed in a similar way.


RAVEN NAVY ISSUE


Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+10% bonus to Torpedo and Cruise Missile explosion radius
+10% Bonus to Cruise damage per level

Slot layout: 8H, 7M(+1), 5L; 0 turrets , 7 launchers

Fittings: 12000 PWG(+1075), 800 CPU(+65)

Defense (shields / armor / hull): 12000(+750) / 8000(-1961) / 9500(-461)

Capacitor (amount / recharge rate): 5900(+587.5) / 1150s(-4.875s)

Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 123(+29) / .12(-.008) / 97300000(-2000000) / 16.19s(-1.43s)

Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 50 <~~~~~~~ Changes to small drone use only. does reduce dps a bit.

Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km / 105(-1.25) / 7

Sensor strength: 28 Gravimetric(+.5)

Signature radius: 400(-60)


Those are my changes and this is the original change by CCP below. Or could add the 8th launcher and drop the damage bonus a little bit.


Running on 3 hours of sleep in last 2 days, if I have the math correct with no BCS on the lows.

7581 alpha with fury cruise.

6226 faction cruise

5415 with Precision

This is after the cruise buff and 7 launchers on the CNR with the 10% bonus damage per level.

Though they would have to increase the duration of cruise launchers to similar rate of Arts.


RAVEN NAVY ISSUE


Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% bonus to Torpedo and Cruise Missile explosion radius
+10% bonus to Cruise Missile Torpedo Velocity

Slot layout: 8H, 7M(+1), 5L; 0 turrets , 8 launchers(+1)
Fittings: 12000 PWG(+1075), 780 CPU(+45)
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 10500(-750) / 8000(-1961) / 9500(-461)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate): 5900(+587.5) / 1150s(-4.875s)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 123(+29) / .12(-.008) / 97300000(-2000000) / 16.19s(-1.43s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 100
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km / 105(-1.25) / 7
Sensor strength: 28 Gravimetric(+.5)
Signature radius: 410(-50)
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#1123 - 2013-05-21 06:20:25 UTC
Hagika wrote:

Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+10% bonus to Torpedo and Cruise Missile explosion radius
+10% Bonus to Cruise and Torpedo damage per level


....and you really believe this wouldn't be overpowered??? 10% bonus to exp radius???? 10% to damage!!!!

...and you expect people to take you serious after posting this????????

Liang, I'm reading you but I'm not really understanding. For years the main "issue" with missiles was the damage application. Are you saying now that this actually wasn't true?

This new CNR does deliver the damage quite swiftly and has a very nice damage application bonus. I see good use for it in PvP, where fitting damage application modules (painters, rigors) is considered subpar to survivability modules (i.e. tank, resists). One web and you'll be applying full torp damage to battlecruisers and up.

Back to matari:

Fphoon apparently obsolotes Fpest on Fpests intended role. At least Fpest has its armor alpha niche. But for general use Fphoon seems to be outclassing it. There needs to be some distinction:

For Pest: Get the dmg bonus part to 7.5% per level. I hate to see it outalphaed by maelstorms and abaddons. It is a 10% damage increase (and only 3% more than a regular mael) in total, which is something FPest needs to differentiate from regular pest.

For Phoon: Keep it in its orginal shape 8 4 8. 5/5 turrets/launchers keep new bonuses. Phoon was always about utility. Lets keep its nature on the fleet version.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#1124 - 2013-05-21 06:23:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Hagika
See above, finished editing.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#1125 - 2013-05-21 06:28:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Hagika
Deerin wrote:
Hagika wrote:

Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+10% bonus to Torpedo and Cruise Missile explosion radius
+10% Bonus to Cruise and Torpedo damage per level


....and you really believe this wouldn't be overpowered??? 10% bonus to exp radius???? 10% to damage!!!!

...and you expect people to take you serious after posting this????????

Liang, I'm reading you but I'm not really understanding. For years the main "issue" with missiles was the damage application. Are you saying now that this actually wasn't true?

This new CNR does deliver the damage quite swiftly and has a very nice damage application bonus. I see good use for it in PvP, where fitting damage application modules (painters, rigors) is considered subpar to survivability modules (i.e. tank, resists). One web and you'll be applying full torp damage to battlecruisers and up.

Back to matari:

Fphoon apparently obsolotes Fpest on Fpests intended role. At least Fpest has its armor alpha niche. But for general use Fphoon seems to be outclassing it. There needs to be some distinction:

For Pest: Get the dmg bonus part to 7.5% per level. I hate to see it outalphaed by maelstorms and abaddons. It is a 10% damage increase (and only 3% more than a regular mael) in total, which is something FPest needs to differentiate from regular pest.

For Phoon: Keep it in its orginal shape 8 4 8. 5/5 turrets/launchers keep new bonuses. Phoon was always about utility. Lets keep its nature on the fleet version.



I was actually editing the post for what i just posted now and I saw your post. Yet with current CM launcher ROF it would be way to powerful but increase the duration of the launchers to 40 seconds and with level 5 skill, it would be 20 seconds.
Right in line with arts.

Edit- I took the bonus damage off torps, and just left it to cruise. With the explosion radius, that would help torps hit well.
Had I had more than 3 hours of sleep in a 48 hour period, i would have just put it all down at one time, but i ended up posting and then correcting multiple times because i kept forgetting to put info down

After level 5 skills with a 40 second RoF time which would reduce the CM launcher to 20 seconds, that actually isnt bad.
The Explo radius could be adjusted a bit, but it would be Arty alpha damage, just not instant and can be speed/sig tanked by smaller ships. Though turrets can insta pop smaller ships.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#1126 - 2013-05-21 06:43:36 UTC
Hagika wrote:

I was actually editing the post for what i just posted now and I saw your post. Yet with current CM launcher ROF it would be way to powerful but increase the duration of the launchers to 40 seconds and with level 5 skill, it would be 20 seconds.
Right in line with arts.

Edit- Of course torp launchers would have to be changed as well unless the damage bonus would be just to cruise launchers.


I think you really need to sleep. Lowering duration(nerfing ROF) on cruises and torps will change all the ships which use them which will create a huge mess with balance.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#1127 - 2013-05-21 06:51:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Hagika
Deerin wrote:
Hagika wrote:

I was actually editing the post for what i just posted now and I saw your post. Yet with current CM launcher ROF it would be way to powerful but increase the duration of the launchers to 40 seconds and with level 5 skill, it would be 20 seconds.
Right in line with arts.

Edit- Of course torp launchers would have to be changed as well unless the damage bonus would be just to cruise launchers.


I think you really need to sleep. Lowering duration(nerfing ROF) on cruises and torps will change all the ships which use them which will create a huge mess with balance.


Yes I do need to sleep and will try but I have had a migraine going on 3 days now and its a ***** to try and sleep.

I didnt calculate for the other ships though a golem would be fun.

Either way, just trying to do something different with battleship missiles.

The last idea was dropping the velocity for a damage bonus which actually would work, either way, I do not want to see the CNR be changed like the proposed CCP change.

It does hinder one of the best ships caldari has.

I started skilling up for torps and cruise and was considering going into the caldari line of ships with my main since i no longer have my caldari pilot.

Though looks like the Phoon will be the next to learn since i spent 2 months learning cruise and torps to 5.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#1128 - 2013-05-21 06:52:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Caitlyn Tufy
Hagika wrote:
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
Can people please stop talking about CNR's velocity bonus like it's only there to add range? If that bonus was extra flight time, it would be crap, but it's higher velocity, therefore it's awesome. Much, much more awesome than most people here seem to realize.


That velocity bonus is the reason why they nerfed the damage to the CNR and pigeon holed it into a cruise boat because of the CM buff.


That velocity bonus was on the old CNR as well, it had nothing to do with the changes. The reason it's awesome is because of CM buff, as the missiles now cross the velocity threshold necessary to hit very fast targets (previously, fast interceptors would outrun missiles). Essentially, that bonus, combined with explosion radius bonus and Precision missiles makes a CNR team nigh untacklable.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#1129 - 2013-05-21 07:08:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Hagika
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
Hagika wrote:
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
Can people please stop talking about CNR's velocity bonus like it's only there to add range? If that bonus was extra flight time, it would be crap, but it's higher velocity, therefore it's awesome. Much, much more awesome than most people here seem to realize.


That velocity bonus is the reason why they nerfed the damage to the CNR and pigeon holed it into a cruise boat because of the CM buff.


That velocity bonus was on the old CNR as well, it had nothing to do with the changes. The reason it's awesome is because of CM buff, as the missiles now cross the velocity threshold necessary to hit very fast targets (previously, fast interceptors would outrun missiles). Essentially, that bonus, combined with explosion radius bonus and Precision missiles makes a CNR team nigh untacklable.


Mal said in a post they nerfed the CNR damage because they didnt want it spitting 1000 dps at 200km out. Which in reality is ridiculous with todays probing and the flight time of missiles.

Umm im pretty sure a frig/ceptor can tackle a raven after the changes.

Missiles are affected by target sig radius and speed. Cruise with precision will not stop them.

It was once claimed the Titanic was unsinkable and an iceberg put it on the ocean floor in 3 hours. Ironically it took 3 years to build.
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1130 - 2013-05-21 09:29:40 UTC
drake duka wrote:

Explosion radius is HUGE for a torp boat, it isn't being "pigeon holed" as a cruise boat imo. It is now way stronger as a cruise boat for obvious reasons and as for torps, explosion radius+range is immensely useful. Even at 100km the old cruises took quite a while to reach their target. I agree that the range bonus is superfluous on a cruise boat but the bonuses are perfect for torps in any real pvp situation. The only time the old cnr would be a better torp boat is if you're running missions so you are able to fit t2 rigors and exp radius implants, otherwise the new cnr is much better most of the time (and you get another med).

CNR will be THE ONLY ship with explosion radius bonus (which again is much better than exp velocity). And yes the typhoon will be OP but I was saying you don't have to deal with the pest fleet issue, also the scorp navy will be a much better shield fleet ship than phoon.

Yeah it got a 9% dps nerf for 30% cruise buff, seems kinda fair to me. Would you really trade 9% dps for 25% exp radius and an extra med slot?

Yes? But then again i don't shoot frigs with battleship launchers... And Raven, which doesn't have any damage application bonuses hits Cruisers just fine on SiSi. Also torps will be much less attractive after the cruise missile changes, especially since you end up with less dps on torp CNR.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1131 - 2013-05-21 09:39:07 UTC
1000 DPS at ~135Km isn't going to fly either.

(IIRC the New Cruise missiles will have a theoretical range of about 140Km - someone correct me if this is wrong?)

Basically the bonused BS missile platforms are all going to have about the same base missile DPS (8 effective launchers)

CNR is going to be the "easymode" ship, where the pilot has to make the least effort and needs the fewest SP to apply this DPS

Fleet Phoon is the "hardmode" ship, where piloting skill and fitting ability will count. The ship is able to apply higher theoretical DPS, but you'll need to work for it, and have a lot of SP invested too.

NavScorp is the "tankmode" ship, which has the lowest damage application ability in return for being as tough as a brick.

Pick the one that suits you.

If you want to invest another 2.5M SP (and more ISK) and you are OK with juggling Target Painters, then the Golem will incrementally outperform the CNR at PvE, which is exactly what a T2 ship should do.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1132 - 2013-05-21 09:59:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnson Oramara
Malcanis wrote:
1000 DPS at ~135Km isn't going to fly either.

(IIRC the New Cruise missiles will have a theoretical range of about 140Km - someone correct me if this is wrong?)

Basically the bonused BS missile platforms are all going to have about the same base missile DPS (8 effective launchers)

CNR is going to be the "easymode" ship, where the pilot has to make the least effort and needs the fewest SP to apply this DPS

Fleet Phoon is the "hardmode" ship, where piloting skill and fitting ability will count. The ship is able to apply higher theoretical DPS, but you'll need to work for it, and have a lot of SP invested too.

NavScorp is the "tankmode" ship, which has the lowest damage application ability in return for being as tough as a brick.

Pick the one that suits you.

If you want to invest another 2.5M SP (and more ISK) and you are OK with juggling Target Painters, then the Golem will incrementally outperform the CNR at PvE, which is exactly what a T2 ship should do.

This is rubbish.

I thought they were supposed to be balanced and suddenly we have these "modes" instead?
Also it must be coincidence that Minmatar gets yet again the best option of these. Where is the Caldari "hardmode" ship?

"Hey there newbie pilot! If you don't want to wait training BS5 for Raven here you have a newbie friendly CNR with FULL DPS on BS2!. Yours now for just €34.99! on top of your monthly subscription!"

Yup.

Edit: Oh, and 1100 DPS at ~105km is fine for TFI? 2 rigs and it has ~965 DPS at 135km. It's also capable of 1360 DPS at 105km if you choose so...
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1133 - 2013-05-21 10:24:02 UTC
Johnson Oramara wrote:

I thought they were supposed to be balanced and suddenly we have these "modes" instead?

I gather from this that to you 'balanced' means 'is the same as'. Good to know.
Jureth22
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1134 - 2013-05-21 10:51:11 UTC
typhoon fleet doesnt have enough pg to fitt a full rack of 1400mm and tank.same problem with normal phoon but that will be based missiles.
Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1135 - 2013-05-21 11:04:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Gimme more Cynos
Malcanis wrote:
1000 DPS at ~135Km isn't going to fly either.

(IIRC the New Cruise missiles will have a theoretical range of about 140Km - someone correct me if this is wrong?)

Basically the bonused BS missile platforms are all going to have about the same base missile DPS (8 effective launchers)

CNR is going to be the "easymode" ship, where the pilot has to make the least effort and needs the fewest SP to apply this DPS

Fleet Phoon is the "hardmode" ship, where piloting skill and fitting ability will count. The ship is able to apply higher theoretical DPS, but you'll need to work for it, and have a lot of SP invested too.

NavScorp is the "tankmode" ship, which has the lowest damage application ability in return for being as tough as a brick.

Pick the one that suits you.

If you want to invest another 2.5M SP (and more ISK) and you are OK with juggling Target Painters, then the Golem will incrementally outperform the CNR at PvE, which is exactly what a T2 ship should do.



What's the difference between CNR and SNI after those changes? The CNR Is the noobship, and the SNI is the tanky noobship which gets the the same damage with more tank at the cost of using one more TP than the CNR?

Seriously?

SERIOUSLY?

EDIT: Also, FACTION - BS's as noobships? Really? I hope you're kidding.
Lugalzagezi666
#1136 - 2013-05-21 12:07:48 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

"easymode"
"hardmode"
"tankmode"

I loled.
Not really. Apparently only winmatar master race deserves to get "hardmode" ships.

Malcanis wrote:
If you want to invest another 2.5M SP (and more ISK) and you are OK with juggling Target Painters, then the Golem will incrementally outperform the CNR at PvE, which is exactly what a T2 ship should do.

I like how suddenly out of blue sky "golem should outperform cnr at pve." Not that there is much difference between juggling 2 and 3 tps.

Also let me guess - juggling target painters is intended mechanics - its basically is eves "minigame" right? Lol
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#1137 - 2013-05-21 12:25:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Caitlyn Tufy
Hagika wrote:
Umm im pretty sure a frig/ceptor can tackle a raven after the changes.

Missiles are affected by target sig radius and speed. Cruise with precision will not stop them.


Can tackle? Yes. Can survive for very long? Nope. I've tried it against a speeding Crow, it went down in 3 shots even when overheating that MWD and bear in mind that unlike turret ships, it doesn't matter where that Crow is, he WILL get hit unless he can burn faster than the missile can fly. It'll last a bit longer with links, but not much longer. So unless you use the boosters, you've got a problem.

[quote]
Malcanis wrote:
CNR is going to be the "easymode" ship, where the pilot has to make the least effort and needs the fewest SP to apply this DPS

Fleet Phoon is the "hardmode" ship, where piloting skill and fitting ability will count. The ship is able to apply higher theoretical DPS, but you'll need to work for it, and have a lot of SP invested too.


Respectfully, I disagree with the "hardmode" - "easymode" distinction. Either a ship has a use or it doesn't, the "tiers" of use are silly. Nothing should innately say "this is a noobship, this is a proship", everything should have its purpose in the grand scheme of things.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1138 - 2013-05-21 13:03:06 UTC
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:

I like how suddenly out of blue sky "golem should outperform cnr at pve." Not that there is much difference between juggling 2 and 3 tps.

Also let me guess - juggling target painters is intended mechanics - its basically is eves "minigame" right? Lol


It's not out of any "blue" i've been saying this for a long time ion this very thread and malcanis didn't just make it up yesterday. People simply got used to the imperfect balance where a Navy Battleship (CNR) was on par with a Tech2 specialized PVE battleship (Golem). You didn't see that anywhere else (the Paladin was hands down better than every Amarr navy BS, the Kronos was better than the Navy Mega etc etc). CCP is just putting the CNR where it should have always been.

I think what's being done to the CNR is basically perfect. However on the off chance they went with the obviously overpowered rof bonus, i'd abuse the hellfire out of that, so it's win/win for me lol.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1139 - 2013-05-21 13:15:12 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
1000 DPS at ~135Km isn't going to fly either.

(IIRC the New Cruise missiles will have a theoretical range of about 140Km - someone correct me if this is wrong?)

Basically the bonused BS missile platforms are all going to have about the same base missile DPS (8 effective launchers)

CNR is going to be the "easymode" ship, where the pilot has to make the least effort and needs the fewest SP to apply this DPS

Fleet Phoon is the "hardmode" ship, where piloting skill and fitting ability will count. The ship is able to apply higher theoretical DPS, but you'll need to work for it, and have a lot of SP invested too.

NavScorp is the "tankmode" ship, which has the lowest damage application ability in return for being as tough as a brick.

Pick the one that suits you.

If you want to invest another 2.5M SP (and more ISK) and you are OK with juggling Target Painters, then the Golem will incrementally outperform the CNR at PvE, which is exactly what a T2 ship should do.


Pure win as far as I'm concerned. I'm going to lulz really hard when people on Tranquility buy up all the Fleet Phoons I'm selling them (I knew all that Tribal Liberation Force LP I'd been hoarding would come in handy one day) to only then realize that "EFT is a LIE!!!!" :) .

Some folks will never realize (or admit) that DPs is only a small part of the whole pie. An ancient Sailing ship was more than just it's sails, an EVE ship is WAY more than it's paper DPS. Speed, maneuverability, tank, size, ease of fitting, bonuses, damage application and dozens of other factors determine how good a ship is, not just DPS. I'm sure the new Floon will be great in certain situations (my current Floon is already great), but to think that because of some EFT numbers it's going to be better than a CNR...well, anyone who thinks that hasn't visited SiSi lately.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1140 - 2013-05-21 13:25:30 UTC
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

"easymode"
"hardmode"
"tankmode"

I loled.
Not really. Apparently only winmatar master race deserves to get "hardmode" ships.

Malcanis wrote:
If you want to invest another 2.5M SP (and more ISK) and you are OK with juggling Target Painters, then the Golem will incrementally outperform the CNR at PvE, which is exactly what a T2 ship should do.

I like how suddenly out of blue sky "golem should outperform cnr at pve." Not that there is much difference between juggling 2 and 3 tps.

Also let me guess - juggling target painters is intended mechanics - its basically is eves "minigame" right? Lol


It is what it is. What do you think T2 ships should be if not ones which excel in their specialities?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016